JoeP222w

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In Luke 1, St. Mary says that "all generations will call me blessed." This remark is expressed uncritically. Therefore, if we do not regard her as blessed, we are defying inspired scripture.

That, in no way proves that Mary is the prototype for Christians. All believers in Jesus Christ are "blessed". That does not mean that every single believer is a "prototype" Christian.

I did not say Mary was not "blessed" if you are implying that.

Beyond that, if someone is blessed, we must look to them as exemplary, as embodying Christian virtues insofar as they are blessed.

I disagree. Blessedness that comes from God, comes from God, and not something in the individual that demands blessedness. Mary was not "blessed" because she was, in and of herself, special. Mary was special and blessed, solely because of the grace and mercy of God. He is the one who gets all of the credit and glory for Mary's being blessed. This is not to say that Mary was not holy. But she was holy solely because of the grace of God, not because of something she conjured up in herself, by her own efforts, or the life that she chose to live, in and of herself.

This also not to say that we can not learn from Mary from what is written in scripture. But if you are honest, not very much is written about Mary, and far, far more is written in scripture about Jesus. To go beyond what is written in scripture about Mary is wrong.
 
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Paul Yohannan

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1. God is not a "what". God is a "who".

I agree.

2. Never said that the child that Mary bore was not fully man/fully God.

So, do you agree with Cyrillian and Chalcedonian Christians that St. Mary gave birth to God?

Mary bore the incarnation of God in her womb.

So you are drawing an ontological distinction between "the incarnation of God" and God Himself?

Jesus is fully God and fully man.

I agree, as do all Nicene Christians.

And I am not saying that Mary bore a fully grown man in her womb. I use "man" as in fully human male.

So are you now saying that Jesus was not fully God or fully man before reaching adulthood???

Maybe not dogmatically, but that is what that seems to claim (that Mary precedes Jesus).

Well, this merely owes to the Paradox of the Incarnation. God, who is preceded by none, made King David His predeccessor. God, who is without change, grew from conception into adulthood. God, who is impassable, immutable and immortal, died on the Cross.

The term Mother of God is paradoxical, to be sure, but this owes to the impact of Divine Omnipotence. By becoming man and dying for us, God radically altered the order of things.
 
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JoeP222w

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I could do that, because such texts exist, but it would be offtopic to this thread.

Than your argument is an argument from silence and thus a logical fallacy.

I am not going to provide the verse numbers; I will simply assert on my authority as one of the leading Orthodox apologists on CF.com that numerous texts describing such veneration exist, and they can be found via Google.

And that would be a clear argument from Authority fallacy.

Really, it should not matter that verses exist to support the veneration of eikons of the Theotokos; the simple fact that such veneration was commanded by the Second Council of Nicea, for Chalcedonians, and enjoined upon Oriental Orthodox via internal ecclesiastical tradition, should suffice. Indeed, there is reason to believe the Assyrians also historically venerated such icons, which would mean this veneration was a unified aspect of all Nicene Christians, from the end of Iconoclasm in 843, until John Calvin.

Since I do not hold that the church as the sole infallible rule of faith (sola ekklesia), this does not hold any authority to me, and since there is no scriptural support for your claims, it is suspect at best.

If one, therefore, is to invoke any verse as an authority on this, it would be Matthew 16:18. However, additional support in the OT does exist and can be found via Google.

Yes, Jesus is the authority and He is building His church, not the church and not sinful man. That is, if you correctly exegete Matthew 16:18.

Google is no way any authority in Christian truth.
 
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Paul Yohannan

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That, in no way proves that Mary is the prototype for Christians. All believers in Jesus Christ are "blessed". That does not mean that every single believer is a "prototype" Christian.

I did not say Mary was not "blessed" if you are implying that.

The saints who are venerated are venerated because their lives demonstrate the obedience to God required of salvation, and we know them to be in Heaven and to be glorified.

It is this glorification, this blessed quality, which makes them worthy of veneration as an exemplary disciple of Christ.

And Luke 1 makes this glorification of St. Mary explicitly Biblical.

I disagree. Blessedness that comes from God, comes from God, and not something in the individual that demands blessedness. Mary was not "blessed" because she was, in and of herself, special. Mary was special and blessed, solely because of the grace and mercy of God. He is the one who gets all of the credit and glory for Mary's being blessed. This is not to say that Mary was not holy. But she was holy solely because of the grace of God, not because of something she conjured up in herself, by her own efforts, or the life that she chose to live, in and of herself.

This is a Calvinist perspective, which I reject for its Monergism. Monergism is contrary to the Incarnation; it denies the human synergy in the process of salvation. It makes no sense in lignt of God taking our fallen humanity onto Himself and glorifying it.

This also not to say that we can not learn from Mary from what is written in scripture. But if you are honest, not very much is written about Mary, and far, far more is written in scripture about Jesus.

More is written about her than about most NT figures other than our Lord.

St. Mary points to Jesus and instructs us by example on the virtues of Christian humility and obedience.

To go beyond what is written in scripture about Mary is wrong.

By this argument, which I reject, none of the hagiopgraphies of the pious Christian saints and martyrs of the early Church would have any value.

St. Irenaeus may have been fed to lions, but who cares? Saintly children may have been burned or decapitated, but who cares? It wasn't in Scripture, and therefore it is irrelevant and has no possible meaning, application or utility to our Christian faith, right?

I should just, according to this unpleasant, iconoclastic theology, delete the avatar I have showing the new Coptic martyrs killed by ISIS in Libya because (a), it's not in the Bible, so their martyrdom is irrelevant, and (b), having an icon of them must mean I am committing idolatry by worshipping them as gods.

This is of course inconsistent with sacred scripture and the Holy Tradition of the Orthodox Catholic Church, and thus, I reject this argument utterly.
 
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JoeP222w

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So, do you agree with Cyrillian and Chalcedonian Christians that St. Mary gave birth to God?

I don't know the specifics of what they believed, so if I am honest I cannot comment on that.

So you are drawing an ontological distinction between "the incarnation of God" and God Himself?

Jesus is God. Jesus is fully man. Jesus has always been God. Jesus incarnated as man when Mary bore Him in her womb.

So are you now saying that Jesus was not fully God or fully man before reaching adulthood???

That would be a complete misreading of, and reading into my comment.
 
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Paul Yohannan

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Than your argument is an argument from silence and thus a logical fallacy.

Refusing to derail a thread is not an argument from silence. What is more, the verses exist; I simply refuse to look them up. I am not Google.

And that would be a clear argument from Authority fallacy.

An Appeal to Authority is only fallacious where the authority lacks relevant expertise on the subject matter. For example, and this is strictly a hypothetical example, if one argued that Jesus did not perform miracles because Thomas Jefferson famously believed He did not (to the point of editing the Gospels to remove that content), that would be per se a fallacious Appeal to Authority.

On the other hand, regarding myself, I posess specific knowledge and expertise concerning the theology of the Orthodox Church and am thus a reliable authority to cite regarding eastern Christian theology, on CF.com. I am not as much of an authority as say, Metropolitan Kallistos Ware of Diokleia, or Sebastian Brock, which is why I in turn cite them as indicated.

In this case, my reticence to provide the specific verses owes to the fact that I am tired of verses being weaponized in doctrinal debates. There is no need for scripture to be used in this manner; I am not interested in debating the meaning of specific verses ad nauseum. Particularly when it is off-topic.

Since I do not hold that the church as the sole infallible rule of faith (sola ekklesia), this does not hold any authority to me, and since there is no scriptural support for your claims, it is suspect at best.

There is scriptural support, I simply refuse to derail this thread by providing it. This thread is about St. Mary the Theotokos, not about the Holy Icons.

Yes, Jesus is the authority and He is building His church, not the church and not sinful man.

What?

That is, if you correctly exegete Matthew 16:18.

So in your view, the Church does not yet exist?

Google is no way any authority in Christian truth.

No, but it can be used to look up verses, particularly in this case.
 
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JoeP222w

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The saints who are venerated are venerated because their lives demonstrate the obedience to God required of salvation, and we know them to be in Heaven and to be glorified.

Where does the Bible specifically say that saint are to be "venerated"? I am not demanding the specific word, but the principle behind it.

This is a Calvinist perspective, which I reject for its Monergism. Monergism is contrary to the Incarnation; it denies the human synergy in the process of salvation. It makes no sense in lignt of God taking our fallen humanity onto Himself and glorifying it.

Ok, you can so choose. By God grace, He has shown me He is sovereign and He gets all the glory and that man deserves no glory because man is dead in his sins against the holy, perfect and righteous God. Man is completely unable to work with God, unless God does the work of grace in man's heart. I find nowhere in scripture where man is glorified, but rather only God is glorified.

More is written about her than about most NT figures other than our Lord.

That would imply that you are tossing out all of Paul, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Peter, James. The text does not support your assertion here.


By this argument, which I reject, none of the hagiopgraphies of the pious Christian saints and martyrs of the early Church would have any value.

St. Irenaeus may have been fed to lions, but who cares? Saintly children may have been burned or decapitated, but who cares? It wasn't in Scripture, and therefore it is irrelevant and has no possible meaning, application or utility to our Christian faith, right?

I should just, according to this unpleasant, iconoclastic theology, delete the avatar I have showing the new Coptic martyrs killed by ISIS in Libya because (a), it's not in the Bible, so their martyrdom is irrelevant, and (b), having an icon of them must mean I am committing idolatry by worshipping them as gods.

This is of course inconsistent with sacred scripture and the Holy Tradition of the Orthodox Catholic Church, and thus, I reject this argument utterly.

I may have misstated in my comment that you are responding to here. But to clarify, I meant that anything that is written about Mary (or other church fathers or martyrs) is insignificant in the sense that anything outside of the infallible word of God is fallible and is based upon traditions. Traditions are not the sole infallible rule of faith for the Christian. The word of God from the Bible is the sole infallible rule of faith for the Christian.

This is not to say that much can be learned from early church writings, but they must come under the authority of scripture and tested as truth. And writings outside of scripture are not to be considered the word of God.
 
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Paul Yohannan

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I don't know the specifics of what they believed, so if I am honest I cannot comment on that.

They still exist (in the form of most Christians alive today).

That said, I am asking if you believe St. Mary gave birth to God.
 
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JoeP222w

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Refusing to derail a thread is not an argument from silence. What is more, the verses exist; I simply refuse to look them up. I am not Google.

I think my argument stands. I don't see it as derailing the thread at, but rather key to defending the claim that Mary is a prototype.

You made a claim, the burden of proof lies upon you.

So in your view, the Church does not yet exist?

You seem to be an expert on reading things into my comments that are simply not there.
 
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Paul Yohannan

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Where does the Bible specifically say that saint are to be "venerated"? I am not demanding the specific word, but the principle behind it.

In Luke 1, for starters.

Ok, you can so choose. By God grace, He has shown me He is sovereign and He gets all the glory and that man deserves no glory because man is dead in his sins against the holy, perfect and righteous God. Man is completely unable to work with God, unless God does the work of grace in man's heart. I find nowhere in scripture where man is glorified, but rather only God is glorified.

This of course makes no sense at all in light of the Incarnation, because herein you are basically denying that humanity was exalted by God becoming Man.

That would imply that you are tossing out all of Paul, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Peter, James. The text does not support your assertion here.

I am certainly not saying that. Rather, I am (correctly) stating that she receives more attention by the canonical New Testament than most humans mentioned therein. This is incontrovertible; if we count the number of verses discussing her versus those discussing others, it will be apparent she is one of the most discussed. She gets more verses than some members of the Twelve, even.

I may have misstated in my comment that you are responding to here. But to clarify, I meant that anything that is written about Mary (or other church fathers or martyrs) is insignificant in the sense that anything outside of the infallible word of God is fallible and is based upon traditions. Traditions are not the sole infallible rule of faith for the Christian.

Holy Tradition as exercised in the Holy Orthodox Church is, on dogmatic issues, infallible; Inspired Scripture is infallible insofar as its Inspired interpretation (the actual meaning of the text understood correctly is infallible; the text is fallible if misread) is central to this Dogmatic definition and at the heart of Scripture.

The word of God from the Bible is the sole infallible rule of faith for the Christian.

The Word of God is Jesus Christ. The Bible is an eikon of the Word. It derives its authority from the same Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church (the Orthodox Church) which determined its contents. Used indepdently of the Church or in opposition to it, it is fallible (owing to being misinterpreted fallibly).

Scripture is infallible insofar as the Orthodox exegesis of Scripture is infallible.

This is not to say that much can be learned from early church writings, but they must come under the authority of scripture and tested as truth.

There is no authority of Scripture independent of the Church to test them against.

The Nicene Creed, for example, is binding and infallible. It is also extrascriptural.

We reject therefore the misinterpreted proof-texts offered by non-Trinitarians, because their flawed interpretation contradicts the Creed and is therefore anathema.


And writings outside of scripture are not to be considered the word of God.

The Word of God is Jesus Christ (John 1:1-14).
 
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Paul Yohannan

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I think my argument stands. I don't see it as derailing the thread at, but rather key to defending the claim that Mary is a prototype.

You made a claim, the burden of proof lies upon you.

No, it is tangential to it, because one can reject iconography and still regard St. Mary as prototypical for Christians in her behavior.
 
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JoeP222w

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I am asking if you believe St. Mary gave birth to God.

In the sense that Jesus, who became incarnate through the womb of Mary by the power of the Holy Spirit, yes.
In the sense that Jesus, who is God and is always God, began in Mary's womb as compared to all humans, no.
 
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JoeP222w

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In Luke 1, for starters.

Again a generic vagueness that does not support veneration. You believe it does, but you have not demonstrated it.

This of course makes no sense at all in light of the Incarnation, because herein you are basically denying that humanity was exalted by God becoming Man.

Jesus becoming man does not exalt humanity. But rather exalts Jesus, because He humbled Himself to the point of becoming man.

I am certainly not saying that. Rather, I am (correctly) stating that she receives more attention by the canonical New Testament than most humans mentioned therein. This is incontrovertible; if we count the number of verses discussing her versus those discussing others, it will be apparent she is one of the most discussed. She gets more verses than some members of the Twelve, even.

The text of the Bible does not support your claim. Mary mentioned 46 times (but not all of those "Mary" are referring to Mary, mother of Jesus, some refer to other Marys). Paul mentioned 160 times. Peter mentioned 151 times. John 132 mentions. So you claim does not hold.

Holy Tradition as exercised in the Holy Orthodox Church is, on dogmatic issues, infallible;

Obviously I completely disagree.

Inspired Scripture is infallible insofar as its Inspired interpretation (the actual meaning of the text understood correctly is infallible; the text is fallible if misread) is central to this Dogmatic definition and at the heart of Scripture.

Joseph Smith would agree with you and he was a polytheist.

I do not put such limitations on scripture and I do not see how scripture limits itself in such a way as you claim.

The Word of God is Jesus Christ. The Bible is an eikon of the Word. It derives its authority from the same Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church (the Orthodox Church) which determined its contents. Used indepdently of the Church or in opposition to it, it is fallible (owing to being misinterpreted fallibly).

Scripture is infallible insofar as the Orthodox exegesis of Scripture is infallible.

How did Abraham or Moses know that they were following the word/truth of God since the "Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church" did not even exist in their day to tell them what they are supposed to believe in or determine the contents of scripture?

There is no authority of Scripture independent of the Church to test them against.

Disagree completely. The Church exists subservient to the truth of scripture, not the other way around as you put it.

The Nicene Creed, for example, is binding and infallible. It is also extrascriptural.

Disagree. While the Nicene Creed has truth in it, it is not the sole infallible rule of faith.

We reject therefore the misinterpreted proof-texts offered by non-Trinitarians, because their flawed interpretation contradicts the Creed and is therefore anathema.

I don't disagree on that point, but not because it disagrees with the Creed, but where it disagrees with scripture. Those who deny the Trinity are indeed unscriptural.

The Word of God is Jesus Christ (John 1:1-14).

I agree, and I don't think I have written otherwise in this forum. If I have, I have done so in error.
 
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Root of Jesse

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Ok.

John 7:24 Do not judge by appearances, but judge with right judgment."
Who or what gives you the idea that you're judging with right judgment?
That is not a refutation of my point.
Yeah, it is. We worship Jesus as Lord, not Mary.
 
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Root of Jesse

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In the sense that Jesus, who became incarnate through the womb of Mary by the power of the Holy Spirit, yes.
In the sense that Jesus, who is God and is always God, began in Mary's womb as compared to all humans, no.
Are you trying to say that Mary gave birth to the human nature of Jesus?
 
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DrBubbaLove

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Indeed; Lourdes is officially recognized by the RCC.

Conversely, many pious bishops discourage pilgrimages to Medjugorje because that apparition is not officially sanctioned and lacks the good fruit in terms of vocations, healing et cetera one finds at Lourdes.

I personally can't imagine why anyone would go to Medjugorje when Lourdes exists.
Yes sir, agree.

To clarify further so no Protestant brother misunderstands, Church approval of any apparition should never be understood as something the faithful are REQUIRED to believe. Such approvals by the Church simply indicate nothing about what is going on there is contrary to the public revelations ending with the Apostles and so voluntary belief in any private revelation (and benefit) given is WORTHY of belief. There is a difference there from saying approval means a Catholic MUST believe in Lourdes for example.

Remaining silent on or Bishops very strongly suggesting other instances of apparitions be avoided is saying there are one or more suspect reasons which create/cast doubt on whether the event in question is worthy of belief. That is not the case with Lourdes or other approved apparitions.
 
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AnticipateHisComing

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It was. See: Luke 1.

The reality is that the veneration of St. Mary is the ancient and established tradition; the rejection of that veneration is novel.

In the fourth century, there were two obscure sects, the Antidicomarians, who refused veneration to Mary, and the Collyridians, who worshipped her; both of these errors were rejected by the early Church.
I'll take your Luke 1 and raise you with what Jesus actually said.

Matthew 12:47 Someone told him, “Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you.”48 He replied to him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” 49 Pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers. 50 For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.”

Luke 11:27 As Jesus was saying these things, a woman in the crowd called out, “Blessed is the mother who gave you birth and nursed you.”

28 He replied, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it.”

It should be clear from Jesus words himself that ALL Christians are blessed and no one person should have a shrine with mass pilgrims visiting.

Further if you knew what blessed actually was, you would know that all blessings come from God, not revering from men. Mary is blessed above all women for what God accomplished in her, not what men think of her or think that she does now being dead for 2000 years.
 
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AnticipateHisComing

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It was under Moses that we encounter the first divinely ordained iconography in the form of the Rod of Aaron and the carved Seraphim on the Ark.

And the Ark was obviously venerated.
The Ark of the Covenant was revered for it having the Spirit of God in it. Today it is just a box and to revere it is to regard it as an idol. And it has no power despite Indiana Jones and his search for it.
The reverence the Jews showed it (and which the Ethiopian Orthodox, who have it, continue to show it), is directly equivalent to the reverence correctly displayed before icons of the Theotokos.
In the NT Jesus brought a new covenant. The old covenant with its centerpiece, the temple with all its objects of glory went out the window at that time.
 
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