Mary - Christian Prototype

[Philip_B]

You wrote the following and list Matthew 16:18 for your authority, Peter the rock of the Church.

The Petrine text of Matthew 16:18 was recognised in terms of the see of Rome from an early stage. The nature of how that worked in terms of the way leadership and authority works is best understood in light of Matthew 20:25 and the Council in Acts 15. That is an authority that worked in a conciliar manner with the historic see being first amongst equals. At the 1st Council of Nicaea this was easy as Rome was also the seat of Empire, but come the 1st Council of Constantinople this was more complex as Constantinople (Nova Romanum) was now the seat of Empire, and the Bishop of Constantinople was recognised as 1st after Rome. The Eastern and the Oriental Orthodox have a problem with the way they perceive that authority has be wielded outside the operation of the Councils - and notably the inclusion of the filioque clause for the enthronement of Henry II as Holy Roman Emperor on the 14th of February 1014.

Does your church not also have a similar claim to apostolic succession as does the RCC?

There are several Churches that value to apostolic succession or the historic episcopate, including RCC, EOC, OOC, all the other Orthodox Churches, The Anglican Communion, The Old Catholics, the Mar Thoma Church, and indeed we value and treasure this great and obvious link to the foundations of our Church in Jesus Christ our Lord.

Make up your mind. Do you revere Mary because they did in the OT or because the authority continues in your church through Peter to "explain" all things doctrinal?

I don't understand the OT remark. My feeling is that have a high view of Mary, Mother of the Lord, is sufficiently understood in embracing the story of our salvation as found in the Bible. I love you and rubbish your Mum does not work for me. Sorry, but I don't need to follow the Pope, to have a reasonable opinion of the one to whom the Angel said Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with you.

You need to study Lutheran doctrine more in order to speak for them. Having left that church after 50 years, I can say they do not believe as you about Mary. Further, I know of no Protestant church that prays to Mary.

I think the movement that follows the continental reformation has moved and developed since that time, and there are many things that surprise people, like Calvin section on 'the Holy Catholic Church as a means of grace', or indeed John Wesley saying the rosary on horseback. We live in a world of many surprises.

We are united around Jesus and he is the head of the church as scripture says, Colossians 1:18.

110%

Anglican, not really Protestant as in a byproduct of the Reformation.

A blessing on your house. I was going to have a shot at Paul for describing me and my Church as Protestant. Our classic self description is both catholic and reformed. I believe that the Elizabethan Settlement sought to secure a situation where all good christian folk could be loyal to both Church and Monarch, and that we could in the diversity of views recognised hold a common faith. In a sense it was the resolution that the Pilgrimage of Grace should have achieved, and probably would have had Cranmer not been so fearful of the mob, and Henry VIII less fearful of a Plantagenet claimant for the throne.

list one Protestant church that prays to Mary.

Not my job, and if you will note in the OP I made zero (nil, nada, squat) reference to praying to Mary. It is quite possible that was because I have no desire or intent to make this thread contentious.

 

[Paul Yohannan]

You wrote the following and list Matthew 16:18 for your authority, Peter the rock of the Church.

With regards to St. Peter, the Orthodox interpretation is that he was the leader of the Apostles, and the bishops in succession to those ordained by him in Rome, Antioch and, via St. Mark, Alexandria, would derive an elevated honor in terms of their placement in the diptychs from it, but not binding authority over other bishops. Every bishop is of roughly equivalent authority within his own diocese.

In quoting Matthew 16:18, I am referring to the promise of divine protection for the Church. This verse absolutely refutes the idea of a Great Apostasy.

That said, I am increasingly disinclined to cite even the verse number, because I am tired of individual verses being used; rather, I think I might only provide the name of the individual books that contain the verses I am referring to. This reduces what one might call the "mnemonic load" and what is more encourages people to read the entire book.

Does your church not also have a similar claim to apostolic succession as does the RCC?

Not in this sense.

Make up your mind. Do you revere Mary because they did in the OT

I never claimed to venerate the Theotokos simply because in the OT they venerated typographical references to her.

That would be sola scriptura.

or because the authority continues in your church through Peter to "explain" all things doctrinal?

My Church has this authority, but this authority within the Church is not reserved to the bishops, and it does not flow from St. Peter.

You should really look into Orthodox theology before presuming to opine on it in an authoritative manner.

You need to study Lutheran doctrine more in order to speak for them. Having left that church after 50 years, I can say they do not believe as you about Mary. Further, I know of no Protestant church that prays to Mary.

On this point, it is evident that you are unfamiliar with the diversity of theological perspectives within Lutheranism.

Whereas on the one hand it is true that, as a rule, the Lutheran veneration of St. Mary is less likely to extend to intercessory prayer, it is also true that Martin Luther, and the major dogmatic definitions relied on by confessional Lutherans, do declare St. Mary to be the Mother of God, and she is clearly afforded veneration by Luther.

What is more, there is a broad diversity within Lutheran, so some Lutherans use the Rosary. There are, for example, Lutheran Benedictine monks, in the US, Germany and Sweden.

In Anglicanism, devotion to St. Mary is widespread; the use of prayers such as the Ave Maria is very common. Anglicanism can be even more diverse than Lutheranism, so one will find low church parishes where this is not done (and low churchmen like Archbishop Justin Welby, who are less likely to engage in such practices), and one will find high church cathedrals with entire chapels dedicated to St. Mary.

We are united around Jesus and he is the head of the church as scripture says, Colossians 1:18.

Jesus Christ is the head of the Church. Therefore, in serving Him, we must unite around the Church Triumphant, of which St. Mary is the most venerable member.

Anglican, not really Protestant as in a byproduct of the Reformation.

This is completely untrue; Cranmer was one of the most important reformers, and the Church of England breaking away from Rome is one of the most important events in the history of Protestantism.

It simply is not tenable to say that the Anglicans are not Protestant; they are more Protestant and more Reformed than Lutheranism (the Anglicans were basically high church Calvinists; the official interpretation of the Eucharist in the Book of Common Prayer clearly describes a Calvinist view; see the Black Rubric).

If the early reformers accepted some veneration of Mary for the sake of tradition, that has largely disappeared from the churches reformed as we now look to scripture for supreme authority.

It has evidently not.

Again, list one Protestant church that prays to Mary.

I can list two churches where this practice is known to occur with some frequency: Anglicanism and Lutheranism. However, I know of some Methodists who do this as well.

 

[Paul Yohannan]

Not an accurate assessment of scripture.

Elizabeth said to Mary that she was blessed above all WOMEN.
The angel Gabriel said to Mary that she was highly favored, not the highest favored. Others have been also been highly favored, like Daniel. Moses was more humble than any. King Solomon was the wisest human to live. Enoch walked faithfully with God, pleased him and then was taken to heaven. John the Baptist was great in the sight of God. The apostle John was especially loved by Jesus. Peter the "rock" of the church.

You might look up the definition of surpassed and then reread my post.

But, take note of what Jesus said.

Matthew 11:11 Truly I tell you, among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist; yet whoever is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

St. Mary is in the Kingdom of Heaven."

Luke 11:27 As Jesus was saying these things, a woman in the crowd called out, “Blessed is the mother who gave you birth and nursed you.” 28 He replied, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it.”

The building of shrines to people, regardless of how well they served God is outside of what Jesus taught us to do.

Still waiting for a response to the Luke 11 passage that I raised before. Jesus is basically saying to not venerate Mary.

No, he is not. Jesus Christ is the Word of God, and was obeyed in the most extreme way possible by St. Mary.

Our Lord is explaining that the basis for the veneration of St. Mary derives from this extreme obedience on her part.

 

[Philip_B]

In Anglicanism, devotion to St. Mary is widespread; the use of prayers such as the Ave Maria is very common. Anglicanism can be even more diverse than Lutheranism, so one will find low church parishes where this is not done (and low churchmen like Archbishop Justin Welby, who are less likely to engage in such practices), and one will find high church cathedrals with entire chapels dedicated to St. Mary.

Introduction

Walsingham has been a centre of devotion for many many years, and indeed since before the Norman Invasion of England authorised by the Pope in 1066. One of the clear distinctions in the English depiction of Mary is the Low Saxon Crown, normally seated and traditionally carved in apple wood.

One of the distinct points about Anglican attention to Mary is that she is always presenting and pointing to her son our saviour Jesus Christ.

As Paul rightly points out it is by no means universal, and is part complexity of Anglicanism. However we do stand united in our love of the collect for the Feast of the Annunciation which I share here.

We beseech you, O Lord, pour your grace into our hearts,
that as we have known the incarnation of your Son Jesus Christ
by the message of an angel, so by his + cross and passion
we may be brought to the glory of his resurrection;
through Jesus Christ your Son our Lord, who is alive and reigns with you,
in the unity of the Holy Spirit, one God, now and for ever.​

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

I believe that if we read those passages in context with John 1, it obviously refers not to Scripture but to the Logos, of which Scripture is an icon.

Understand the meaning of context. That would be the text immediately surrounding the text in question, not text in other books written by a different person.

As for my quoted texts referring to Jesus, there is a reason why Word is capitalized in John 1 and not in Ephesians 6:17 and Hebrews 4:12. That would be because there is a difference between scripture and Jesus. The sword of the Spirit that each Christian should rely on is scripture.

What is more, the prerogative to wield scripture as a sword is reserved by the Church. It cannot be legitimately used in opposition to the Body of Christ.

The Church is the body of all saints. Do you make it to be something else?

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

I am sorry that you have found the post challenging,

Quite the contrary. I don't find the thread challenging. I called it contentious. And, you should realize by now, I have no problem contending with those of opposing opinion. [/QUOTE]

There is more that unites us than tears us apart.

Bless be any that attempt that.

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

You might look up the definition of surpassed and then reread my post.

Sure, right after you show me where all the other noted individuals have shrines and are prayed to. You make Mary to be the most special person to live. I point out how scripture calls out others of special note and you resort to word definition games.

St. Mary is in the Kingdom of Heaven."

And so is John the Baptist. Now if Mary was great while she lived on this earth and as a result you pray to here and set up shrines for her, you should do the same for John the Baptist. Scripture says, by Jesus himself, that John the Baptist was greater than any person born of women, Matthew 11:11. You read into scripture to suit what doctrine you were taught.

No, he is not. Jesus Christ is the Word of God, and was obeyed in the most extreme way possible by St. Mary.

Our Lord is explaining that the basis for the veneration of St. Mary derives from this extreme obedience on her part.

The word rather introduces an alternative thought. The masses wanted to venerate Mary, solely because she bore Jesus, which is the reason listed for Mary to be so blessed. Jesus taught an opposing thought introduced with rather. That is all who follow God's word are to be blessed.

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

Read the next verse.

1 Corinthians 5:13 makes it clear such a person is anathema; the judgment of them is reserved to God.

The whole text of 1 Corinthians 5 instructs on how the church should deal with corrupt individuals in the Church. 1 Corinthians 5:13 ends the chapter and instructs to judge and expel the wicked people in the Church. It also adds to not judge those outside the Church. As I stated in my post, there are two different categories of judgement.

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

Not my job, and if you will note in the OP I made zero (nil, nada, squat) reference to praying to Mary. It is quite possible that was because I have no desire or intent to make this thread contentious.

You respond/defend a post to another, so you don't have to, but then don't quote it either.

But, FYI, the fruit of the veneration of Mary is praying to her. As such it is a source of much divide with the modern Protestant churches.

 

[JoeP222w]

So "God told me".

So do you deny that God can speak to us through His scripture? That God, the Creator of the universe is incapable of communicating His truth to His creation?

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

Show in the Bible where Moses and the Israelites were commanded by God to bow down before the Ark of the Covenant or the Rod of Aaron out of "veneration", because it would be interesting to me to see that passage.

If one, therefore, is to invoke any verse as an authority on this, it would be Matthew 16:18. However, additional support in the OT does exist and can be found via Google.

In quoting Matthew 16:18, I am referring to the promise of divine protection for the Church. This verse absolutely refutes the idea of a Great Apostasy.

Good thing we have recorded what you were actually discussing. Again the question, where does your church get authority to determine what to venerate? Your initial response just listed Matthew 16:18 with no explanation.

Now Matthew 16:18 says nothing about misguided teachings in the Church. Scripture later records Peter promoting a false teaching. Lastly, the Church contains saved members of many different denominations with different doctrines. Can they all quote Matthew 16 and say they are correct?

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

You should really look into Orthodox theology before presuming to opine on it in an authoritative manner.

You should understand that when one asks a question such that you just responded to, a claim to be opining in an authoritative manner is not to be inferred.

On this point, it is evident that you are unfamiliar with the diversity of theological perspectives within Lutheranism.

Whereas on the one hand it is true that, as a rule, the Lutheran veneration of St. Mary is less likely to extend to intercessory prayer,

Not looking for some obscure sect that you use to paint a general behavior to Lutherans in general and then claim some superior knowledge to one that was actually Lutheran for a long time as said. Yet, you chide me to opine in another's church of affiliation.

Just because I could list some obscure sect related to the Catholics that outright worship Mary, doesn't mean I would make such broad assignment to that belief in all that believe in apostolic succession. Further, I wouldn't claim you are unfamiliar with the diversity of theological perspectives among Catholics.

it is also true that Martin Luther, and the major dogmatic definitions relied on by confessional Lutherans, do declare St. Mary to be the Mother of God, and she is clearly afforded veneration by Luther.

My argument is not about respect due to Mary or that she is blessed. It is about veneration of/shrines and praying to her.

Jesus Christ is the head of the Church. Therefore, in serving Him, we must unite around the Church Triumphant, of which St. Mary is the most venerable member.

So you say, not what scripture says. Scripture says John the Baptist was the greatest born of women, yet no shrines to him, unless you count the Baptist Church.

This is completely untrue; Cranmer was one of the most important reformers, and the Church of England breaking away from Rome is one of the most important events in the history of Protestantism.

It simply is not tenable to say that the Anglicans are not Protestant; they are more Protestant and more Reformed than Lutheranism (the Anglicans were basically high church Calvinists; the official interpretation of the Eucharist in the Book of Common Prayer clearly describes a Calvinist view; see the Black Rubric).

Funny how in the post immediately before you write Angilcans are Protestants, the Anglican that started this thread affirmed and blessed me for my statement. Take up your arguement with him.

It has evidently not.

You exaggerate, the percent of Protestants that pray to Mary.

 

[Paul Yohannan]

Not looking for some obscure sect that you use to paint a general behavior to Lutherans in general and then claim some superior knowledge to one that was actually Lutheran for a long time as said. Yet, you chide me to opine in another's church of affiliation.

Hardly an obscure sect.

Just because I could list some obscure sect related to the Catholics that outright worship Mary, doesn't mean I would make such broad assignment to that belief in all that believe in apostolic succession. Further, I wouldn't claim you are unfamiliar with the diversity of theological perspectives among Catholics.

If any Catholics worship Mary, they do so in defiance of their own bishops and their own magisterium.

My argument is not about respect due to Mary or that she is blessed. It is about veneration of/shrines and praying to her.

There are countless Anglican parishes dedicated to St. Mary, and many of the great cathedrals in the UK have a chapel dedicated to her.

So you say, not what scripture says. Scripture says John the Baptist was the greatest born of women,

Not in the context of the Kingdom of Heaven, which is where St. Mary is, bodily.

yet no shrines to him,

This is incredibly inaccurate. There are vast numbers of churches dedicated to St. John the Baptist, and I personally have venerated his relics. The number of feasts in the Church dedicated to him is roughly the same as those dedicated to St. Mary. We commemorate his birth, his martyrdom, his parents, and the finding and recovery of his head.

unless you count the Baptist Church.

Lol what?

Funny how in the post immediately before you write Angilcans are Protestants, the Anglican that started this thread affirmed and blessed me for my statement. Take up your arguement with him.

I have no argument with Philip_B.

You exaggerate, the percent of Protestants that pray to Mary.

No, I don't.

 

[Philip_B]

Hardly an obscure sect.

Lets just assume that if you are on this list then you are not in an obscure sect.
List of Christian denominations by number of members - Wikipedia
Oriental Orthodoxy has 86 million members and as the fourth largest group ahead of the Anglicans at 85 million one might conclude that neither of these groups is obscure.

There are countless Anglican parishes dedicated to St. Mary, and many of the great cathedrals in the UK have a chapel dedicated to her.

United Kingdom
England
Bedfordshire

• St Mary's Church, Clophill
• Church of St Mary, Everton, Bedfordshire
• Church of St Mary the Virgin, Henlow
• St Mary's Church, Lower Gravenhurst
• Church of Saint Mary the Virgin, Harlington, Bedfordshire
• Church of St Mary the Virgin, Keysoe
• St Mary's Church, Luton
• Church of St Mary the Virgin, Northill
• St Mary's Church, Potsgrove
• Church of St Mary the Virgin, Salford, Bedfordshire
• Church of St Mary the Virgin, Shelton, North Bedfordshire
• Church of St Mary the Virgin, Wootton, Bedfordshire
• Church of St Mary the Virgin, Yielden

Berkshire

• Church of St Mary the Virgin, Aldermaston
• St Mary's Church, Kintbury, in Kintbury
• St Mary's Church, Lambourn Woodlands
• St Mary the Virgin Church, Langley, a Grade I listed building in Langley, Slough
• St Mary's Parish Church, Slough, a Grade II* listed building
• St Mary's Church, Maidenhead
• Reading Minster (known also as the Minster Church of St Mary the Virgin)
• St Mary's Church, Castle Street, Reading
• St Mary's Church, Thatcham

Bristol

• St Mary's Church, Henbury
• St Mary Redcliffe
• St Mary's Church, Saltford

Buckinghamshire

• St Mary's Church, Amersham
• St Mary the Virgin's Church, Aylesbury
• St. Mary's Church, Bletchley
• St Mary Magdalene's Church, Boveney
• St. Mary's Church, Chesham
• St Mary the Virgin's Church, Fawley
• St Mary's Church, Fleet Marston
• St. Mary the Virgin, Great Brickhill
• St Mary's Church, Hardmead
• St Mary's Church, Hartwell
• St Mary's Church, Pitstone
• St. Mary's Church, Shenley

Cambridgeshire

• Church of St Mary the Great, Cambridge
• Church of St Mary the Less, Cambridge
• St Mary's Church, Huntingdon

Cheshire

• St Mary's Church, Acton
• St Mary's Chapel, Arley
• St Mary's Church, Astbury
• Church of St Mary the Virgin, Bosley
• St Mary's Church, Bruera
• St Mary's and St Michael's Church, Burleydam
• St Mary's Church, Coddington
• St Mary's Church, Congleton
• St Mary's Church, Crewe
• St Mary's Church, Disley
• St Mary's Church, Dodleston
• St Mary's Church, Eccleston
• St Mary and All Saints' Church, Great Budworth
• St Mary's Church, Hale
• St Mary's Church, Halton
• St Mary's Church, Handbridge
• St Mary's Chapel, High Legh
• Church of St Mary of the Angels, Hooton
• St Mary's Church, Lymm
• St Mary's Church, Nantwich
• St Mary's and St Helen's Church, Neston
• St Mary's Church, Nether Alderley
• St Mary's Church, Pulford
• St Mary's Church, Rostherne
• St Mary's Church, Sandbach
• St Mary's Church, Thornton-le-Moors
• St Mary's Church, Tilston
• St Mary's Church, Warrington
• St Mary's Church, Weaverham
• St Mary's Church, Whitegate
• St Mary's Church, Widnes
• Church of St Mary the Virgin, Wistaston

Cornwall

• St Mary's Church, St Mary's, Isles of Scilly
• St Mary's Old Church, St Mary's, Isles of Scilly
• St Mary the Virgin's Church, Week St Mary

Cumbria

• St Mary's Church, Abbeytown
• St Mary's Church, Allithwaite
• St Mary Magdalene's Church, Broughton-in-Furness
• St. Mary of Furness Roman Catholic Church, also known as St Mary's Church, Barrow-in-Furness
• St Mary's Church, Dalton-in-Furness
• St Mary's Church, Gosforth
• St Mary and St Michael's Church, Great Urswick
• St Mary's Church, Hethersgill, in the parish of Hethersgill
• St Mary's Church, Kirkby Lonsdale
• St Mary's Church, Penny Bridge
• St Mary's Church, Staveley
• St Mary's Church, Ulverston
• St Mary the Virgin's Church, Walney
• St Mary's Church, Walton
• St Mary's Church, Whicham
• St Mary's Church, Windermere
• St Mary's Church, Wreay

Derbyshire

• St Mary's Church, Chaddesden, Derby
• St Mary the Virgin's Church, Denby
• St Mary's Church, Derby
• St Mary the Virgin's Church, Newton Solney
• St Mary the Virgin's Church, South Darley
• St Mary the Virgin’s Church, Weston-on-Trent
• St Mary's Church, Wirksworth

Devon

• St Mary's Church, Appledore
• St Mary's Church, North Huish
• St Marychurch (village & parish), Torbay

Dorset

• St Mary the Virgin, Gillingham, Dorset
• St Mary's Church, Long Crichel
• St Mary's Church, Longfleet
• St Mary the Virgin, Tarrant Crawford

East Sussex

• St Mary Magdalen's Church, Brighton
• St Mary the Virgin, Brighton
• St Mary's Church, Hampden Park, Eastbourne
• St Mary and St Abraam Coptic Orthodox Church, Hove
• St Mary's Church, Preston Park
• St Mary's Church, Ticehurst
• St Mary's Church, Westham
• St Mary and St Peter's Church, Wilmington

Essex

• Church of St Mary the Virgin, Harlow
• St Mary's Church, Burnham on Crouch
• St Mary's Church, Chickney
• St Mary the Virgin, Great Warley
• St Mary's Church, Lawford
• St Mary the Virgin's Church, Little Bromley
• St Mary's Church, Mundon
• St Mary the Virgin's Church, Stansted Mountfitchet
• Old St Mary's Church, West Bergholt
• St Mary's Church, Widford, built by architect James Piers St Aubyn

Gloucestershire

• St Mary of the Angels Church, Brownshill
• St Mary's Church, Cheltenham
• St. Mary's Church, Fairford
• St. Mary's Church, Kempley, an English Heritage owned church in Kempley
• St Mary's Church, Little Washbourne
• Church of St Mary the Virgin, Meysey Hampton
• St Mary's Church, Shipton Solars
• St. Mary the Virgin, Wotton-under-Edge

Greater Manchester

• The Hidden Gem (St. Mary’s Roman Catholic Church), Manchester
• Church of St Mary the Virgin, Bowdon
• Church of St Mary the Virgin, Bury
• St Mary's Church, Cheadle
• St Mary the Virgin's Church, Deane
• Church of St Mary the Virgin, Eccles
• St Mary the Virgin's Church, Ellenbrook
• Church of St Mary, Hulme
• St Mary the Virgin's Church, Leigh
• St Mary's Church, Lower Ince
• St Mary's Church, Lowton
• St Mary's Church, Manchester
• Church of St Mary the Virgin, Prestwich
• St Mary's Church, Stockport

Hampshire

• St Mary's Church, Ashley
• St. Mary's Church, Bishopstoke
• St Mary's Church, Fordingbridge
• St Mary's Church, Hartley Wintney
• St. Mary's Church, Hayling Island
• St Mary's Church, Itchen Stoke
• St Mary's Church, Portsea
• Old Church of St Mary the Virgin, Preston Candover
• St. Mary's Church, South Stoneham
• St. Mary's Church, Southampton
• St Mary's Church, Twyford

Herefordshire

• St Mary's Church, Wormsley
• St Mary the Virgin's Church, Yazor

Hertfordshire

• Church of St. Mary the Virgin, Baldock
• St Mary Magdalene's Church, Caldecote
• St Mary's Church, Hemel Hempstead
• St. Mary's Church, Hitchin
• St Mary the Virgin's Church, Little Hormead
• St. Mary's Church, Northchurch, Berkhamsted
• St. Mary's Church, Watford
• St Mary the Virgin's Church, Yazor

Isle of Wight

• St. Mary's Church, Brading
• St. Mary's Church, Brighstone
• St. Mary's Church, Brook
• St. Mary's Church, Carisbrooke
• St. Mary's Church, Cowes

Kent

• St Mary's Church, Burham
• St Mary's Church, Capel-le-Ferne
• St Mary's Church, Eastwell
• Church of St Mary the Virgin, Fordwich
• St. Mary's Church, Hadlow
• St Mary's Church, Higham
• St Mary's Church, Lenham
• St Mary's Church, Luddenham
• St Mary's Church, Nettlestead
• St Mary's Church, Reculver, founded 669 and demolished 1809
• Church of St Mary the Virgin, Reculver
• St Mary's Church, Sandwich
• St Mary the Virgin Church, Thurnham
• St Mary's Church, Walmer

Lancashire

• Church of St Mary le Ghyll, Barnoldswick
• Church of St Mary and St Michael, Bonds
• St Mary's Church, Borwick
• Church of St Mary of the Assumption, Burnley
• St Mary's Church, Fernyhalgh
• St Mary's Church, Fleetwood
• St Mary's Church, Goosnargh
• St Mary's Church, Mellor
• St Mary's Church, Newchurch in Pendle
• St Mary's Church, Penwortham
• St Mary's Church, Preston
• St Mary Magdalen's Church, Ribbleton
• St Mary's Church, Tarleton
• St Mary's Church, Yealand Conyers

Leicestershire

• St Mary's Church, Anstey
• St Mary's Church, Barkby
• St Mary the Virgin's Church, Bottesford
• St Mary's Church, Brentingby
• St Mary's Church, Garthorpe
• St Mary's Church, Melton Mowbray
• St Mary's Church, Queniborough

Lincolnshire

• St Mary's Church, Barnetby
• St Mary's Church, Grimsby
• St. Mary's Church, Horncastle
• St Mary's Church, North Cockerington
• St Mary's Church, Stamford

London

• St Mary Abchurch
• St Mary Aldermary
• St Mary-at-Hill
• St Mary's Church, Barnes
• St Mary's Church, Battersea
• St Mary the Boltons
• St Mary's Church, Charing Cross Road
• St Mary's Roman Catholic Church, Clapham
• St Mary the Virgin, East Barnet
• St Mary's Church, Edmonton
• St Mary-at-Finchley Church
• St Mary's Church, Hampstead
• St Mary's Parish Church, Hampton
• St. Mary's Church, Hanwell
• St. Mary's, Harrow on the Hill
• St Mary's Church, Hendon
• St Mary's Church, Islington
• St Mary's, Bryanston Square, Marylebone
• St Mary the Virgin, Monken Hadley
• St Mary the Virgin, Mortlake
• St. Mary's Church, Putney
• St. Mary's Church, Rotherhithe
• St Mary's Church, Somers Town
• St. Mary's New Church, Stoke Newington (parish)
• St. Mary's Old Church, Stoke Newington
• St Mary's Church, Summerstown
• St Mary's Church, Teddington
• St Mary's, Twickenham
• St. Mary's Church, Walthamstow
• St Mary's Church, Wimbledon
• St Mary's Greek Orthodox Church, Wood Green, also known as St Mary's Cathedral
• St Mary-le-Bow
• St Mary le Strand
• St Mary Woolnoth

Merseyside

• Prescot Parish Church, dedicated to St Mary
• St Mary's Church, BillingeSt Mary the Virgin's Church, Newton Solney
• St Mary's Church, Eastham
• St Mary's Church, Grassendale
• St Mary's Church, Knowsley
• St Mary's Church, Presbytery and Convent, Little Crosby
• St Mary's Church, Walton-on-the-Hill
• St Mary's Church, Wavertree
• St Mary's Church, West Derby, Liverpool
• St Mary's Church, Woolton, Liverpool

Norfolk

• St Mary's Church, Barton Bendish
• St Mary's Church, East Bradenham
• St Mary's Church, East Ruston
• St Mary's Church, Elsing
• St Mary's Church, Fordham
• St Mary's Church, Heacham
• St Mary's Church, Islington, Norfolk
• St Mary's Church, Moulton
• St Mary the Virgin's Church, Wiggenhall

Northamptonshire

• St. Mary's Church, Higham Ferrers
• St Mary the Virgin's Church, Maidwell

North Yorkshire

• St Mary's Church, Birdforth
• St Mary's Church, Conistone
• St Mary the Virgin's Church, Great Ouseburn
• St Mary's Church, Harrogate
• St Mary's Church, Lead
• St Mary's Church, Roecliffe
• St Mary's Church, Scarborough
• St Mary's Church, South Cowton
• St Mary's Church, Stainburn
• St Mary's, Studley Royal
• St. Mary's Church, Tadcaster
• Church of Saint Mary, Whitby

Nottinghamshire

• St. Mary's Church, Arnold
• St. Mary's Church, Attenborough
• St. Mary's Church, Barnstone
• St Mary's Church, Bleasby
• St Mary's Church, Bunny
• St Mary's Church, Car Colston
• St Mary's Church, Carlton-on-Trent
• Church of St Mary the Virgin, Clumber Park
• St Mary's Church, East Leake
• St Mary's Church, Edwinstowe
• St. Mary's Church, Greasley
• St Mary's Church, Lowdham
• St Mary's Church, Norton Cuckney
• St Mary's Church, Nottingham
• Church of St Mary the Virgin, Plumtree
• St. Mary's Church, Radcliffe on Trent
• St Mary the Virgin's Church, West Stockwith
• St. Mary's Church, Westwood
• St. Mary's Church, Wollaton Park

Oxfordshire

• St Mary the Virgin's Church, Black Bourton
• St Mary's Church, Chastleton
• St Mary's Church, Newnham Murren
• St Mary's Church, North Leigh
• University Church of St Mary the Virgin, Oxford
• St Mary's Church, Pyrton

Rutland

• St Mary the Virgin's Church, Ayston

Shropshire

• St Mary's Church, Acton Burnell
• St Mary Magdalene's Church, Battlefield
• Church of St. Mary Magdalene, Bridgnorth
• St Mary the Virgin's Church, Bromfield
• St Mary's Church, Burford
• St Mary's Church, Cleobury Mortimer
• St Mary's Church, Edstaston
• St Mary's Church, Ellesmere
• St Mary's Church, Hopesay
• St Mary's Church, Shrewsbury

Somerset

• Church of St Mary the Virgin, Barrington
• Church of St Mary the Virgin, Batcombe
• St Mary's Church, Bathwick
• St Mary the Virgin's Church, Bathwick
• Church of St Mary, Berrow
• Church of St Mary, Bishops Lydeard
• Church of St Mary, Bridgwater
• Church of St Mary & All Saints, Broomfield
• Church of St Mary, Bruton
• Church of St Mary, Cannington
• Church of St Mary the Virgin, Chard
• St Mary Magdalene's Church, Charlcombe
• Church of St Mary, Chedzoy
• Church of St Mary Magdalene, Chewton Mendip
• Church of St Mary, Christon
• Church of St Mary the Virgin, Croscombe
• Church of St Mary Magdalene, Ditcheat
• Church of St Mary, East Brent
• Church of St Mary the Virgin, East Stoke
• Church of St Mary Magdalene, Great Elm
• Church of St Mary, Hardington
• Church of St Mary, Hemington
• Church of St Mary, Ilminster
• Church of St Mary the Virgin, Isle Abbotts
• Church of St Mary, Kingston St Mary
• Church of St Mary, Litton
• Church of St Mary, Luccombe
• Church of St Mary, Marston Magna
• Church of St Mary, Meare
• Church of St Mary, Moorlinch
• Church of St Mary, Mudford
• Church of St Mary, Nempnett Thrubwell
• Church of St Mary the Virgin, Nettlecombe
• Church of St Mary, North Petherton
• Church of St Mary the Virgin, Norton Sub Hamdon
• Church of St Mary, Orchardlea
• St Mary's Church, Portbury
• Church of St Mary, Rimpton
• St Mary's Church, Saltford
• Church of St Mary, Spaxton
• Church of St Mary the Virgin, Stanton Drew
• Church of St Mary Magdalene, Stocklinch
• Church of St Mary, Stogumber
• Church of St Mary, Wedmore
• Church of St Mary, West Buckland
• Church of St Mary the Virgin, Westonzoyland
• St Mary Magdalene, Taunton
• Church of St Mary and St Peter, Winford
• Church of St Mary Magdalene, Winsford
• Church of St Mary, Witham Friary
• Church of St Mary, Woolavington
• Church of St Mary, Yatton

South Yorkshire

• Church of St Mary the Virgin, Beighton, Sheffield
• St Mary's Church, Bolsterstone
• St Mary's Church, Bramall Lane
• St Mary's Church, Handsworth, Sheffield
• St Mary's Church, Tickhill, Doncaster

Staffordshire

• St Mary's Church, Blymhill
• St Mary the Virgin's Church, Bromfield
• St Mary's Church, Lichfield
• St Mary's Church, Patshull
• St. Mary the Virgin Church, Uttoxeter
• St. Mary's Catholic Church, Uttoxeter

Suffolk

• St Mary's Church, Akenham
• St Mary's Church, Badley
• St Mary's Church, Bungay
• St Mary the Virgin's Church, Cavendish
• St Mary's Church, Chilton
• St Mary's Church, Ickworth
• St Mary's Church, Redgrave
• St Mary's Church, Rickinghall Superior
• St Mary the Virgin's Church, Stonham Parva
• St Mary's Church, Washbrook

Surrey

• St Mary's Church, Ewell
• Church of St. Mary, Fetcham
• Church of St Mary the Virgin, Horsell
• St Mary's, Staines

Teesside

• St. Mary's Church, Longnewton, Stockton-on-Tees

Tyne and Wear

• St Mary's Church, Sunderland

Warwickshire

• St. Mary's Church, Atherstone
• St. Mary's Church, Leamington Spa
• St Mary's Church, Warwick

West Midlands

• St. Mary's Church, Aldridge
• St Mary's Church, Handsworth
• St Mary's Church, Moseley
• St Mary's Church, Selly Oak
• St Mary's Church, Temple Balsall
• St Mary's Church, Walsgrave

West Sussex

• St. Mary's Church, Broadwater
• St Mary's Church, Goring-by-Sea
• St Mary the Virgin's Church, North Stoke
• St Mary de Haura Church, Shoreham-by-Sea
• St Mary's Church, Slaugham
• Church of St Mary the Blessed Virgin, Sompting
• St Mary's Church, Walberton
• St Mary's Church, West Chiltington

West Yorkshire

• St. Mary the Virgin Church, Boston Spa
• St. Mary's Church, Garforth
• St Mary's Church, Halifax
• St Mary the Virgin's Church, Middleton
• St. Mary's Church, Swillington

Wiltshire

• St Mary's Church, Chute Forest
• St Mary's Church, Maddington
• St Mary's Church, Marlborough, an Anglican church in Marlborough
• St Mary's Church, Old Dilton
• St Mary's Church, Purton
• St Mary's Church, in Shrewton
• St Mary's Church, South Tidworth
• St Mary's Church, Wilton

Worcestershire

• St Mary's Church, Wythall

Scotland[edit]

• St Mary's Church, Auchindoir, Aberdeenshire
• Church of St Mary the Virgin, Arbroath, Angus
• St Mary's Episcopal Church, Dunblane, Stirling
• St Mary's Collegiate Church, Haddington, East Lothian
• Dairsie Old Church, formerly St Mary's Church, Fife
• St Mary's Church, Cove Bay, Aberdeenshire
• Dundee Parish Church (St Mary's)
• St Mary's Chapel, Wyre, Orkney
• St Mary's Chapel, Rattray, Aberdeenshire
• Chapel of St. Mary, Colonsay, Argyll
• St Mary, Our Lady of Victories Church, Dundee
• Priory Church of St Mary of Mount Carmel, South Queensferry
• Church of St Mary on the Rock, St Andrews
• Saint Mary's, Calton, Glasgow
• St Mary's Cathedral, Edinburgh (Episcopal), Edinburgh

Wales[edit]
Anglesey

• St Mary's Church, Bodewryd
• St Mary's Church, Holyhead
• St Mary's Church, Llanfair Mathafarn Eithaf
• St Mary's Church, Llanfairpwllgwyngyll
• St Mary's Church, Llanfair-yng-Nghornwy
• St Mary's Church, Llanfair-yn-Neubwll
• St Mary's Church, Llanfair-yn-y-Cwmwd
• St Mary's Church, Llannerch-y-medd
• St Mary's Church, Menai Bridge
• St Mary's Church, Pentraeth
• St Mary's Church, Rhodogeidio
• St Mary's Church, Tal-y-llyn

Bridgend

• St Mary's Church, Coity Higher

Cardiff

• St Mary's Church, Cardiff, collapsed and abandoned c. 1700

Carmarthenshire

• St Mary's Church, Llanfair-ar-y-bryn
• St Mary's Church, Llanllwch
• Church of Saint Mary, Kidwelly

Conwy

• St Mary's Church, Betws-y-Coed
• Church of St Mary & All Saints, Conwy
• St Mary's Church, Llanrwst, demolished

Denbighshire

• St Mary's Church, Derwen
• St Mary's Church, Betws Gwerful Goch

Flintshire

• St Mary's Church, Cilcain
• Church of St Mary the Virgin, Halkyn
• St Mary's Church, Mold

Gwynedd

• St Mary's Church, Penllech

Monmouthshire

• Priory Church of St Mary, Abergavenny
• St Mary's Church, Caldicot
• St Mary's Church, Chepstow
• Church of St Mary the Virgin, Llanfair Kilgeddin
• St Mary's Church, Magor
• St Mary's Priory Church, Monmouth
• Prior Church of St Mary, Usk

Newport

• St Mary's Church, Marshfield, Newport

Powys

• St Mary's Church, Brecon

Pembrokeshire

• St Mary's Church, Haverfordwest
• St Mary's Church, Tenby

Swansea

• St Mary's Church, Pennard
• St Mary's Church, Swansea

 

[Philip_B]

The question I ask, and the great fear I have is, if we remove Mary theotikos from the story and simply relegate her to the back rooms of our doctrine, what does this do to our theology of the atonement?

Do we damage our soteriology in order to save us from the risk of falling into error?

How do we embrace the humanity of God in Christ Jesus without some sensible acknowledgement of the role of Mary?

Veiled in flesh the Godhead see
Hail the incarnate Deity
Pleased as man with man to dwell
Jesus, our Emmanuel​

 

[Philip_B]

So do you deny that God can speak to us through His scripture? That God, the Creator of the universe is incapable of communicating His truth to His creation?

I have no idea how you could concoct that from anything that @Root of Jesse said. Every experience I have had of what @Root of Jesse has to say declares boldly that God who called the universe into being is constantly communication his love for all creation, through scripture, through sacraments and beyond.

 

[Open Heart]

It is in praying to her, as one prays to God

This is the WHOLE POINT which we bring up over, and over, and over again -- we do NOT pray to her "as one prays to God." When we talk to Mary, we are asking her, no different than we would ask you, to pray for us to God through Christ. That's NOTHING like praying to God.

 

[Open Heart]

My feeling is that have a high view of Mary, Mother of the Lord, is sufficiently understood in embracing the story of our salvation as found in the Bible. I love you and rubbish your Mum does not work for me. Sorry, but I don't need to follow the Pope, to have a reasonable opinion of the one to whom the Angel said Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with you.

Good, sound, reasoning.

 

[Commander Xenophon]

Close to the very heart of the Christian story is a woman. She is integrally involved in the birth of Jesus, in a way that leaves the rest of us wondering what it must be like to be so close. She is personally involved in the events at Calvary, and is one of a few people addressed personally directly by Jesus from the cross. She was there at the first miracle in Cana of Galilee.

She is interestingly a source of significant division within Christianity, and regarded by many, not so much as the mother of our saviour as a dead Roman Catholic.

According to the received traditions she lived out her years in Ephesus, in company with John, the Apostle, in what is seen as the fulfilment of Jesus wishes from the Cross. Given the close association with John the Apostle and the Fourth Gospel, it is indeed interesting that John never refers to her by name, and she appears twice in the Gospel, in the Wedding at Cana in Galilee and at the Cross. It is left to Luke to tell us the accounts of the Annunciation, the Visitation, The Pondering, the Birth, The Presentation. Whilst women are more important in Luke's account, they are by no means absent in John's account. Perhaps it was something of a protection of her that lead to John's account not placing her front and centre.

Paul presents the Gospel without any accounting for Mary. Paul's account of the Gospel is clearly and centrally focused on the cross and resurrection. There is no doubt that the Apostolic Church had a hard cutting edge Gospel that was in a sense quite masculine, and indeed at times almost brutal. The early Church fathers saw Mary as a figure in the account rise to a higher level of prominence, and increasingly it was acknowledged that to understand the Cross and the Atonement you had to understand int Incarnation, and at the centre of understanding the Incarnation is the biggest yes in history. Indeed, the prominence of the incarnation in the Prologue of John's Gospel in that sense underlines Mary's role by not calling her out by name.

‘Here am I, the servant of the Lord; let it be with me according to your word.’​

View attachment 190074​

She is for us the very Icon of the Church, she responds in obedience and brings Christ into the world. The role of the Church is absolutely to respond in obedience and bring Christ into the world.

In a very real way she is the prototype for every Christian, as we are all called to respond in obedience and bring Christ into the world.

How is it that this woman who means so much in the outworking of our salvation could be the cause of so much derision and division within the body of Christ - the Church?

Very nice thread!

 

[Root of Jesse]

So do you deny that God can speak to us through His scripture? That God, the Creator of the universe is incapable of communicating His truth to His creation?

No. I deny that you're given the ability to judge people's hearts.