Mary - Christian Prototype

[AnticipateHisComing]

I think it is directly applicable to people who accuse other Christians of idolatry, of worshipping Mary, despite our insistence otherwise.

Jesus taught that money can be worshiped and was by those very "devote" Jews of his day. So just because one does not think they are worshiping something does not mean they aren't.

Now look at the deception of this thread started in the OP. It postulates that Mary was a great women because she bore Jesus. It then admits that there are little details recorded in scripture about how she actually lived. But, then it states we should use her for a "prototype". Does that mean we should all bear God's Son? Ridiculous!

In fact this OP and thread argues for revering of Mary, not imitating of her; good it does because there are others who are described in scripture by what they did that are better. Start with Jesus.

Now when people pray to Mary and travel a great pilgrimage to a shrine built in her honor they do a from of worship of Mary like devoting time and talents to any cause besides the divine. Now we all do this to some extent though.

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

Indeed; Lourdes is officially recognized by the RCC.

So the position that Catholics hold of Mary is correct because the RCC officially recognize Lourdes. They did not at first. Further, they do not require members to believe Lourdes true because it was a private revelation. This is a convincing argument?

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

This is why in the Holy Scriptures, the Blessed Virgin Mary is very hidden. Only to the Chosen is She Revealed.

What the heck is "Chosen"? Is that a deceptive way of saying the elect or is it just a division of super Christians?

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

In Luke 1, St. Mary says that "all generations will call me blessed." This remark is expressed uncritically. Therefore, if we do not regard her as blessed, we are defying inspired scripture.

Beyond that, if someone is blessed, we must look to them as exemplary, as embodying Christian virtues insofar as they are blessed.

So what do you do that Mary did as described in scripture? You in slight of hand are changing something that God did to her, chose her to be the mother of Jesus and turning it into something that we should do, build shrines to her, say prayers to her.

 

[Paul Yohannan]

The Ark of the Covenant was revered for it having the Spirit of God in it.

No, it was venerated for containing the Word. As such, it was an eikon of the Incarnation and of the Theotokos.

Today it is just a box and to revere it is to regard it as an idol.

No; in venerating it we are venerating the incarnation, of which it is an icon.

And it has no power

It nearly caused a structural failure in the church built to accomodate it in the 1960s due to heat damage.

despite Indiana Jones and his search for it.

He should've gone to Ethiopia.

In the NT Jesus brought a new covenant. The old covenant with its centerpiece, the temple with all its objects of glory went out the window at that time.

This is only partially correct; to the extent that some relics of ancient Judaism survive, they remain valuable insofar as they point to the Incarnation.

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

the simple fact that such veneration was commanded by the Second Council of Nicea, for Chalcedonians, and enjoined upon Oriental Orthodox via internal ecclesiastical tradition, should suffice.

If one, therefore, is to invoke any verse as an authority on this, it would be Matthew 16:18.

And here is the crux of the matter; all who claim authority from Peter can edict something outside of scripture.

This thread starts out with

How is it that this woman who means so much in the outworking of our salvation could be the cause of so much derision and division within the body of Christ - the Church?

As if the standing of Mary was beyond debate and the Church should be unified around her.

This thread ends up being just another contentious Protestant/Catholic fight.

 

[Paul Yohannan]

So what do you do that Mary did as described in scripture?

What I try to do is show the same unwavering confidence in God that St. Mary did. I have a problem with anxiety, so this is a struggle, and I find her story to be particularly inspiring.

You in slight of hand

*Sleight of hand

are changing something that God did to her,

St. Mary assented to it.

chose her to be the mother of Jesus

Jesus is God. St. Mary is the Mother of God.

and turning it into something that we should do, build shrines to her, say prayers to her.

No, what I am doing is saying that St. Mary was venerated by St. Gabriel, and that her veneration, which is the ancient and established practice of the Holy Orthodox church since antiquity, remains the correct thing to do.

 

[Paul Yohannan]

And here is the crux of the matter; all who claim authority from Peter can edict something outside of scripture.

The Orthodox Church does not recognize the Papacy and does not claim authority from St. Peter.

As if the standing of Mary was beyond debate

It is beyond debate for Lutherans and other traditional Protestants like @Philip_B, as well as Catholics and Orthodox.

and the Church should be unified around her.

It should absolutely be. There is no scriptural basis for disunity on this point.

This thread ends up being just another contentious Protestant/Catholic fight.

No, because the thread was posted by an Anglican (a Protestant) and a very large number of members posting in it who support the veneration of St. Mary are Protestants. A great many others are Eastern or Oriental Orthodox.

St. Mary is not a Protestant-Catholic issue, since most Protestants venerate her. Most of the reformers accepted the doctrine of her perpetual virginity. Luther, Calvin, Cranmer, Wesley...

 

[Paul Yohannan]

So the position that Catholics hold of Mary is correct because the RCC officially recognize Lourdes. They did not at first. Further, they do not require members to believe Lourdes true because it was a private revelation. This is a convincing argument?

It is not an argument I made.

I am not Catholic; I don't know one way or another whether Lourdes is genuine, and my church has not made that determination.

I can say the Orthodox do not agree with the RC doctrine of the immaculate conception of the Theotokos, but this owes to our rejection of the Augustinian concept of original sin, in favor of the alternative view of ancestral sin put forward by St. John Cassian (we believe in original sin, but we do not believe that it is imputed at conceptionas a result of sexual reproduction; thus our hamartiology does not require special circumstances surrounding the birth of the Theotokos).

 

[Paul Yohannan]

Jesus taught that money can be worshiped and was by those very "devote" Jews of his day. So just because one does not think they are worshiping something does not mean they aren't.

Jesus Christ is God incarnate. For Him, it is proper to judge; for us it is improper.

Now look at the deception of this thread started in the OP.

There is no deception in the OP.

It postulates that Mary was a great women because she bore Jesus. It then admits that there are little details recorded in scripture about how she actually lived. But, then it states we should use her for a "prototype". Does that mean we should all bear God's Son? Ridiculous!

This argument is a bit of a strawman. It would indeed be ridiculous to suggest we all give birth to God incarnate (Jesus Christ is not just the Son of God, but God Himself). However, the important lesson from the life of St. Mary is the importance of trusting in God, which she did, and as a result of her trust in Him and her assent to His will, the Incarnation occurred and God became incarnate and saved us.

In fact this OP and thread argues for revering of Mary, not imitating of her; good it does because there are others who are described in scripture by what they did that are better. Start with Jesus.

Jesus Christ is God, and is thus perfect.

Of any person in the Bible who is not God, none are described who surpass St. Mary in virtue.

Now when people pray to Mary and travel a great pilgrimage to a shrine built in her honor they do a from of worship of Mary like devoting time and talents to any cause besides the divine.

The worship they offer is to God, not Mary. By venerating the saints, we worship God, with whom they have united themselves.

 

[Philip_B]

[staff edited]
On the one hand, perhaps I should say, 'Thank you for the compliment' for no other remark could put me firmly alongside Paul, the Apostle to the Gentiles. However in truth I am no so deluded as to think that you intended any compliment.

I also intended no great contention, but rather in a sense of the oecumenical to look at Mary whose role is clearly a possibly motif for the evangelical in the Gospel, and offers a possibility of something where with a bit of sensitivity we might find some common ground. Clearly some people saw that, and so people didn't. Much of the contention in the thread was little to do with the original post, which specifically looked beyond the contentious.

So, my friend, thank you for the compliment, but I am not worthy of such high praise.

 

[Root of Jesse]

God and His inerrant word of the Bible.

So "God told me".

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

In this case, my reticence to provide the specific verses owes to the fact that I am tired of verses being weaponized in doctrinal debates.

Funny that you state it so. The sword is a weapon and scripture tells us to use it.

Ephesians 6:17 Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

How is it that this woman who means so much in the outworking of our salvation could be the cause of so much derision and division within the body of Christ - the Church?

I also intended no great contention, but rather in a sense of the oecumenical to look at Mary whose role is clearly a possibly motif for the evangelical in the Gospel, and offers a possibility of something where with a bit of sensitivity we might find some common ground. Clearly some people saw that, and so people didn't. Much of the contention in the thread was little to do with the original post, which specifically looked beyond the contentious.

In your OP you observed great division in the Church regarding Mary. Do you think your post would erase it? If you could acknowledge that the division has existed for a long time and has been debated many times, you should understand how this thread was destined to the contention that it now contains.

As far as being called a contentious person, that was just a trite response to the quote of another calling this fantastic.

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

The Orthodox Church does not recognize the Papacy and does not claim authority from St. Peter.

You wrote the following and list Matthew 16:18 for your authority, Peter the rock of the Church.

If one, therefore, is to invoke any verse as an authority on this, it would be Matthew 16:18.

Does your church not also have a similar claim to apostolic succession as does the RCC?

Make up your mind. Do you revere Mary because they did in the OT or because the authority continues in your church through Peter to "explain" all things doctrinal?

It is beyond debate for Lutherans and other traditional Protestants like @Philip_B, as well as Catholics and Orthodox.

You need to study Lutheran doctrine more in order to speak for them. Having left that church after 50 years, I can say they do not believe as you about Mary. Further, I know of no Protestant church that prays to Mary.

It should absolutely be. There is no scriptural basis for disunity on this point.

We are united around Jesus and he is the head of the church as scripture says, Colossians 1:18.

No, because the thread was posted by an Anglican (a Protestant) and a very large number of members posting in it who support the veneration of St. Mary are Protestants. A great many others are Eastern or Oriental Orthodox.

Anglican, not really Protestant as in a byproduct of the Reformation.

St. Mary is not a Protestant-Catholic issue, since most Protestants venerate her. Most of the reformers accepted the doctrine of her perpetual virginity. Luther, Calvin, Cranmer, Wesley...

If the early reformers accepted some veneration of Mary for the sake of tradition, that has largely disappeared from the churches reformed as we now look to scripture for supreme authority.

Again, list one Protestant church that prays to Mary.

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

Jesus Christ is God incarnate. For Him, it is proper to judge; for us it is improper.

Do you make this statement from your understanding of scripture or from some other authority?

If you would like to understand what scripture says of judging, understand that scripture makes distinction between two types of it. One is to judge those outside of the Church. Scripture says, reserve this for God. Romans 1:18 to Romans 2:1

The second type of judging is inside the church and scripture does give authority for elders to judge those. 1 Corinthians 5 and 6.

1 Corinthians 5:12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?

Further, don't misrepresent judging for testing. Judge not the actions of heathens. Test what is taught against scripture. Acts 17:11

This thread argues on the doctrine of veneration of Mary. This is a teaching to be tested against scripture. I do not believe any has posted a judgement against a person saying they should be cast out of the Church for performing an act that might appears as idolatry.

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

Of any person in the Bible who is not God, none are described who surpass St. Mary in virtue.

Not an accurate assessment of scripture.

Elizabeth said to Mary that she was blessed above all WOMEN.
The angel Gabriel said to Mary that she was highly favored, not the highest favored. Others have been also been highly favored, like Daniel. Moses was more humble than any. King Solomon was the wisest human to live. Enoch walked faithfully with God, pleased him and then was taken to heaven. John the Baptist was great in the sight of God. The apostle John was especially loved by Jesus. Peter the "rock" of the church.

But, take note of what Jesus said.

Matthew 11:11 Truly I tell you, among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist; yet whoever is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

Luke 11:27 As Jesus was saying these things, a woman in the crowd called out, “Blessed is the mother who gave you birth and nursed you.” 28 He replied, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it.”

The building of shrines to people, regardless of how well they served God is outside of what Jesus taught us to do.

Still waiting for a response to the Luke 11 passage that I raised before. Jesus is basically saying to not venerate Mary.

 

[Philip_B]

In your OP you observed great division in the Church regarding Mary. Do you think your post would erase it? If you could acknowledge that the division has existed for a long time and has been debated many times, you should understand how this thread was destined to the contention that it now contains.

As far as being called a contentious person, that was just a trite response to the quote of another calling this fantastic.

Someone whom I have no connection with save for our unity in Christ and membership of this Forum, and I was glad that they had found in helpful. I see no need to deride or make fun of that. I am sorry that you have found the post challenging, though as I mentioned before the opening post, whilst acknowledging the diversity of opinion that there is, did look for the common ground where we may stand together. Do I think a single post on CF will fix the Church? na! Do I think opening ourselves to one another's ideas thoughts and visions might be a step in the right direction? yep!

There is more that unites us than tears us apart.

 

[Paul Yohannan]

Funny that you state it so. The sword is a weapon and scripture tells us to use it.

Ephesians 6:17 Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.

I believe that if we read those passages in context with John 1, it obviously refers not to Scripture but to the Logos, of which Scripture is an icon.

What is more, the prerogative to wield scripture as a sword is reserved by the Church. It cannot be legitimately used in opposition to the Body of Christ.

 

[Paul Yohannan]

The second type of judging is inside the church and scripture does give authority for elders to judge those. 1 Corinthians 5 and 6.

Read the next verse.

1 Corinthians 5:13 makes it clear such a person is anathema; the judgment of them is reserved to God.