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Discussion in 'General Theology' started by FireDragon76, Dec 19, 2017.

  1. ☦Marius☦

    ☦Marius☦ Orthodox Hillbilly Supporter

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    I think he meant that Protestants over all seem to have an obsession with Cults, Occults, and End times prophecy. I know many protestants who can't have a theological discussion without talking about the mark of the beast or something similar, always tying it up to how the Catholic church is the new world order type stuff. This is so far from my experiences since finding Orthodoxy, where people generally just want to discuss growth and love, or communion- or just acting like a family of believers, instead of constantly going off blasting those we disagree with and finding every little thing that could possibly be labeled satanic.
     
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  2. FireDragon76

    FireDragon76 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Those are primarily issues of ethics and anthropology, not theology. One can be a theologically orthodox Lutheran in our denomination and yet differ from other evangelicals about ethics and anthropology in significant ways.

    For instance, conservatives in our church have tended to strongly support women's ordination for decades, as compared to our Catholic peers. It's because we have different understandings of the ordained ministry. For us it doesn't matter who is up at the pulpit or at the altar, as long as its a human being, they are capable of acting on behalf of Christ. What matters is that they are preaching according to our faith. They don't even have to be a particularly holy person, or impeccable in character, as long as they teach, preach, and administer the sacraments correctly. Therefore, we look for a calling from God and from the congregation rather than gender or sexual-orientation in determining who can be a pastor.

    We really have a spectrum of opinions on homosexuality. A large minority in our church do not consider it God's ideal, but at the same time many look for ways to try to welcome gay people in the life of the church. We are nonjudgemental and we are not a purity-focused church. That's not our mission. We favor accompanying people where they are at, and we can walk together in faith and be open to learning from each other, because we are all sinners.
     
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2017
  3. GingerBeer

    GingerBeer Cool and refreshing with a kick!

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    The more I read about "scriptural doctrine" the less I want to do with it. I'm sure it's because it isn't scriptural doctrine that's being described.
     
  4. FaithfulPilgrim

    FaithfulPilgrim Eternally Seeking

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    I haven’t noticed much animosity towards mainline Protestants from Evangelicals. Of course, there are things they disagree with each other, with Evangelicals expressing that they think the Mainliners are too liberal and compromising.

    I’m of an Evangelical upbringing, but I have great respect for Mainline denominations, mainly in the area of salvation as I think Evangelicals put too much emphasis on the single moment or experience of salvation and leave you in the dark about what happens next. So my view of salvation is closer to the Mainline denominations.

    While I don’t see necessarily see it as a Mainline vs Evangelical thing, I think the former are more likely to favor an egalitarian clergy while the latter is more likely to favor a complimentariam view of clergy.
     
  5. FireDragon76

    FireDragon76 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The ELCA is politically diverse. Half of us are registered Republicans.

    Donald Trump's recent appointee to the Supreme Court is an Episcopalian, a denomination that is often characterized by conservative evangelicals as liberal.

    Eric Metaxas, a well-known writer among conservative evangelicals, is also an Episcopalian. He's was also a Trump supporter.

    The idea that we are all politically liberal just isn't true. We are far more diverse than conservative evangelicals, who tend to vote overwhelmingly Republican.
     
  6. FireDragon76

    FireDragon76 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    It goes back to the early 20th century Fundamentalist movement defining itself polemically against all sorts of things. It's part of the evangelical identity now in some ways, taking a stand for Jesus means being against something.
     
  7. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    Spot on.
     
  8. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    ^_^

    Good for you.
     
  9. PeaceByJesus

    PeaceByJesus Unworthy servant for the Worthy Lord + Savior

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    More like the very idea of "scriptural doctrine"is repulsive?
     
  10. PeaceByJesus

    PeaceByJesus Unworthy servant for the Worthy Lord + Savior

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    I was referring not "liberal religionists" being politically one, not that entire denoms are, though some overall lean heavily to port or starboard.

    [​IMG]
    - U.S. religious groups and their political leanings

    [​IMG] - http://assets.pewresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/12/2014/04/FT_republicans-morality.png

    Also,

    The share of mainline Protestants fell from 18% in 2007 to 15% of U.S. adults in 2014. By comparison, declines among evangelical Protestants have been more modest (26% in 2007 to 25% in 2014). This downward trend is part of a broader decline in the share of Christians in the U.S., from 78% of adults in 2007 to 71% in 2014. Net losses for Christians have meant net gains for religiously unaffiliated adults, who in 2014 accounted for 23% of the adult population, up from 16% in 2007.

    Protestants across Latin America also are significantly more religious than Catholics. And they are more likely to take conservative positions on issues such as divorce, abortion, gay marriage and gender norms. - 500 years after the Reformation, 5 facts about Protestants around the world
     
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  11. FireDragon76

    FireDragon76 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    As Hedrick has pointed out elsewhere, "Holy living" as moral purity was not that important to Jesus' ministry. Some Christians read too much Paul, and not enough Jesus. Paul gives pastoral guidance, mystical vision (theoria), and theology, but he really shouldn't shape our character and ethics as much as Jesus' teachings.
     
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  12. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    The APOSTLE PAUL, messenger of YHWH, delivered YHWH'S BREATHED WORD, as taught by YESHUA(JESUS),
    completely and perfectly as YHWH desired.

    People opposed to YHWH'S WORD, often find conflict with the holiness YHWH demands in HIS WORD,
    and seek sometimes to blame Paul or other men or other reasons in order to go on sinning, not desiring the LIGHT because (as it is written) their deeds are evil.(dark).
     
  13. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    I like @hedrick but perhaps he should opine on how you are invoking him.

    Now not so important to Jesus?

    He confirmed marriage between one man and one woman and confirmed God's hatred for divorce (Matthew 19:1-10).

    Which addresses all sexual sin outside of that bond.

    He confirmed the moral law in Matthew 5 by saying:

    He therefore that shall break one of these least commandments, and shall so teach men, shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven. But he that shall do and teach, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.(Matthew 5:19)

    “They that are in health have no need of a physician; but they that are sick. I am not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance” (Luke 5:31-32).

    The very fact Jesus led a sinless life should be important to us. We should also look at the lives of His apostles and what they taught, that although human as we are taught us to live holy lives. We can't perfectly but that should not give us license to sanctify sin weighing us down or ignore it.
     
  14. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    Last I checked they proclaimed a very simple list the 5 fundamentals. Thus Fundamentalists.

    I've corrected this error in the past but you persist.
     
  15. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    Doesn't everyone immersed in Jesus Name, all the followers of Jesus, DO what He Says to DO, Stand for Truth that He Says to Stand for, and Stand against what He says to Stand Against?

    Jesus knows everything, and is right about everything, right ?
     
  16. PeaceByJesus

    PeaceByJesus Unworthy servant for the Worthy Lord + Savior

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    And as I have more than pointed out, both are wrong. The idea that moral purity (excluding ritual purity) was not that important to Jesus' ministry is absurd, seeing that He taught that,

    And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. (Matthew 19:17-19)

    Jesus saith unto her, Go, call thy husband, and come hither. The woman answered and said, I have no husband. Jesus said unto her, Thou hast well said, I have no husband: For thou hast had five husbands; and he whom thou now hast is not thy husband: in that saidst thou truly. (John 4:16-18)

    "For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: All these evil things come from within, and defile the man. (Mark 7:21-23)

    The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend [which word is used by Him in reference to fornication in Revelation 2:14], and them which do iniquity [transgression of the law in 1 John 3:4]. (Matthew 13:41)

    And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: (Mark 9:47)

    But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery. (Matthew 5:32)

    And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder. (Matthew 19:4-6)

    When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee? She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more. (John 8:10-11)

    Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess. (Matthew 23:25)


    Thus the Lord both in affirmation and in condemnation emphasized moral purity, while also much countering the merely outward but heartless and inward wickedness of the religious leaders overall of his day.
    Which is also absurd, and nigh unto heresy! The gospel are far far from sufficient as revelation, containing words and deed of Christ (much of which is repeated in the synoptics) but lacking in the explanatory interpretive and expanded theology and moral teaching of the epistles, and application therein and in Acts, and this need for further revelation the Lord foretold He would provide. ("many things to say unto you.." John 16:12)

    It was the Spirit of Christ who inspired the writing of the gospels, in which not all the words of Christ (as well as some others) can be verbatim (as duplicate accounts show), and which the Spirit of Christ could expand or contract, or recast.

    And it was this same Spirit of Christ who inspired Paul and the other writers, using their distinctive personalities yet writing what the Lord wanted, like a wind orchestra, each with a distinctive sound, yet playing in complementary harmony under the direction of the Great Conductor, whose breath they play by. Glory to God.

    Yet the words of Christ can convey a greater power, reflective of the person.

    Left to the gospels you have much that requires interpretation and and no revelation as to how the NT church understood the gospels , and very little ecclesiology, the nature of the new covenant, and the place of the Gentles, and only a basic understanding of justification, predestination, etc. and very limited eschatology.

    Thus while some Christians are not reading enough Jesus versus Paul, the latter does more than just give pastoral guidance and mystical vision, and Catholics and liberals, if anything, manifest they rely on the gospels over Paul, since the former can be abused more by them, versus the explanatory Acts and letters to the churches.

    You and Hendrick's appeal to Christ supposedly not treating moral purity as important is just one example, though blown out of the water by the grace of God.
     
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2017
  17. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    Also seems to be the approach of the post modern emergent church. Which started in the late 20th century and has crept in to every corner of Christianity.

    What is the emerging / emergent church movement?

    What is the Emerging Church? | CARM.org

    Here's just some characteristics:

    • We have no foundation for any beliefs, therefore we cannot know absolute truth
      Critics of the Emerging Church movement insist that emergents misrepresent epistemological foundationalism (the belief that we do possess some knowledge that serves as a basis for further knowledge) as requiring “bombproof certainty,” something contemporary foundationalists insist they do not hold to. What contemporary foundationalists do believe is that we can possess real knowledge that is so certain it requires extraordinary evidence to refute it. [13] D. A. Carson points out that emergent postfoundationalism is based upon yet another of their false antitheses, saying “In effect the antithesis demands that we be God, with all of God’s omniscience, or else forever be condemned to knowing nothing objective for sure.” [14] Additionally, emergents fail to consider the scriptural teaching of faith as something God-given which does possess supernaturally certain knowledge (Mt 21:21, Eph. 2:8, Heb 11:1). Emergents do not seem to realize that critiquing secular foundationalism is not the same as critiquing Evangelical foundationalism. In A New Kind of Christian McLaren’s fictional altar ego, Neo, says even Scripture is neither authoritative (in a “modern” sense) [15] nor a foundation for faith. [16]
    • Since we cannot know absolute truth, we can only experience what is “true” for our communities
      Postmodern philosophers and theologians insist that truth is only known and validated within communities (“There are no Metanarratives only local narratives”). While this implies that truth is culturally relative and that true cross-cultural communication is impossible (those outside a community must first join a community before they can understand the community’s ideas), postmodern authors communicate to people of various communities simultaneously, apparently expecting them to all equally understand their intent.
    • Since we cannot know absolute truth we cannot be dogmatic about doctrine
      Emergents see orthodoxy as “generous,” [17] that is, inclusive of many beliefs Christians have historically thought of as aberrant or heretical. Many leading emergents echo McLaren’s refusal to assert Christianity’s superiority to other world religions.
    • Since we cannot know absolute truth we cannot be dogmatic about moral standards
      Absolute stands on issues such as homosexuality are viewed as obsolete. Activities such as drinking, clubbing, watching sexually explicit movies, and using profanities are seen by some emergents as opportunities to show those who are not part of the Christian community that postmodern Christians do not think they are better than them through any false sense of moral superiority. [18]
    • Since we cannot know absolute truth, dogmatic preaching must give way to a dialogue between people of all beliefs
      Emerging Christians do not posture themselves before the world as though they were the light and the world were in darkness. Instead of “preaching” to the “lost” they join in “conversation,” with people of various beliefs. Conservative Evangelicals seem not to be truly welcome to contribute their distinctive content to this conversation since they represent the old, rotting corpse of “modernism.”
    • Since propositional truth is uncertain, spiritual feeling and social action make up the only reliable substance of Christianity
      Emergents consider propositional truth a “modern” (and thus outmoded) fascination. Postmoderns think and communicate in narratives. [19] Since the pursuit of truth is portrayed as a never ending journey with no solid starting point, they consider the only legitimate measuring rods of Christianity to be experience and good works. Without a solid footing in revealed truth, however, emergents have no firm foundation for knowing which experiences are valid and which works are good (something they do not seem to notice).
    • To capture a sacred feeling we should reconnect with ancient worship forms
      Trappings such as burning candles and events such as silent retreats are popular in the movement. Embracing these premodern forms further breaks their connection with “modern” Christianity.
    • Since sublime feeling is experienced through outward forms, we should utilize art forms in our worship
      Many participants in the movement see appreciating art for art’s sake as a spiritual experience.
    • Through conversation with them, “outsiders” will become part of our community, and then be able to understand and believe what we teach
      The postmodern approach is not to try to persuade people to believe, it is to try to befriend people into joining. This is commonly expressed as Robert Webber does when he says “People in a postmodern world are not persuaded to faith by reason as much as they are moved to faith by participation in God’s earthly community.” [20] There is a false antithesis in such statements, however. We do not have to choose between a purely cerebral attempt to talk others into believing correctly on the one hand and offering an open, unqualified invitation to our group on the other. The Bible teaches us to proclaim the gospel message with reliance upon the Holy Spirit to empower, illuminate, and convict (1 Co 2, 1 Thess 1:9). When such proclamation is absent, as it is in the Emerging Church movement, there is no prophetic voice coming from the church calling sinners to repent and believe the Gospel (Ac 2:38, 16:30-32).
    More: Emerging Church - Distinctive Teachings and Goals | Apologetics Index
     
  18. Tom Farebrother

    Tom Farebrother Optimistic sceptic Supporter

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    That said Marines need actual instruction and training in order to be Marines. Preparation for Godly living and spiritual development is sorely lacking in fundamentalist type churches, in my experience anyway.
     
  19. Tom Farebrother

    Tom Farebrother Optimistic sceptic Supporter

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    What is the specific sense of ‘moral purity’ here, and in the other posts you’re replying too? Thanks
     
  20. GingerBeer

    GingerBeer Cool and refreshing with a kick!

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    The way it is explained is repulsive. Maybe the people explaining it have made it so.
     
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