It is sad HOW mankind will take something and over time espouse and believe it to be totally different than what it really was and is.
The Church (by which I mean the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church referred to in the Nicene Creed, however one defines it ecclesiologically) cannot as a whole fall into error; this would be contrary to Matthew 16:18.
If you really want to know, and thirst for the truth, please follow along:
If we thirst for truth, we must seek to understand how the relevant Scripture has been interpreter always, by everyone, everywhere (St. Vincent of Lerins), because Scripture is found not in the reading but in the interpretation (St. Hilary of Poitiers). We must embrace an exegesis that is continuous with the uninterupted Truth stemming from the early Church.
Now, owing to the fact that Nestorianism, or rather the Nestorian-influenced Christology of Mar Babai, did not become entirely extinct, I cannot fault the Assyrians for holding onto it. However, their Mariology avoids the neo-Antidicomarianism we find in some strands of Protestant theology; even though they say "Christotokos" and not "Theotokos," they continue to venerate St. Mary to a degree on a par with the other ancient churches and with Anglicans and Lutherans.
1. Mary was indeed a righteous woman, NO differently than billions of other women which were also righteous then and now. Sadly, MOST women are NOT righteous. Same for men.
There is in fact a major difference: St. Mary was selected to bear into this world God. It was by Her that He became Incarnate.
2. However, she played and plays NO role in our salvation. Her only connection to salvation is she too was saved in the SAME way ANY one else gets saved. NOTING more-nothing less. God is NOT a respecter of persons.
God is not a respecter of persons, but He is a selector, and He did indeed select St. Mary to be the new Eve, playing a vital role in the restoration of humanity by bearing God Himself into this world. Thus, she is connected to the plan for salvation in this respect, in addition to being saved and glorified by the Incarnation through the consubstantiality God assumed through us in the person of our Lord.
Acts 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: Romans 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God. (Note: they made NO exceptions. Please never lose sight of this.)
This simply means God does not discriminate. He selects each of us to play a different part in His plan for the salvation of humanity. Thus, St. Mary bore our Lord into the world, St. Peter was chosen to lead the holy Apostles, and St. Paul was chosen to bring the Gospel to the gentiles of the Roman Empire(just as St. Thomas was to bring it to the Orient).
3. Mary is NOT "deified" either; as the RCC (cult) has painted her. She is IN the grave waiting to be resurrected, in the "first resurrection", as ALL saved people are, who have died.
The Roman Catholic Church does not regard, and does not worship, St. Mary, as some kind of goddess.
Now, that being said, the Orthodox Church takes a view that the salvation of humanity is accomplished through deification. God became man so that man might become god, wrote St. Athanasius. He did not mean that we would become members of the Trinity; rather He meant that we would become through grace what Christ is by nature; our Lord glorified our fallen humanity by taking it onto Himself, allowing us to become sons of God through adoption.
So it would be entirely compatible with Orthodox Christian theology to say that St. Mary has been deified, along with every other person saved and glorified through the incarnation of our Lord.
4. She can hear NO prayers. She is in a suspended spiritual sleep; as EVERY one who has ever died; EXCEPT for Enoch, Elijah and Moses. ALL others are still IN the grave waiting for the 1st (the saved) or the 2nd (the lost) resurrections separated by a 1,000 yrs (earthly time-one day in Heavenly time).
The doctrine of soul sleep is an innovation; it was not traditionally adhered to by Christianity and does not appear as an exegetical model among the Apostles.
What is more, it is worth noting that in contrast to all other NT saints, no record of the body of St. Mary or relics thereof exists; this absence of a body validates the Orthodox, Catholic and Assyrian account of the Dormition, that upon her death, her physical body was taken up into Heaven.
Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be be with Jesus who is God, and shall (be) with Jesus a thousand years (earthly time-one day Heavenly time).
Then the 2nd resurrection takes place; where ALL unrighteous souls are raised from the dead; and appear at the Great White Throne judgment; along with those who were resurrected in the 1st "calling up"; to be judged where the sheep are totally pardoned and go the NEW Heaven and the lost only receive a partial pardon and go to hell.
This is Chiliasm, and it was rejected decisively by the early Church at the Council of Chalcedon in 381 AD. Many people do not realize this, and many chiliasts inadvertantly confess the Nicene Creed, unaware that the line "and whose kingdom shall have no end" refers speficially to the belief in a literal thousand year millenial rule of our Lord.
The decision to move away from Chiliasm (which we previously do find, for example, in the writings of Sts. Justin Martyr and Irenaeus) stemmed from the embrace of this error in an overly carnal manner by proponents of various fourth century heresies, specifically, Apollinarianism, and, if memory serves, Pneumatomacchianism, which is interesting, in light of this:
Remember Jesus will forgive EVERY sin on Judgment day, except for one.
Mark 3:28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme: Mark 3:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.
(Note: "blaspheming against the Holy Ghost (Spirit) simply means that a person never allows the Holy Spirit to enter their hearts and they die. THAT is the ultimate sin; and thus receives the ultimate punishment! Incidentally: ALL other sins are punished daily from birth to death; either 7 fold or 70 fold (if it is flaunted) for each sin of the flesh.)
I find myself concerned about how this blasphemy might potentially entail adhering to theologies that reject the deity or personality of the Spirit or rejecting the action of the Spirit in guiding the Church.
In the event, it does not seem greatly relevant to this discussion of St. Mary.
5. There is little to no reason for Mary to be mentioned in the 4 "Gospels", since she played NO role in Jesus' ministry.
This is inaccurate. She brought our Lord into this world, she protected and nurtured Him as a child, thus directly facilitating His ministry, and at the Wedding Feast of Cana, was responsible for requesting that he turn the water into wine, which He did.
Thus, she plays a prominent role in the Gospels. We see the conception and birth of our Lord described in particular detail in the Gospel of St. Luke, which also declares that all generations will call her blessed.
We cannot argue with the four Gospels. They are uniquely important and central to Christianity as the primary record of the acts and ministry of our Lord. It is not for us to presume to judge the relative importance of their contents; we can say that everything they contain is included for a reason, and piety compels us to seek to find that reason.
Why, by the way, do you put the word "Gospels," in quotes? These books in several cases, for example, Mark 1:1, identify themselves as being Gospels.
The RCC has painted her into a "saint of saints" and describe and worship her as the "Mother of God".
Not just the Roman Catholics, but the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox, the traditional Lutherans, and the high church Anglicans, among others.
Now, the reason we afford her hyperdoulia (extreme veneration) as the Mother of God is because Jesus Christ is God Incarnate (John 1:1-14). St. Mary was chosen, and accepted the role, of serving as his human mother, allowing God to put on our fallen human nature, taking it onto Himself, restoring and glorifying it through His passion and resurrection.
That is ridiculous and as blasphemous as any thing could be.
You need to tone it down just a bit in the criticism of other denomination. We don't accuse other Christians of blasphemy, call them ridiculous, or describe their denomination as a cult on CF.com.
6. Worse: Is the Billions of gullible and foolish people who have bought into this garbage for 1600 years. They will ALL know how brain washed they were. Oh indeed Yes!
You must tone down the rhetoric. It is not proper to accuse other Chrisrians of believing in "garbage" or to accuse them of having been brainwashed. If we allowed that, then every side would accuse the other side of that, and as a result there would be no civil discourse anywhere on CF.com.
Again, she was truly a righteous woman, but that is where it stops. Jesus HAD to come into this world IN human form as we did, with one exception. He chose a woman of course, as the vehicle for this miracle. But.............He could NOT be conceived as we are thus she HAD to be a virgin. The reason is: IF he had been conceived through a male "seed" impregnating a female "egg"; He would NOT have been allowed to become the unblemished "Lamb of God" sacrifice (because of the Levitical Law). For He would have inherited the sinful genes of BOTH Joseph and Mary if He had been conceived; and thus been blemished; and NO way could He have been used for the atonement for sin. No way!
So a miracle happened; where Jesus simply placed his fleshly being (fetus) IN her womb; with NO sign of genes or DNA. In this way He was totally void of ANY worldly desires, sins or deeds; and He became the final "Lamb sacrifice" that would EVER be needed again. Praise Jesus' Holy Name.
Now, there is a problem with this argument. I will not speculate as to how the paternal aspect of the conception of our Lord was accomplished. I will say, however, that He was fully and perfectly human, and thus did experience worldly desires; however, He did not sin or succumb to these desires.
Our Lord would not be in a position to save us except by being concurrently, perfectly God and perfectly human. Not a mixture, not with the appearance of humanity or with a modified humanity, but with the real deal.
It is almost without question that He, at a minimum, had DNA and genetics from St. Mary. Otherwise, his entire ancestry going back to King David would have no meaning.
Note: Jesus HAD to become a fleshly being because a spirit feels NO pain. Since pain is required for the justification of sin; He could not simply pardon the saved, without someone paying the painful penalty.
This is an extreme extrapolation of the satisfaction soteriology, penal substitutionary atonement, that derives from St. Anselm of Canterbury. The Orthodox Church rejects this.
Rather, we say that our God became man in order to take our fallen humanity unto Himself, purifying it, glorifying it and restoring it, allowing us to become sons of God through adoption, by grace what He is by nature.
That God would care so much for humans that He would become one of us, and take all of our sufferings onto Himself, is central to understanding the mystery of the Incarnation.
Once one understands this, the theology of the Council of Ephesus, including the term Theotokos, or Mother of God, becomes clear and obvious.
Thus He was the ONLY fleshly being that could ever do that; since NO one else could ever have survived the pain. It was simply TOO great.
The problem here is that you seem to imply a unique ability by our Lord to withstand pain, in excess of the capabilities of humanity, and this is problematic, Christologically, as it is contrary to the idea of Him being perfectly human and perfectly God; the union of the two natures must be understood as occuring in the Incarnation without change, confusion, separation or division (this common formula by the way is held in common by Oriental Orthodox, Chalcedonians, and the Assyrian followers of the Nestorian-influenced Christology of Mar Babai and has become central to the process of ecumenical reconciliation).
Thus: I believe that while IN the tomb, He was taken to hell for eternity in essence: and felt the pain multiplied by the amount of people that would be saved; in a "burning lake of fire" (hell); even though it was only 3 physical days on earth.
This idea is not supported by the actual Gospels. It baffles me that you appear to criticize the Gospels for the attention they give to St. Mary, and then embrace an idea concerning soteriology which is not explicitly stated or even implied in the text.
I also believe this is why He cried out on the cross, because He knew that IF He did not go through with it, NO one could be saved. Praise His precious Holy Name for what He chose to do.
However, there is a problem with this: God is a Trinity, of three persons, who must be united in perfect Love. Jesus Christ is the Son of God. God the Father could not do that to His only begotten son and remain truly loving.
The unity of love in the Trinity must be absolute, for this is the template for the unity of love between humans.
What is more, God is omnipotent, so it not bound in how He would save humanity. The manner in which He chose to not only save but to glorify us and deify us is integral to creation; however we cannot interpret this action as violating divine love, because the omnipotence of God and His perfectly loving nature requires us to not attribute to God the Father anything but perfect Love for His Son and His Spirit.
Only a truly "Loving God" could EVER do that!
I agree, which is why I reject your assertion that St. Mary is not the Mother of God. For if only a truly loving God could do that, and Jesus Christ is that God, it follows that she, being the mother of Jesus, is the mother of God.
Thus Mary, or NO one else, played a role in the atonement for ultimate sin.
Everyone involved in the scenario of the Passion of our Lord "played a role" in it, even villains such as Caiaphas. However, St. Mary directly facilitated the saving passion of our Lord by complying with the will of God by bearing Him into this world.
This is why Jesus said what He said, when Mary and Jesus' symbolic "brothers and sisters" (brethren) told a disciple to tell Jesus they wanted to talk to him. Notice the stern "put-down" of them and their rebuke; since He was MUCH too busy to talk with them then; because He was trying to save the souls of the large multitude of lost souls surrounding Him. The same kind of rebuke; when Jesus was 12 and His symbolic father and mother wanted to talk to him; when he was talking to the elders of the temple.
Matthew 12:48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
Luke 2:49 And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business? Matthew 12:49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! Matthew 12:50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.
(The will of the Father was for everyone to believe IN Jesus who was God manifest IN the flesh.)
These two verses are very deep; and their depth of meaning has been missed by MOST Christians and even preachers sadly. What Jesus meant was: I am IN this world with you, but I am NOT "of" this world. This means He was NOT the child of Joseph and Mary; nor was he "kin" to the children that Joseph would sire and Mary would bear, AFTER Jesus was born.
You quote these verses, yet earlier you seemed to express an editorial view spurning their relevance to the four Gospels.
For He was GOD Almighty, manifest IN the flesh, for a scant 30 yrs. ALL will know this to be truth absolute on Judgment day. Oh indeed yes.
You say that, and I agree (except it was 33 years), but, you then deny that Mary is the Mother of God.
If God Almighty is manifest in the Flesh, it is quite obvious that St. Mary having given birth to Him and having been referred to in the Gospels as His Mother, is the Mother of God.
The idea that she is not directly contradicts His incarnation. This is why we reject Nestorianism.
