Mary - Christian Prototype

[Gabriel Anton]

How is it that this woman who means so much in the outworking of our salvation could be the cause of so much derision and division within the body of Christ - the Church?

Peace be with you.

May Almighty God pour Endless Blessings from Heaven upon you.

May the Blessed Virgin Mary, Mother of Almighty God, intercede for you before the Throne of Almighty God to supply you with Endless Graces and Mercy from Heaven.

You started a Fantastic Thread. It takes a Fantastic Person to start a Fantastic Thread.

To answer the question at the bottom of your OP.

It is God's Will.

Genesis 3 English Standard Version (ESV)

14 The Lord God said to the serpent,

“Because you have done this,
cursed are you above all livestock
and above all beasts of the field;
on your belly you shall go,
and dust you shall eat
all the days of your life.

15 I will put enmity between you and the woman,
and between your offspring and her offspring;
he shall bruise your head,
and you shall bruise his heel.”


I will share a few things here with you.

From the Book, "True Devotion to the Blessed Virgin" by St. Louis Marie Grignion de Montford:

It is by the Most Holy Virgin Mary that Jesus has come into the world, and it is also by Her that He has to reign in the world.

Mary has been singularly hidden during Her Life. It is on this account that the Holy Ghost and the Church call Her "Alma Mater", — Mother secret and hidden. Her Humility was so profound that She had no propensity on earth more powerful or more unintermitting than that of hiding Herself, even from Herself, as well as from every other creature, so as to be known to God only. He heard Her prayers to Him, when She begged to be hidden, to be humbled, and to be treated as in all respects poor and of no account. He took pleasure in hiding Her from all human creatures in Her Conception, in Her Birth, in Her Life, and in Her Resurrection and Assumption. Her Parents even did not know Her, and the Angels often asked of each other: Quae est ista? Who is that? Because the Most High either hid Her from them, or if He revealed any thing of Her to them, it was nothing compared to what He kept undisclosed.


This is why in the Holy Scriptures, the Blessed Virgin Mary is very hidden. Only to the Chosen is She Revealed.


I also want to tell you something about one of the children from Fatima named Jacinta. She was the youngest of the 3 children. One day while the children were playing together, Jacinta started throwing flowers at the other 2 children from her basket. So Lucia who was the oldest asked her what she was doing? Jacinta replied, "I'm just following what the Angels do in the pictures in Church. They throw flowers."

The Mysteries of our Faith and God Almighty are Endless and Eternal.

May God Almighty bless you a Thousand Fold.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

I required proof to believe that God had a mind and was not simply Natural Law.

And then I sorted out my religion based upon concrete proof.

So, we came at religion from very different starting points and via very different pathways.

Agreed everyone's journey is different.

Was just trying to understand all the angst that appeared to be expressed over Lourdes when it appeared you were convinced of the miraculous there anyway (which is not a bad thing in my book). Looks like I was off base in my concern. Sorry about that. I think I may have misunderstood something said as wishing the Church would somehow "validate" or "approve" Lourdes, which is why I said I was not aware of any Bishop discouraging people and many Bishops encouraging people to go if they can.

 

[Paul Yohannan]

Am aware of no Bishop discouraging visits to Lourdes.

Indeed; Lourdes is officially recognized by the RCC.

Conversely, many pious bishops discourage pilgrimages to Medjugorje because that apparition is not officially sanctioned and lacks the good fruit in terms of vocations, healing et cetera one finds at Lourdes.

I personally can't imagine why anyone would go to Medjugorje when Lourdes exists.

 

[Paul Yohannan]

If Mary was an important piece of NT church life, don't you think it would have been established 1900 years ago?

It was. See: Luke 1.

The reality is that the veneration of St. Mary is the ancient and established tradition; the rejection of that veneration is novel.

In the fourth century, there were two obscure sects, the Antidicomarians, who refused veneration to Mary, and the Collyridians, who worshipped her; both of these errors were rejected by the early Church.

 

[JoeP222w]

Thank you for your contribution

I do not accept the Idolatry claim. Perhaps you have failed to understand my use of the word icon which in Orthodox traditions are a window through which we see to a truth beyond, and indeed I identified the truth beyond in terms of obedience and bringing Christ into the world. To suggest prototype I was endeavouring to make the same truth apparent.

Mary always points to Jesus. I see that as the force of her role in the wedding feast in Cana of Galilee.

John 2:5
His mother said to the servants, ‘Do whatever he tells you.’​

I agree absolutely that Mary always directs us to Jesus, he is the focus of her gaze and her embrace. God clearly thought well of her, and so do I. That does not imply idolatry, nor do I for one moment intend to suggest that we are not called to be Christ-like.

If there is an image or statue or icon of Mary in a church and people are bowing down or kneeling before it, that is idolatry.

I am not saying you specifically do that, but some people do, and yes, they are actually worshiping Mary.

I see nowhere in the Bible that God commands us to follow or to be like Mary. We are commanded to follow Christ and be Christ-like. That is why I do not accept Mary as a prototype Christian. She was a blessed woman by God, but never elevated to be a prototype model of how we should all be.

 

[JoeP222w]

She is the Queen of Heaven and Earth.

Which Bible verse says this?

That is what God had planned for Adam and Eve (He to be King, She to be Queen) if they had not fallen.

Again, provide the Bible verse that teaches this.

Jesus, the man, is the King of Creation now. As a man, He has fulfilled all that Adam failed to do, and has been elevated to that position of rulership that Adam could have had. Mary is the New Eve, and hence is also the Queen that Eve could have been.

Jesus is God and He is the King of kings. He always has been and always will be. It is a completely false teaching to claim that He was "elevated to that position".

Again, provide scripture that says that "Mary is the New Eve".

You have to study scripture to understand this, not listen to Jack Chick comics.

Sir, do not claim you know me, because you don't. I don't listen to (or read) Jack Chick comics. And don't claim to school me on scripture when you provide absolutely no scripture to back up your assertions.

 

[JoeP222w]

Quite judgemental.

Ok.

John 7:24 Do not judge by appearances, but judge with right judgment."

Mary points us to Jesus, nothing more. Even in her apparitions, she points to her son.

That is not a refutation of my point.

 

[Paul Yohannan]

If there is an image or statue or icon of Mary in a church and people are bowing down or kneeling before it, that is idolatry.

No, it's not, as there is no latria, no worship, only doulia or veneration.

I am not saying you specifically do that, but some people do, and yes, they are actually worshiping Mary.

I do that, and I take grave exception to being accused of idolatry or of offering worship to anything other than God.

I see nowhere in the Bible that God commands us to follow or to be like Mary.

I suggest you reread Luke 1.

We are commanded to follow Christ and be Christ-like. That is why I do not accept Mary as a prototype Christian. She was a blessed woman by God, but never elevated to be a prototype model of how we should all be.

Everyone who follows Christ and is saved becomes a saint and is a prototype for Christian behavior, especially St. Mary.

Which Bible verse says this?

Again, provide the Bible verse that teaches this.

This of course is a reference to the discredited idea of sola scriptura, a 16th century innovation.

Jesus is God and He is the King of kings. He always has been and always will be. It is a completely false teaching to claim that He was "elevated to that position".

If Jesus is God, then how is St. Mary not Mother of God? This is the tremendous non sequitur that plagues the neo-Nestorian, neo-Antidicomarian arguments being put forward in this thread.

Ok.

John 7:24 Do not judge by appearances, but judge with right judgment."

You can say that, and I can say "Judge not lest ye not be judged."

 

[JoeP222w]

No, it's not, as there is no latria, no worship, only doulia or veneration.

Would Moses have bought that if he walked into someone's tent in the wilderness and found them bowing down before a statue?

I suggest you reread Luke 1.

Not a refutation of my comment. Nowhere in Luke 1 are we commanded to follow or be like Mary. You have not demonstrated this.

Everyone who follows Christ and is saved becomes a saint and is a prototype for Christian behavior, especially St. Mary.

You are missing my point. Nowhere in the Bible are we told to follow after any believer in Jesus Christ as a prototype. We are commanded to follow Christ. That is not to say that we can not learn from those who have gone before. And so very little is said about Mary in the Bible that it is a very great stretch to say that she is a prototype for Christians to emulate for all time, whereas the entire Bible is about Jesus Christ. Christians are called that for a reason. Christians follow Christ.

This of course is a reference to the discredited idea of sola scriptura, a 16th century innovation.

Totally disagree and not a refutation of my comment. Sola Scriptura has never been refuted by those who are honest, but often grossly mischaracterized.

If Jesus is God, then how is St. Mary not Mother of God?

This has nothing to do with my comment that you are responding to.

You can say that, and I can say "Judge not lest ye not be judged."

And you would be using one of the most common twisting of scripture. "Judge not lest ye not be judged" is referring to hypocritical judgment, not evaluation of a statement in the light of God's word. Likewise, in your use of such a claim, you are violating the same principle you are claiming to uphold by judging my comments. Are you not using judgment to evaluate my comments? That would be hypocritical judging.

 

[Paul Yohannan]

And you would be using one of the most common twisting of scripture. "Judge not lest ye not be judged" is referring to hypocritical judgment, not evaluation of a statement in the light of God's word.

I think it is directly applicable to people who accuse other Christians of idolatry, of worshipping Mary, despite our insistence otherwise.

 

[Paul Yohannan]

This has nothing to do with my comment that you are responding to.

It has everything to do with it. If we believe Jesus is God, St. Mary is the Mother of God, logically.

Otherwise, we essentially have to split Jesus into two in the manner of Nestorius.

Flawed Mariology is flawed Christology.

 

[Paul Yohannan]

Would Moses have bought that if he walked into someone's tent in the wilderness and found them bowing down before a statue?

It was under Moses that we encounter the first divinely ordained iconography in the form of the Rod of Aaron and the carved Seraphim on the Ark.

And the Ark was obviously venerated.

The reverence the Jews showed it (and which the Ethiopian Orthodox, who have it, continue to show it), is directly equivalent to the reverence correctly displayed before icons of the Theotokos.

 

[Paul Yohannan]

Not a refutation of my comment. Nowhere in Luke 1 are we commanded to follow or be like Mary. You have not demonstrated this.

Is Luke 1 not divinely inspired?

 

[JoeP222w]

It has everything to do with it. If we believe Jesus is God, St. Mary is the Mother of God, logically.

Otherwise, we essentially have to split Jesus into two in the manner of Nestorius.

Flawed Mariology is flawed Christology.

Mary bore Jesus in her womb by the power of the Holy Spirit, but she is not the mother of God in the sense that she is eternal or perfect or that she is greater than God.

But I still uphold that that comment is not a response to my comment, but rather a diversion.

 

[JoeP222w]

It was under Moses that we encounter the first divinely ordained iconography in the form of the Rod of Aaron and the carved Seraphim on the Ark.

And the Ark was obviously venerated.

The reverence the Jews showed it (and which the Ethiopian Orthodox, who have it, continue to show it), is directly equivalent to the reverence correctly displayed before icons of the Theotokos.

Show in the Bible where Moses and the Israelites were commanded by God to bow down before the Ark of the Covenant or the Rod of Aaron out of "veneration", because it would be interesting to me to see that passage.

 

[JoeP222w]

Is Luke 1 not divinely inspired?

I never said it wasn't.

But, again, you are not defending your assertion from Luke 1 that Mary is a prototype Christian or a role model that Christians are commanded to follow. You are just using a vague reference, that is not a defense of your argument.

 

[Paul Yohannan]

Mary bore Jesus in her womb by the power of the Holy Spirit,

I very much hope that you are not claiming that what was in her womb was not God.

If Jesus is God, she bore God in her womb.

but she is not the mother of God in the sense that she is eternal or perfect or that she is greater than God.

In declaring St. Mary to be the Mother of God, we are not saying that she is eternal, perfect or greater than God.

To claim that we are is a huge distortion of Cyrillian Christology as observed both by Chalcedonians and by the Oriental Orthodox. St. Cyril never wrote that, or anything like that. Indeed, at the time, the Church regarded as anathema a heretical sect known as the Collyridians precisely because they worshipped Mary.

 

[Paul Yohannan]

I never said it wasn't.

But, again, you are not defending your assertion from Luke 1 that Mary is a prototype Christian or a role model that Christians are commanded to follow. You are just using a vague reference, that is not a defense of your argument.

In Luke 1, St. Mary says that "all generations will call me blessed." This remark is expressed uncritically. Therefore, if we do not regard her as blessed, we are defying inspired scripture.

Beyond that, if someone is blessed, we must look to them as exemplary, as embodying Christian virtues insofar as they are blessed.

 

[Paul Yohannan]

Show in the Bible where Moses and the Israelites were commanded by God to bow down before the Ark of the Covenant or the Rod of Aaron out of "veneration", because it would be interesting to me to see that passage.

I could do that, because such texts exist, but it would be offtopic to this thread. What is more, it would also be a concession to Sola Scriptura influenced "verse warring."

I am not going to provide the verse numbers; I will simply assert on my authority as one of the leading Orthodox apologists on CF.com that numerous texts describing such veneration exist, and they can be found via Google.

Really, it should not matter that verses exist to support the veneration of eikons of the Theotokos; the simple fact that such veneration was commanded by the Second Council of Nicea, for Chalcedonians, and enjoined upon Oriental Orthodox via internal ecclesiastical tradition, should suffice. Indeed, there is reason to believe the Assyrians also historically venerated such icons, which would mean this veneration was a unified aspect of all Nicene Christians, from the end of Iconoclasm in 843, until John Calvin.

If one, therefore, is to invoke any verse as an authority on this, it would be Matthew 16:18. However, additional support in the OT does exist and can be found via Google.

 

[JoeP222w]

I very much hope that you are not claiming that what was in her womb was not God.

1. God is not a "what". God is a "who".
2. Never said that the child that Mary bore was not fully man/fully God.

If Jesus is God, she bore God in her womb.

Mary bore the incarnation of God in her womb. Jesus is fully God and fully man. And I am not saying that Mary bore a fully grown man in her womb. I use "man" as in fully human male.

In declaring St. Mary to be the Mother of God, we are not saying that she is eternal, perfect or greater than God.

Maybe not dogmatically, but that is what that seems to claim (that Mary precedes Jesus).