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Discussion in 'General Theology' started by FireDragon76, Dec 19, 2017.

  1. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    Not a matter of us knowing but knowing God is absolute truth and He has revealed Himself.
     
  2. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    Every time YHWH or Yeshua

    taught the Apostles and disciples (for the last 2000 years, i.e. always),

    YHWH and Yeshua TAUGHT us*/them* Absolute Truth. No error, ever.

    * ekklesia immersed in Yeshua's Name.
     
  3. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    As you point out elsewhere there is a historical church which does so. Yet more are "catching on" to the idea.

    As in the New Apostolic Reformation (NAR).

    What is the New Apostolic Reformation?

    7 Mountain Politics and Theology
     
  4. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    You mean aggressive as in pointing out there are absolutes?

    That seems to be the issue with post modernists. If you point out error by exegesis it is received as mean spirited.
     
  5. PeaceByJesus

    PeaceByJesus Unworthy servant for the Worthy Lord + Savior

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    Where did i say that the Lord was Jesus was being judgmental and compassionate? The fact is that He purposed told her and in detail "Thou hast well said, I have no husband For thou hast had five husbands; and he whom thou now hast is not thy husband: in that saidst thou truly." (John 4:18)

    But as becomes apparent, telling someone they are guilty of sin as violating the Law and thus are in need of salvation, not just some nice social "validation a human being" is necessarily considered judgmental, uncompassionate, needlessly harsh and makes Jesus look cruel.

    Maybe you want to eliminate John also from your basically truncated Bible.
    Yes, the Lord has stern warnings for blasphemy against his work, falsely ascribing it to demonic spirit, and cursing those who add or remove His words, and you seem to see any condemnation of sin in Scripture and those who preach as not being by the Spirit of Christ - unless of course, as here, you can apply them to those you oppose - and essentially impugn the authority of His words by engaging in your specious red-letter hermeneutic.

    Which is in addition to misconstruing the meaning of His words, as if his yoke being easy and his burden light meant a lower moral standard or focus on humanitarian type works and marginalizing emphasis on basic immoral actions such as avoiding fornication, as so often mentioned in the epistles which are largely ignored.

    Instead, interpreting Scripture by Scripture, we see that keeping the entire law with its obligatory ceremonial, ritual laws was both unable to be fully achieved without fail was a yoke "which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear" (Acts 15:10) and thus disallowed as means of salvation, whereas by trusting/relying upon the morally pure "Jesus Christ the Righteous" means one is accounted washed from his old sins, and sanctified and accounted justified on Christ;'s account.

    But which faith is only real and salvific if it is the kind which effects obedience thru the Spirit, and which includes by obeying the moral law regarding actions and carnal lusts, envy, etc., as well as proactively seeking the benefit of other according to the word of God, most importantly but not always most immediately their salvation.

    Resting in Christ for salvation while laboring to serve him are not mutually contradictory.

    We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. (2 Corinthians 5:8-10)

    Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences. For we commend not ourselves again unto you, but give you occasion to glory on our behalf, that ye may have somewhat to answer them which glory in appearance, and not in heart. For whether we be beside ourselves, it is to God: or whether we be sober, it is for your cause. (2 Corinthians 5:11-13)

    For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again. Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more. Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. (2 Corinthians 5:14-21)
     
  6. PeaceByJesus

    PeaceByJesus Unworthy servant for the Worthy Lord + Savior

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    Are you serious? How can you see my response in invoking Hebrews 12:1,2 as quite judgmental and harsh, in response to what Hendrick posted about a sin-focused person? Just how is telling such a one to look "unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God" (Hebrews 12:2) quite judgmental and harsh? Instead it is compassionate, as I must do the same.

    Certainly that takes faith, and indeed the sinner (us) needs to look to Him and see ourselves in Him by faith if we are going to overcome, but saying so is not quite judgmental and harsh. It seems you think Scripture is.

    Meanwhile you seem to have no problem with being quite judgmental and harsh in falsely judging me with being quite judgmental and harsh. Which is typical of liberalism.
     
  7. PeaceByJesus

    PeaceByJesus Unworthy servant for the Worthy Lord + Savior

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    Just where would you get that idea on this forum?
     
  8. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    What does Jesus tell sinners to do with sin ? To keep sinning, or to stop sinning ?

    (Absolutely True) (His Words, in Scripture)
     
  9. GingerBeer

    GingerBeer Cool and refreshing with a kick!

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    For a Christian (and evidently for one of Jehovah's witnesses) the captain is Jesus. It's worldly people who think of their national leader as captain.
     
  10. PeaceByJesus

    PeaceByJesus Unworthy servant for the Worthy Lord + Savior

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    That is a false dichotomy, as it is not an either or situation. Scripturally, in the secular civil realm rulers are ministers of God (Romans 13:4) "for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well" (1 Peter 2:14) and to such conditional obedience to enjoined.

    But as having a God-ordained office does not mean governors will necessarily always act as governed by God (and instead may punish them who do well and praise evildoers) prayers for such are obligated, for "all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty." (1 Timothy 2:2) Which i need to do more of.

    And since, in the providence of almighty God, we have a form of government in which we elect leaders who, directly or indirectly, will decide what is lawful or not for the inhabitants, and effect the lives of others, , and as we are to seek to see the Lord's will be done on earth as it is in Heaven, and do what is best for others, then understanding the consequences of action and inaction, then we should fulfill this obligation according to the principal seen in the ecclesiastical realm, choosing "men of honest report, full of the Holy Ghost and wisdom," to be appointed over this business. (Acts 6:3)

    Surely if Christians were part of a mixed multitude on a ship and had the ability to help choose who the captain and thus what manner of crew there would be, then to do nothing and let a wicked man be chosen would be contrary to love for God and His interest, and thus that of the welfare of others. And "to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin." (James 4:17)

    While i do sympathize with those who are so disgusted with the overall iniquitous nature of politics that they do not vote, since they feel culpable for electing a lesser-of-two-evils, yet to not care, and even construe those who acknowledge an obligation to choose "who the captain will be" as being worldly people, is perverse.

    That you would even do so is sad but revealing.
     
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2017
  11. GingerBeer

    GingerBeer Cool and refreshing with a kick!

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    You're asserting that Jesus is a worldly leader in some earthly nation? Or are you just misusing words?
     
  12. PeaceByJesus

    PeaceByJesus Unworthy servant for the Worthy Lord + Savior

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    No: I mean that claiming Christ as your captain (of your soul and kingdom) does not mean you must reject a civil ruler as being a captain in the earthly realm that you exist in and are to evangelize and work to see Him obeyed.

    It is not an either or situation unless you restrict Christians as existing in only one realm, and with their obedience only pertaining to that.

    This should not be hard to understand, nor what follows, as explained.
     
  13. GingerBeer

    GingerBeer Cool and refreshing with a kick!

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    I gave Jehovah's witnesses the win for the survey because they had the good sense to realise that worldly leaders are not "the captain of their souls".
     
  14. PeaceByJesus

    PeaceByJesus Unworthy servant for the Worthy Lord + Savior

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    GingerBeer said:

    I'll give Jehovah's witnesses the win in that survey. 7 percent Like Republicans but likely don't vote, 18 percent like Democrats but likely don't vote and 75 percent don't care about Republicans or Democrats. That's a good show.
    I nowhere said or inferred Christians voting for secular leaders meant they saw them as "the captain of their souls" so that quote, if meant to represent my argument, is fallacious, while to avoid warranted challenges to what certainly looked like commendation for not caring about who would lead the secular country, in which true (which they are not) Christians are to be salt and light in, then you should have said something like "they had the good sense to realise that worldly leaders are not "the captain of their souls".

    "...likely don't vote and 75 percent don't care about Republicans or Democrats. That's a good show" hardly says that, nor does realizing that worldly leaders are not "the captain of their souls" justify not caring about who the secular leaders will be.
     
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2017
  15. RDKirk

    RDKirk Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner Supporter

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    No. The animosity long preceded current political alignments.
     
  16. FireDragon76

    FireDragon76 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I don't disagree with that, but what exactly is revelation? Is it identical to the Bible? Or is it found in the person of Jesus Christ?
     
  17. FireDragon76

    FireDragon76 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Ok, I'll have to take your word for it. I'm not quite sure your point is. We look to Christ on the Cross for our assurance of grace. That is where we find our author and finisher of our faith. Made a curse for us. Now through the mystical exchange, we are imputed his righteousness. No sin is reckoned to us. That is how we understand looking to Christ.

    That's holiness theology. Our faith is not about sin-management, primarily. That's one thing Chaplain Mike does critique on Internet Monk.

    We understand God makes us holy in baptism. We should live in accordance with that, as a peculiar people, but that doesn't necessarily imply the kind of perfectionism you demand of "real Christians". Mostly it means being gracious to others, merciful, and seeking justice in the world. Not a self-focused kind of religion, no matter how holy it presumes to be. Luther rightly said even the desire for holiness is tainted by original sin.

    I honestly do respect people with sincere devotional piety and express it through what you'ld see as holiness living. But when you use your personal piety to attack at the heart of our faith, that we are sinners who can be confident in God's grace, that is what I object to. There is nothing wrong with piety, but it's important to keep it in perspective.
     
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2017
  18. FireDragon76

    FireDragon76 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    You are either ignorant of, or discounting the honor-shame culture that is the backdrop of the story, and reading it strictly through evangelical holiness theology, using it to justify your works-righteousness. The encounter in that context means something different in terms of the nuances. Jesus and the woman, being in an ancient near-eastern setting, would not think primarily in terms of guilt, but shame and honor. Jesus is not trying to make her feel guilty per se, he's trynig to unmask her shame, the reason she comes to the well alone. Not so he can make her feel guilty, but so that he can restore her sense of dignity.

    This is a subtle confusion of Law and Gospel. Your definition of obedience, as Hedrick has pointed out, is not really biblical, instead its an impossible standard that you carelessly judge others by. That makes your stance not that different from the pharisees.

    What makes you think we Lutherans don't serve Christ? I can tell you everybody I met at my church seems to be serving Christ in one way or another. Just comming to church to hear the Word is a kind of service to God. And it's not my place to judge them, and it's not yours either.
     
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2017
  19. GingerBeer

    GingerBeer Cool and refreshing with a kick!

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    It obviously summarises my intent. Your intent is for you to explain. I don't care to do that because it is your intent not mine and you know it while I can only guess at it.
     
  20. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    Struggling is one thing. It means one has their compass reading on the correct azimuth seeking the brethren for prayer and support.

    What you present is ignoring or sanctifying sin. For example, an unrepentant adulterer who continues in such sin but wanting acceptance by the assembly.
     
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