Mary - Christian Prototype

[paul becke]

'This is not say that Mary did not have an important role in history (she did), but this is elevating Mary to a place the Bible never elevates her.'

So many of you take the Bible to be the be-all and end-all of God's revelation to us, wthout even understanding the depth and richness of what it contains, and how to even approach reading it. It should not be read in the same way as a washing-machine handbook. In other words, it appeals, it addresses, not merely our superficial, analytical intelligence, but rather, primarily our spiritual understanding. Jesus, himself, could have explained himself very much more clearly on numerous occasions, but he chose not to. He wanted us to learn humility, to realise that we would not be able to understand all the scriptures straight away.

Take the issue of eating his body and drinking his blood. He could have explained it, as it was to be taught by the Catholic church, after his death and Ascension, but he let the self-confident professional religious dismiss it as what it appeared to be on the surface : nonsense ; cannibalism, even. I believe sola scriptura-type Protestants, to this day refuse to take Jesus' words at the Last Supper seriously.

How can they when they seem incapable of looking beneath the surface for tacit implications, such as, for example, the fact that we are told that Jesus' birth was first announced by angels to a few shepherds, so low in the worldly pecking-order that, as still happens to day, they were regarded as virtual criminals. That might have come about, someone suggested, because the occasional sheep or goat went missing (like the proverbial 'homework eaten by the dog', or as we say in the UK, 'it must have fallen off the back of a lorry).

What this world considers mere nothings will mostly be Big Wheels in the next life, while hot-shots, who disparage them as panhandlers will have a hard time persuading St Peter at the Pearly Gates. That is a theme well-worked in scripture, but one very seldom hears it expressly stated by 'sola scriptura people' any more than others that, while there are good rich people and bad poor people, the general trend is the converse, and to adapt an aphorism of Damon Runyon taken from Ecclesiastes 9:11 : ' The race Is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong; but that is the best way to bet.' ('Again I saw under the sun that the race is not to the swift, or the battle to the strong, or bread to the wise, or riches to the discerning, or favor to the skillful; rather, time and chance happen to all of them'). Fraud, violence, extortion, wickedness are frequently placed in apposition to the 'rich man' ; while the virtuous man, the True Israel, is similalrly placed in apposition to 'the poor man'. So, even knowledge, hidden in plain view is as likely to be overlooked by 'sola scriptura' types as it is by others.

On the other hand, those whom the Pharisees and elders considered a 'rabble', who yet followed Jesus, continued to follow him, obviously reflecting perhaps without the benefit of even a modicum of knowledge of the scriptures, or a higher education : 'We have seen this man perform enough marvelous works and speak with such authority to just put that on the 'back-burner' for now. Perhaps he will explain it, or it will become clearer, in the future.

A crucial point such Protestants refuse to take on board is that the very canon of scripture was assembled by the early, i.e.Catholic, church, and the Holy Spirit was hardly likely to refuse his light to it, thereafter - both Catholic, and to an extent, some Protestant churches, which at various times were to help correct imbalances that 'the traditions of men' had brought about in the Mother Church.

 

[Francisco36842]

Close to the very heart of the Christian story is a woman. She is integrally involved in the birth of Jesus, in a way that leaves the rest of us wondering what it must be like to be so close. She is personally involved in the events at Calvary, and is one of a few people addressed personally directly by Jesus from the cross. She was there at the first miracle in Cana of Galilee.

She is interestingly a source of significant division within Christianity, and regarded by many, not so much as the mother of our saviour as a dead Roman Catholic.

According to the received traditions she lived out her years in Ephesus, in company with John, the Apostle, in what is seen as the fulfilment of Jesus wishes from the Cross. Given the close association with John the Apostle and the Fourth Gospel, it is indeed interesting that John never refers to her by name, and she appears twice in the Gospel, in the Wedding at Cana in Galilee and at the Cross. It is left to Luke to tell us the accounts of the Annunciation, the Visitation, The Pondering, the Birth, The Presentation. Whilst women are more important in Luke's account, they are by no means absent in John's account. Perhaps it was something of a protection of her that lead to John's account not placing her front and centre.

Paul presents the Gospel without any accounting for Mary. Paul's account of the Gospel is clearly and centrally focused on the cross and resurrection. There is no doubt that the Apostolic Church had a hard cutting edge Gospel that was in a sense quite masculine, and indeed at times almost brutal. The early Church fathers saw Mary as a figure in the account rise to a higher level of prominence, and increasingly it was acknowledged that to understand the Cross and the Atonement you had to understand int Incarnation, and at the centre of understanding the Incarnation is the biggest yes in history. Indeed, the prominence of the incarnation in the Prologue of John's Gospel in that sense underlines Mary's role by not calling her out by name.

‘Here am I, the servant of the Lord; let it be with me according to your word.’​

View attachment 190074​

She is for us the very Icon of the Church, she responds in obedience and brings Christ into the world. The role of the Church is absolutely to respond in obedience and bring Christ into the world.

In a very real way she is the prototype for every Christian, as we are all called to respond in obedience and bring Christ into the world.

How is it that this woman who means so much in the outworking of our salvation could be the cause of so much derision and division within the body of Christ - the Church?

Interestingly, my parents worshiped saints, virgins, and appearances when I was a child. I would ask my dear mom if these saints, virgins, and appearances she prayed to could actually hear and respond. She would not commit to a definite answer, but she was always lighting candles to the virgin Mary and praying to her as a goddess. Then, she added another virgin named Virgin de la Guadalupe, and another La Macarena, and so on. She had a list of all the Roman Catholic saints she prayed to for specific things. Later, I began reading the Bible in my early teens and found a disturbing passage in the N.T., 2 Timothy 2:5-6, "For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for all , to be testified in due time,. . ." When I showed this verse to my dear mom, it impacted her profoundly. All this time her focus had been the Virgin Mary, her saints, her lighted candles, and praying to them. Mom realized how she was violating the first of the Ten Commandments by assigning the category of deity to the Virgin Mary and other virgins and the saints. It was very difficult for her to let go of the Virgin Mary idolatry, but she eventually stopped praying to her, the other virgins, and the list of Roman Catholic saints. My dear mom later told me that she realized that Mary was not the center of the Incarnation but just a vehicle used by God, and for her to raise her up to the prominence of deity or as an idol was wrong since Mary had sons and daughters. She explained that she had equated holiness with virginity and had made Mary to be more holy than any woman, when in fact she was a sinner, just like her husband Joseph, in need of a holy, sinless Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ. She asked me, "Do you know who died on the Cross of Calvary? Not the virgin Mary or any other virgins, nor the Roman Catholic saints, nor appearances or apparitions. Who died for us was our Lord Jesus Christ."

Philip B., fortunately Mary is not "the Icon of the Church" if you meant the true followers of Christ do not follow the dictums or creeds or councils of early church fathers, since in reality, Christ did not come to establish a denominational religion, but he came to establish an open door for any person to enter into a vibrant RELATIONSHIP

 

[paul becke]

Actually the proper understanding starts with God's messenger making a declaration about Her, which is rather unique to Her alone and to no better favor to any other human save remarks made about Her Son.
That He gave Her to us (the Body of believers) as our Mother is a part of the message taken from a view of His final Words to Saint John (please note I said "a part of").

That some apparently think it would do some great harm seeing Her as a Mother, who we could appeal to in prayer for Her Prayers for our benefit seems odd given the apparent willingness of most Christians to even ask total strangers to pray for them. These things are at the heart of the quotes you gave from a Saint and must be part of any attempt to understand those quotes, otherwise one is putting words in the mouth of someone clearly not present on CF to defend themselves.

I have never yet received a reply from a Marian putative iconoclast when I asked them when was the last time they glorified Mary, in accordance with the words of her Magnificat, to the effect that all generations would call her blessed. Those words were clearly utterd under 'extreme' inspiration.

I believe Sister Lucia, if not all the Fatima children, stated that the final battle against Satan would be in relation to the family, and I think Protestants who denounce the high honour in which Mary is held by Catholics as idolatrous, are unwittingly giving aid and comfort to the enemy in this the culmination of all the battles and wars of mankind against the forces of darkness. Family obviously means as much and more to God as to any human beings in the most loving of earthly families.

 

[chevyontheriver]

The problem with your premise is that nowhere does God tell us not to pray to someone, pray being an English word meaning "ask". God tells us not to worship anything or anyone on earth. But to ask Mary to intercede for us to her son, just as the example of the steward at the wedding in Cana did, is not the same as worship.
In other words, we don't worship Mary. We hold her higher than anyone born of a husband and wife, but not to the level of God.

It's an ingrained language problem. To a hardened Protestant 'to pray' is 'to worship'. They are one and the same to them. Never mind the history of words in the English language. So when they hear of us praying to Mary or any saint they see it as us worshiping them, deifying them. Then we wonder what planet they are from that they think we think Mary is God. We're just practicing the communion of the saints. There is no solution. Well, there is, but it expects a lot of people to be willing to learn that we Catholics and Protestants speak somewhat different languages using the same words. So, practically there is no solution. I used to think there was some hope of Christians being reconciled to one another. For the most part that hope is gone for me. Few want to understand the other. It's more fun to score points.

 

[Philip_B]

Philip B., fortunately Mary is not "the Icon of the Church" if you meant the true followers of Christ do not follow the dictums or creeds or councils of early church fathers, since in reality, Christ did not come to establish a denominational religion, but he came to establish an open door for any person to enter into a vibrant RELATIONSHIP

I don't believe that I have said or implied that in any way. Obedience to God, and bringing Christ into a broken world, are clearly the marks that I identified, and indeed those marks represent the open door for a vibrant and loving relationship with God in Christ Jesus our Lord. I don't think that we can form a satisfactory understanding of the atonement, without a proper understanding of the incarnation. I agree absolutely at the centre of our faith is the person of Jesus, God from before the beginning. And if I recall I think my opening words were Close to the very heart of the Christian story and I think we are agreed. Thank you for sharing the story of your Mum, much of our faith is caught from, not taught by, those we love and care about.

 

[david.d]

I would be curious to better understand your statement. When do you think the Roman Catholic Church was begun (I have an idea what you think, but I want to hear it from the horse's mouth). And what do you mean by "the Church" that preceded the RCC? Do you mean Episcopalian, Baptist, Methodist, Fundamentalist, Nazarene, Lutheran....what?

Believe it or not,

I would be curious to better understand your statement. When do you think the Roman Catholic Church was begun (I have an idea what you think, but I want to hear it from the horse's mouth). And what do you mean by "the Church" that preceded the RCC? Do you mean Episcopalian, Baptist, Methodist, Fundamentalist, Nazarene, Lutheran....what?

I guess technically you could say the Roman Catholic Church began the day paganism began, since Catholic literally means universal in Greek and was meant to be a universal religion, not solely based on Christianity. But specifically, the Roman Catholic Church didn't begin until the Romans began legislating Christianity.

The first church was just called the church. People over time split off and gave it labels, just as some of those you listed split off from Protestants who split off from the Catholics.

I'm fairly certain if the church was always called Catholic it would be mentioned in the Bible.

 

[Your Alli]

Close to the very heart of the Christian story is a woman. She is integrally involved in the birth of Jesus, in a way that leaves the rest of us wondering what it must be like to be so close. She is personally involved in the events at Calvary, and is one of a few people addressed personally directly by Jesus from the cross. She was there at the first miracle in Cana of Galilee.

She is interestingly a source of significant division within Christianity, and regarded by many, not so much as the mother of our saviour as a dead Roman Catholic.

According to the received traditions she lived out her years in Ephesus, in company with John, the Apostle, in what is seen as the fulfilment of Jesus wishes from the Cross. Given the close association with John the Apostle and the Fourth Gospel, it is indeed interesting that John never refers to her by name, and she appears twice in the Gospel, in the Wedding at Cana in Galilee and at the Cross. It is left to Luke to tell us the accounts of the Annunciation, the Visitation, The Pondering, the Birth, The Presentation. Whilst women are more important in Luke's account, they are by no means absent in John's account. Perhaps it was something of a protection of her that lead to John's account not placing her front and centre.

Paul presents the Gospel without any accounting for Mary. Paul's account of the Gospel is clearly and centrally focused on the cross and resurrection. There is no doubt that the Apostolic Church had a hard cutting edge Gospel that was in a sense quite masculine, and indeed at times almost brutal. The early Church fathers saw Mary as a figure in the account rise to a higher level of prominence, and increasingly it was acknowledged that to understand the Cross and the Atonement you had to understand int Incarnation, and at the centre of understanding the Incarnation is the biggest yes in history. Indeed, the prominence of the incarnation in the Prologue of John's Gospel in that sense underlines Mary's role by not calling her out by name.

‘Here am I, the servant of the Lord; let it be with me according to your word.’​

View attachment 190074​

She is for us the very Icon of the Church, she responds in obedience and brings Christ into the world. The role of the Church is absolutely to respond in obedience and bring Christ into the world.

In a very real way she is the prototype for every Christian, as we are all called to respond in obedience and bring Christ into the world.

How is it that this woman who means so much in the outworking of our salvation could be the cause of so much derision and division within the body of Christ - the Church?

Why there is division within the church wrt Mary ..?

Firstly, this is precisely done, to ensure that Mary is forever respected.

Secondly, just like Christ the Lord was given His eternal prize after His work was complete, she also follows.

As to Paul and John, the essence of humanity is to love Christ, more and more daily.

So there lack of focus on Mary within their writings, was to ensure, the above statement. (Love Christ more and more daily)

Final ...just like humanity cannot understand the height of glory and power given to Christ by God the Father, so it is with the prize given to Mary for fulfilling her part in God's overall plan to save humanity.

Your Alli

 

[Root of Jesse]

There are actually several faithful women in the Bible besides Mary. Women such as Ruth, Hannah, Esther, Priscilla, Mary Magdalene, Rahab, Deborah, Abigail, etc.

None of whom gave birth to our Savior...

 

[Light of the East]

They may have been "full of grace", after all, they are believers, I presume.

Christ is the new Adam and Mary was His mother, that's all we know for sure. Jesus paid it all, and lived the perfect life that Adam failed to do. No need for a new Eve.

So you would let the devil win by not allowing Christ to restore everything as it was before the Fall? Is that what you are saying?

Instead of pushing out your anti-Catholic knee-jerk reaction, why don't you go get a nice Yuengling Lager and a good cigar and sit and ponder what it means that Christ is the LAST Adam (not the "new" Adam - please learn to quote scripture correctly!).

Ponder on why it is that He has to be "Adam" at all.

What does the title "Adam" mean?

What are the responsibilities that Adam has?

If Adam has a "helpmeet" in Eve, then doesn't the Last Adam also need a helpmeet in order for Him to be a complete fulfillment of the old Adam? If not, why?

What plans did God have for Adam and Eve? (HINT: 2 Peter 1:4) How can the Last Adam fulfill these plans for Adam and Eve without having a New Eve?

How does the familial structure of the Garden family relate to the familial structure of the Church?

Quick answers are seldom right. You need to spend some time on this subject.

 

[Light of the East]

This is not say that Mary did not have an important role in history (she did), but this is elevating Mary to a place the Bible never elevates her.

You do not understand the Bible, thus you make this statement.

She is the Queen of Heaven and Earth. That is what God had planned for Adam and Eve (He to be King, She to be Queen) if they had not fallen. They were to be sub-regent to God's Kingship over all Creation, a study of which you could understand by examining Suzerainty kingships of the OT.

Jesus, the man, is the King of Creation now. As a man, He has fulfilled all that Adam failed to do, and has been elevated to that position of rulership that Adam could have had. Mary is the New Eve, and hence is also the Queen that Eve could have been.

You have to study scripture to understand this, not listen to Jack Chick comics.

 

[Root of Jesse]

No, she is not. That would be idolatry.

Quite judgemental.

If Mary is a "prototype" why is there so little about her in the Bible?

This claim that Mary is a "prototype" is completely false. Christians follow Jesus Christ and are to be Christ-like, not Mary-like. Nowhere in the Bible are we told to imitate Mary. And I imagine Mary, if she could speak to us now, would say, "Don't look to me, look to Jesus, He is God not me!"

This is not say that Mary did not have an important role in history (she did), but this is elevating Mary to a place the Bible never elevates her.

Mary points us to Jesus, nothing more. Even in her apparitions, she points to her son.

 

[patdee]

Close to the very heart of the Christian story is a woman. She is integrally involved in the birth of Jesus, in a way that leaves the rest of us wondering what it must be like to be so close. She is personally involved in the events at Calvary, and is one of a few people addressed personally directly by Jesus from the cross. She was there at the first miracle in Cana of Galilee.

She is interestingly a source of significant division within Christianity, and regarded by many, not so much as the mother of our saviour as a dead Roman Catholic.

According to the received traditions she lived out her years in Ephesus, in company with John, the Apostle, in what is seen as the fulfilment of Jesus wishes from the Cross. Given the close association with John the Apostle and the Fourth Gospel, it is indeed interesting that John never refers to her by name, and she appears twice in the Gospel, in the Wedding at Cana in Galilee and at the Cross. It is left to Luke to tell us the accounts of the Annunciation, the Visitation, The Pondering, the Birth, The Presentation. Whilst women are more important in Luke's account, they are by no means absent in John's account. Perhaps it was something of a protection of her that lead to John's account not placing her front and centre.

Paul presents the Gospel without any accounting for Mary. Paul's account of the Gospel is clearly and centrally focused on the cross and resurrection. There is no doubt that the Apostolic Church had a hard cutting edge Gospel that was in a sense quite masculine, and indeed at times almost brutal. The early Church fathers saw Mary as a figure in the account rise to a higher level of prominence, and increasingly it was acknowledged that to understand the Cross and the Atonement you had to understand int Incarnation, and at the centre of understanding the Incarnation is the biggest yes in history. Indeed, the prominence of the incarnation in the Prologue of John's Gospel in that sense underlines Mary's role by not calling her out by name.

‘Here am I, the servant of the Lord; let it be with me according to your word.’​

View attachment 190074​

She is for us the very Icon of the Church, she responds in obedience and brings Christ into the world. The role of the Church is absolutely to respond in obedience and bring Christ into the world.

In a very real way she is the prototype for every Christian, as we are all called to respond in obedience and bring Christ into the world.

How is it that this woman who means so much in the outworking of our salvation could be the cause of so much derision and division within the body of Christ - the Church?

It is sad HOW mankind will take something and over time espouse and believe it to be totally different than what it really was and is.

If you really want to know, and thirst for the truth, please follow along:

1. Mary was indeed a righteous woman, NO differently than billions of other women which were also righteous then and now. Sadly, MOST women are NOT righteous. Same for men.

2. However, she played and plays NO role in our salvation. Her only connection to salvation is she too was saved in the SAME way ANY one else gets saved. NOTING more-nothing less. God is NOT a respecter of persons.

Acts 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: Romans 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God. (Note: they made NO exceptions. Please never lose sight of this.)

3. Mary is NOT "deified" either; as the RCC (cult) has painted her. She is IN the grave waiting to be resurrected, in the "first resurrection", as ALL saved people are, who have died.

4. She can hear NO prayers. She is in a suspended spiritual sleep; as EVERY one who has ever died; EXCEPT for Enoch, Elijah and Moses. ALL others are still IN the grave waiting for the 1st (the saved) or the 2nd (the lost) resurrections separated by a 1,000 yrs (earthly time-one day in Heavenly time).

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be be with Jesus who is God, and shall (be) with Jesus a thousand years (earthly time-one day Heavenly time).

Then the 2nd resurrection takes place; where ALL unrighteous souls are raised from the dead; and appear at the Great White Throne judgment; along with those who were resurrected in the 1st "calling up"; to be judged where the sheep are totally pardoned and go the NEW Heaven and the lost only receive a partial pardon and go to hell. Remember Jesus will forgive EVERY sin on Judgment day, except for one.

Mark 3:28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme: Mark 3:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.

(Note: "blaspheming against the Holy Ghost (Spirit) simply means that a person never allows the Holy Spirit to enter their hearts and they die. THAT is the ultimate sin; and thus receives the ultimate punishment! Incidentally: ALL other sins are punished daily from birth to death; either 7 fold or 70 fold (if it is flaunted) for each sin of the flesh.)

5. There is little to no reason for Mary to be mentioned in the 4 "Gospels", since she played NO role in Jesus' ministry. The RCC has painted her into a "saint of saints" and describe and worship her as the "Mother of God". That is ridiculous and as blasphemous as any thing could be.

6. Worse: Is the Billions of gullible and foolish people who have bought into this garbage for 1600 years. They will ALL know how brain washed they were. Oh indeed Yes!

Again, she was truly a righteous woman, but that is where it stops. Jesus HAD to come into this world IN human form as we did, with one exception. He chose a woman of course, as the vehicle for this miracle. But.............He could NOT be conceived as we are thus she HAD to be a virgin. The reason is: IF he had been conceived through a male "seed" impregnating a female "egg"; He would NOT have been allowed to become the unblemished "Lamb of God" sacrifice (because of the Levitical Law). For He would have inherited the sinful genes of BOTH Joseph and Mary if He had been conceived; and thus been blemished; and NO way could He have been used for the atonement for sin. No way!

So a miracle happened; where Jesus simply placed his fleshly being (fetus) IN her womb; with NO sign of genes or DNA. In this way He was totally void of ANY worldly desires, sins or deeds; and He became the final "Lamb sacrifice" that would EVER be needed again. Praise Jesus' Holy Name.

Note: Jesus HAD to become a fleshly being because a spirit feels NO pain. Since pain is required for the justification of sin; He could not simply pardon the saved, without someone paying the painful penalty. Thus He was the ONLY fleshly being that could ever do that; since NO one else could ever have survived the pain. It was simply TOO great. Thus: I believe that while IN the tomb, He was taken to hell for eternity in essence: and felt the pain multiplied by the amount of people that would be saved; in a "burning lake of fire" (hell); even though it was only 3 physical days on earth. I also believe this is why He cried out on the cross, because He knew that IF He did not go through with it, NO one could be saved. Praise His precious Holy Name for what He chose to do.

Only a truly "Loving God" could EVER do that!

Thus Mary, or NO one else, played a role in the atonement for ultimate sin. This is why Jesus said what He said, when Mary and Jesus' symbolic "brothers and sisters" (brethren) told a disciple to tell Jesus they wanted to talk to him. Notice the stern "put-down" of them and their rebuke; since He was MUCH too busy to talk with them then; because He was trying to save the souls of the large multitude of lost souls surrounding Him. The same kind of rebuke; when Jesus was 12 and His symbolic father and mother wanted to talk to him; when he was talking to the elders of the temple.

Matthew 12:48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?

Luke 2:49 And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business? Matthew 12:49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! Matthew 12:50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

(The will of the Father was for everyone to believe IN Jesus who was God manifest IN the flesh.)

These two verses are very deep; and their depth of meaning has been missed by MOST Christians and even preachers sadly. What Jesus meant was: I am IN this world with you, but I am NOT "of" this world. This means He was NOT the child of Joseph and Mary; nor was he "kin" to the children that Joseph would sire and Mary would bear, AFTER Jesus was born.

For He was GOD Almighty, manifest IN the flesh, for a scant 30 yrs. ALL will know this to be truth absolute on Judgment day. Oh indeed yes.

1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was "manifest in the flesh", justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

In any case, May Jesus richly bless you and yours always.

 

[kimberlyw]

Close to the very heart of the Christian story is a woman. She is integrally involved in the birth of Jesus, in a way that leaves the rest of us wondering what it must be like to be so close. She is personally involved in the events at Calvary, and is one of a few people addressed personally directly by Jesus from the cross. She was there at the first miracle in Cana of Galilee.

She is interestingly a source of significant division within Christianity, and regarded by many, not so much as the mother of our saviour as a dead Roman Catholic.

According to the received traditions she lived out her years in Ephesus, in company with John, the Apostle, in what is seen as the fulfilment of Jesus wishes from the Cross. Given the close association with John the Apostle and the Fourth Gospel, it is indeed interesting that John never refers to her by name, and she appears twice in the Gospel, in the Wedding at Cana in Galilee and at the Cross. It is left to Luke to tell us the accounts of the Annunciation, the Visitation, The Pondering, the Birth, The Presentation. Whilst women are more important in Luke's account, they are by no means absent in John's account. Perhaps it was something of a protection of her that lead to John's account not placing her front and centre.

Paul presents the Gospel without any accounting for Mary. Paul's account of the Gospel is clearly and centrally focused on the cross and resurrection. There is no doubt that the Apostolic Church had a hard cutting edge Gospel that was in a sense quite masculine, and indeed at times almost brutal. The early Church fathers saw Mary as a figure in the account rise to a higher level of prominence, and increasingly it was acknowledged that to understand the Cross and the Atonement you had to understand int Incarnation, and at the centre of understanding the Incarnation is the biggest yes in history. Indeed, the prominence of the incarnation in the Prologue of John's Gospel in that sense underlines Mary's role by not calling her out by name.

‘Here am I, the servant of the Lord; let it be with me according to your word.’​

View attachment 190074​

She is for us the very Icon of the Church, she responds in obedience and brings Christ into the world. The role of the Church is absolutely to respond in obedience and bring Christ into the world.

In a very real way she is the prototype for every Christian, as we are all called to respond in obedience and bring Christ into the world.

How is it that this woman who means so much in the outworking of our salvation could be the cause of so much derision and division within the body of Christ - the Church?

Close to the very heart of the Christian story is a woman. She is integrally involved in the birth of Jesus, in a way that leaves the rest of us wondering what it must be like to be so close. She is personally involved in the events at Calvary, and is one of a few people addressed personally directly by Jesus from the cross. She was there at the first miracle in Cana of Galilee.

She is interestingly a source of significant division within Christianity, and regarded by many, not so much as the mother of our saviour as a dead Roman Catholic.

According to the received traditions she lived out her years in Ephesus, in company with John, the Apostle, in what is seen as the fulfilment of Jesus wishes from the Cross. Given the close association with John the Apostle and the Fourth Gospel, it is indeed interesting that John never refers to her by name, and she appears twice in the Gospel, in the Wedding at Cana in Galilee and at the Cross. It is left to Luke to tell us the accounts of the Annunciation, the Visitation, The Pondering, the Birth, The Presentation. Whilst women are more important in Luke's account, they are by no means absent in John's account. Perhaps it was something of a protection of her that lead to John's account not placing her front and centre.

Paul presents the Gospel without any accounting for Mary. Paul's account of the Gospel is clearly and centrally focused on the cross and resurrection. There is no doubt that the Apostolic Church had a hard cutting edge Gospel that was in a sense quite masculine, and indeed at times almost brutal. The early Church fathers saw Mary as a figure in the account rise to a higher level of prominence, and increasingly it was acknowledged that to understand the Cross and the Atonement you had to understand int Incarnation, and at the centre of understanding the Incarnation is the biggest yes in history. Indeed, the prominence of the incarnation in the Prologue of John's Gospel in that sense underlines Mary's role by not calling her out by name.

‘Here am I, the servant of the Lord; let it be with me according to your word.’​

View attachment 190074​

She is for us the very Icon of the Church, she responds in obedience and brings Christ into the world. The role of the Church is absolutely to respond in obedience and bring Christ into the world.

In a very real way she is the prototype for every Christian, as we are all called to respond in obedience and bring Christ into the world.

How is it that this woman who means so much in the outworking of our salvation could be the cause of so much derision and division within the body of Christ - the Church?

I think that we women, even though we are not to covet, sort of wish we were so lucky to carry Jesus! Can you imagine? Amazing. But as far as division goes, Christ creates division too at times... personally I think admiring her position reminds us of How Holy Jesus is. It's beautiful, her story. Every mother understands and yet doesnt. She is a blessed woman.

 

[Philip_B]

2. However, she played and plays NO role in our salvation. Her only connection to salvation is she too was saved in the SAME way ANY one else gets saved. NOTING more-nothing less. God is NOT a respecter of persons.

The only way I see that possible is if the incarnation has no bearing on atonement. When Anselm, sometime Archbishop of Canterbury, wrote Cur Deus Homo - Why God became man - I believe he sought to address that very question. Mary is not an empty vessel devoid of will or choice, and yet everything about her points to and leads to Jesus. Most of your posts addresses matter that were not part of the OP.
There is more that unites us than tears us apart.

For us men and for our salvation
he came down from heaven:
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he was born of the Virgin Mary, and became man.​

 

[~Anastasia~]

Why there is division within the church wrt Mary ..?

Firstly, this is precisely done, to ensure that Mary is forever respected.

Secondly, just like Christ the Lord was given His eternal prize after His work was complete, she also follows.

As to Paul and John, the essence of humanity is to love Christ, more and more daily.

So there lack of focus on Mary within their writings, was to ensure, the above statement. (Love Christ more and more daily)

Final ...just like humanity cannot understand the height of glory and power given to Christ by God the Father, so it is with the prize given to Mary for fulfilling her part in God's overall plan to save humanity.

Your Alli

Hello Your Alli, and welcome to CF!

I wonder too why there is such division among Christians with regard to Mary.

I think maybe it is because she is the first thing that comes to the mind of many Protestants when they consider what they disagree with Catholics about.

I think too there is a VERY GREAT DEAL of misunderstanding. I see many people argue against something someone else says, and I can see that they don't even understand what the first person meant by what they said. In some cases I know they wouldn't argue, if they knew what they were arguing against (at least I hope not!).

But there are false teachers who have gone out, telling lies about what (usually) Catholics believe. And people seem to almost always just believe what they are told, instead of bothering to find out the truth.

I'm not Catholic. I don't agree with Catholics on a number of things. But I know pretty well what they really believe, and why I don't agree on those things, and most of them are smaller than Protestants believe their differences with Catholics are. I still consider anyone - Catholic, Protestant, or Orthodox - to be my brother or sister in Christ if they claim Him. Only God can judge.

But people get very zealous to argue don't they? So often without understanding first. God help us all.

Anyway, welcome to CF. I did not want your comment to go unanswered. You made some good points.

God be with you.

 

[Galilee63]

That is beautifully written and I enjoyed reading what you have said Philip. Thank you most greatly from my heart.

Our Blessed Virgin Mary, Mother of God is mentioned also in Revelations, within Her Psalm "The Magnificat" to God The Most High our Creator of Heaven, Earth and the Universe and of everything, during the Descent of The Holy Spirit descending upon the Disciples and our Blessed Virgin Mary in accompaniment. One of the reasons is that God our Heavenly Father kept our Blessed Virgin Mother Mary "Humble" "Meek" and "Quiet" hence while on earth appearing in the background to Jesus Holy Works and during Jesus' Disciples and Apostles Holy Works. Within the Catholic Church, women were always supposed to take a back seat with Jesus' Priests and Religious including Nuns, many of whom are now Saints, remaining in the background during Holy Masses - Masses said daily to pray and support in little ways yet never to conduct Masses as Priests do. God our Heavenly Father dictated these things to His Priests and Prophets before Jesus descended from Heaven to Earth. God dictated to Moses, Abraham, Aaron, Ezra, Ezekiel, Jeremiah and others how He wanted His Altars, Tabernacles and the Holy of Holies set up in His Holiness with His Priests and Religious following His Patterns and Holy Procedures to this day.

Our Heavenly Mother Mary has remained humble in our Lord Jesus Christ our Merciful Saviour for God our Heavenly Father and if you read just one of the hundreds of Saints/Nuns personal experiences with Jesus and Mother Mary appearing to Her, I feel you would greatly enjoy Saint Ann Catherine Emerich's volumes of diaries in which Jesus The Holy Spirit and Mother Mary explain from our Lord everything about Mother Mary's early infant, Childhood and Adult life in God our Heavenly Father.

www.jesus-passion.com/ANNE_CATHERINE_EMMERICH.htm

www.ecatholic2000.com/anne/lom4.shtml

www.marypages.com/EmmerichEng.htm

Catholic Prophecies, Revelations, and Apparitionsemmerich.shtml

 

[~Anastasia~]

It is sad HOW mankind will take something and over time espouse and believe it to be totally different than what it really was and is.

If you really want to know, and thirst for the truth, please follow along:

1. Mary was indeed a righteous woman, NO differently than billions of other women which were also righteous then and now. Sadly, MOST women are NOT righteous. Same for men.

2. However, she played and plays NO role in our salvation. Her only connection to salvation is she too was saved in the SAME way ANY one else gets saved. NOTING more-nothing less. God is NOT a respecter of persons.

Acts 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: Romans 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God. (Note: they made NO exceptions. Please never lose sight of this.)

3. Mary is NOT "deified" either; as the RCC (cult) has painted her. She is IN the grave waiting to be resurrected, in the "first resurrection", as ALL saved people are, who have died.

4. She can hear NO prayers. She is in a suspended spiritual sleep; as EVERY one who has ever died; EXCEPT for Enoch, Elijah and Moses. ALL others are still IN the grave waiting for the 1st (the saved) or the 2nd (the lost) resurrections separated by a 1,000 yrs (earthly time-one day in Heavenly time).

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be be with Jesus who is God, and shall (be) with Jesus a thousand years (earthly time-one day Heavenly time).

Then the 2nd resurrection takes place; where ALL unrighteous souls are raised from the dead; and appear at the Great White Throne judgment; along with those who were resurrected in the 1st "calling up"; to be judged where the sheep are totally pardoned and go the NEW Heaven and the lost only receive a partial pardon and go to hell. Remember Jesus will forgive EVERY sin on Judgment day, except for one.

Mark 3:28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme: Mark 3:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.

(Note: "blaspheming against the Holy Ghost (Spirit) simply means that a person never allows the Holy Spirit to enter their hearts and they die. THAT is the ultimate sin; and thus receives the ultimate punishment! Incidentally: ALL other sins are punished daily from birth to death; either 7 fold or 70 fold (if it is flaunted) for each sin of the flesh.)

5. There is little to no reason for Mary to be mentioned in the 4 "Gospels", since she played NO role in Jesus' ministry. The RCC has painted her into a "saint of saints" and describe and worship her as the "Mother of God". That is ridiculous and as blasphemous as any thing could be.

6. Worse: Is the Billions of gullible and foolish people who have bought into this garbage for 1600 years. They will ALL know how brain washed they were. Oh indeed Yes!

Again, she was truly a righteous woman, but that is where it stops. Jesus HAD to come into this world IN human form as we did, with one exception. He chose a woman of course, as the vehicle for this miracle. But.............He could NOT be conceived as we are thus she HAD to be a virgin. The reason is: IF he had been conceived through a male "seed" impregnating a female "egg"; He would NOT have been allowed to become the unblemished "Lamb of God" sacrifice (because of the Levitical Law). For He would have inherited the sinful genes of BOTH Joseph and Mary if He had been conceived; and thus been blemished; and NO way could He have been used for the atonement for sin. No way!

So a miracle happened; where Jesus simply placed his fleshly being (fetus) IN her womb; with NO sign of genes or DNA. In this way He was totally void of ANY worldly desires, sins or deeds; and He became the final "Lamb sacrifice" that would EVER be needed again. Praise Jesus' Holy Name.

Note: Jesus HAD to become a fleshly being because a spirit feels NO pain. Since pain is required for the justification of sin; He could not simply pardon the saved, without someone paying the painful penalty. Thus He was the ONLY fleshly being that could ever do that; since NO one else could ever have survived the pain. It was simply TOO great. Thus: I believe that while IN the tomb, He was taken to hell for eternity in essence: and felt the pain multiplied by the amount of people that would be saved; in a "burning lake of fire" (hell); even though it was only 3 physical days on earth. I also believe this is why He cried out on the cross, because He knew that IF He did not go through with it, NO one could be saved. Praise His precious Holy Name for what He chose to do.

Only a truly "Loving God" could EVER do that!

Thus Mary, or NO one else, played a role in the atonement for ultimate sin. This is why Jesus said what He said, when Mary and Jesus' symbolic "brothers and sisters" (brethren) told a disciple to tell Jesus they wanted to talk to him. Notice the stern "put-down" of them and their rebuke; since He was MUCH too busy to talk with them then; because He was trying to save the souls of the large multitude of lost souls surrounding Him. The same kind of rebuke; when Jesus was 12 and His symbolic father and mother wanted to talk to him; when he was talking to the elders of the temple.

Matthew 12:48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?

Luke 2:49 And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business? Matthew 12:49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! Matthew 12:50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

(The will of the Father was for everyone to believe IN Jesus who was God manifest IN the flesh.)

These two verses are very deep; and their depth of meaning has been missed by MOST Christians and even preachers sadly. What Jesus meant was: I am IN this world with you, but I am NOT "of" this world. This means He was NOT the child of Joseph and Mary; nor was he "kin" to the children that Joseph would sire and Mary would bear, AFTER Jesus was born.

For He was GOD Almighty, manifest IN the flesh, for a scant 30 yrs. ALL will know this to be truth absolute on Judgment day. Oh indeed yes.

1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was "manifest in the flesh", justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

In any case, May Jesus richly bless you and yours always.

There are a number of problems with what you are suggesting. I'm not sure if you read/heard these things somewhere, or came by them on your own, or some combination, but there are a number of beliefs here that do not align with what Christianity has always believed.

Just one I want to mention though - Christ did not deposit a formed physical body within Mary to be carried.

That doesn't even make sense ... if God was planning to create the Body He would use, why would He not simply appear as a grown Man?

But Christ came to redeem HUMANITY and for that reason He had to take on real human flesh. And He did so through the Virgin Mary.

What you propose was suggested by some Gnostic groups within the first couple of centuries, in another attempt to separate the "holiness" of the spiritual from the "evil" of the material. But it was rejected as heresy.

 

[Light of the East]

Believe it or not,

I guess technically you could say the Roman Catholic Church began the day paganism began, since Catholic literally means universal in Greek and was meant to be a universal religion, not solely based on Christianity. But specifically, the Roman Catholic Church didn't begin until the Romans began legislating Christianity.

The first church was just called the church. People over time split off and gave it labels, just as some of those you listed split off from Protestants who split off from the Catholics.

I'm fairly certain if the church was always called Catholic it would be mentioned in the Bible.

And you would be fairly wrong. Show me the verse that says that everything we are to believe is to be found in the Bible alone. Show me what the Bible says about contraception, about in vitro fertilization, on whether it is sinful to fly like a bird in a machine with engines.

There was one Church in the beginning of the New Covenant. It became described as "katholicos" (universal) because wherever you went in the empire, the doctrines and practices were universal. The Church in Rome, like the Church in Antioch, Jerusalem, etc. existed in the first century. And people did not split off. Where in the world did you get such an idea? Until 1054 AD, the Church was one, not the thousands we see in Protestantism.

And what kind of answer to my question is "believe it or not?" Can you give a straight answer to a straight question?

 

[Light of the East]

It is sad HOW mankind will take something and over time espouse and believe it to be totally different than what it really was and is.

If you really want to know, and thirst for the truth, please follow along:

First of all, this assumes that your ideas and interpretations are "truth" and that all the rest of Christianity for 2,000 years has been wrong. Why is it that you are special recipient of the truth and those who lived in the first three centuries, who honored the Blessed Virgin Mary, were not? They learned directly from the Apostles.

1. Mary was indeed a righteous woman, NO differently than billions of other women which were also righteous then and now. Sadly, MOST women are NOT righteous. Same for men.

I'm trying to make sense of what you are saying here. It appears that you are saying that Mary was just like billions of other women, which would be, of course, false, since no other woman in history has been addressed by an angel as "full of grace."

2. However, she played and plays NO role in our salvation. Her only connection to salvation is she too was saved in the SAME way ANY one else gets saved. NOTING more-nothing less. God is NOT a respecter of persons.

This is akin to saying that a woman plays no part in the conception and birth of a child. If Mary had, by her own free will, said "no" to the offer of the angel, rather than "Be it unto me as the Lord wills," then there would have been no salvation. How do you fail to realize that?

Acts 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: Romans 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God. (Note: they made NO exceptions. Please never lose sight of this.

This is so completely out of context that it isn't funny. Acts 10 is specifically about the opening of the Gospel to the Gentiles and the overcoming of the Jewish prejudice against non-Jews. More specifically, Jewish males in Israel used to pray "I thank you God that I was not born a woman or a Gentile" because they believed that women and Gentiles had no soul and could not get to heaven. There was a great animus against both of these groups, and the conversion of Cornelius was a biggie in changing the minds of the Jews. You are trying to make it something it is not.

3. Mary is NOT "deified" either; as the RCC (cult) has painted her. She is IN the grave waiting to be resurrected, in the "first resurrection", as ALL saved people are, who have died.

4. She can hear NO prayers. She is in a suspended spiritual sleep; as EVERY one who has ever died; EXCEPT for Enoch, Elijah and Moses. ALL others are still IN the grave waiting for the 1st (the saved) or the 2nd (the lost) resurrections separated by a 1,000 yrs (earthly time-one day in Heavenly time).

Uh......nope! The saints are alive and in the presence of God now. Their bodies are in the grave waiting for the General Resurrection, when Christ is last and fully manifest to the world, but their souls are in the presence of Christ and united to Him.

"Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be be with Jesus who is God, and shall (be) with Jesus a thousand years (earthly time-one day Heavenly time)."

You need to go back and re-read Revelation and take off your interpretive lenses. You are missing the fact that when John saw the vision he had on Patmos, he saw the saints, the saved, in heaven around the throne of God, casting down their golden crowns.

Then the 2nd resurrection takes place; where ALL unrighteous souls are raised from the dead; and appear at the Great White Throne judgment; along with those who were resurrected in the 1st "calling up"; to be judged where the sheep are totally pardoned and go the NEW Heaven and the lost only receive a partial pardon and go to hell. Remember Jesus will forgive EVERY sin on Judgment day, except for one.

Not what John 5: 28-29 says:

Jhn 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, Jhn 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

You see that? Two classes of people arise from the grave on the Day of Resurrection - those who have done good, the righteous, and those who have done evil - the wicked.

5. There is little to no reason for Mary to be mentioned in the 4 "Gospels", since she played NO role in Jesus' ministry. The RCC has painted her into a "saint of saints" and describe and worship her as the "Mother of God". That is ridiculous and as blasphemous as any thing could be.

We Orthodox also honor the Theotokos. We, nor the RCC's "worship" Her. One would think that after saying this over and over and over and over about a billion times in apologetics around the world, you non-Catholics and non-Orthodox would somehow "get it," but I guess you don't want the truth and would rather promote your beliefs than what we do.

6. Worse: Is the Billions of gullible and foolish people who have bought into this garbage for 1600 years. They will ALL know how brain washed they were. Oh indeed Yes!

Stop and think about what you said. First of all, it isn't 1600 years. It is 2000 years. And this means that unlike whatever flavor of Protestantism you espouse, the teaching regarding Mary has a solid historical foundation. She is the New Eve. That title was given to Her by the second century, and has a biblical foundation since there must be a New Eve to go along with the Last Adam (1 Corin. 15:45). She is the "mother of all living" since with Her Son, She is over the covenant community of believers.

Again, she was truly a righteous woman, but that is where it stops. Jesus HAD to come into this world IN human form as we did, with one exception. He chose a woman of course, as the vehicle for this miracle. But.............He could NOT be conceived as we are thus she HAD to be a virgin. The reason is: IF he had been conceived through a male "seed" impregnating a female "egg"; He would NOT have been allowed to become the unblemished "Lamb of God" sacrifice (because of the Levitical Law). For He would have inherited the sinful genes of BOTH Joseph and Mary if He had been conceived; and thus been blemished; and NO way could He have been used for the atonement for sin. No way!

Augustine's idea of "original sin" passed down through sexual generation. We Orthodox utterly reject it!

So a miracle happened; where Jesus simply placed his fleshly being (fetus) IN her womb; with NO sign of genes or DNA. In this way He was totally void of ANY worldly desires, sins or deeds; and He became the final "Lamb sacrifice" that would EVER be needed again. Praise Jesus' Holy Name.

Noooooooooooo!!!! This is HERESY!!! He was conceived in the same manner that all flesh is conceived or He cannot be the author of our salvation.

Note: Jesus HAD to become a fleshly being because a spirit feels NO pain. Since pain is required for the justification of sin; He could not simply pardon the saved, without someone paying the painful penalty. Thus He was the ONLY fleshly being that could ever do that; since NO one else could ever have survived the pain. It was simply TOO great. Thus: I believe that while IN the tomb, He was taken to hell for eternity in essence: and felt the pain multiplied by the amount of people that would be saved; in a "burning lake of fire" (hell); even though it was only 3 physical days on earth. I also believe this is why He cried out on the cross, because He knew that IF He did not go through with it, NO one could be saved. Praise His precious Holy Name for what He chose to do.

Again, this is Augustine's "penal substitution" idea which is based on the idea of God needing to punish someone for sin. We Orthodox reject this idea also. What Christ did was to offer perfect obedience to God, and in doing so, took upon Himself our human nature to heal it. As the Last Adam, He offered to God the obedience that Adam did not, thus creating a New Covenant and a new family within that covenant.

 

[Paul Yohannan]

Noooooooooooo!!!! This is HERESY!!! He was conceived in the same manner that all flesh is conceived or He cannot be the author of our salvation.

Indeed so. To say otherwise is to deny the full humanity of our Lord, and at that point we can just kiss Nicea goodbye.