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Discussion in 'General Theology' started by FireDragon76, Dec 19, 2017.

  1. FireDragon76

    FireDragon76 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Conservative evangelicals often confuse acceptance and affirmation. I agree that a church is not bound to affirm adulterers in their adultery, but if we want an adultery free church, we are going to have to cast out everybody who has ever looked at somebody else lustfully. I think that will make for a very empty church.
     
  2. FireDragon76

    FireDragon76 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I think somebody like St. Francis is a better example of zealous piety. He aimed for purity in himself but he took the blame for the failings of others and he was reluctant to act harshly towards those who failed. His lifestyle of holiness was more attractional than judgmental.

    This is very much at odds with how many conservative evangelicals think of piety.

    Indeed, attractional piety has alot in common with how we Lutherans understand the Third Use of the Law. That God's Laws are suggestions, not condemnations, to those who have faith.
     
  3. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    Matthew 18:15-18 should be instructive.

    I clearly outlined those who seek the Lord to address their sin, as opposed to those who don't.
     
  4. FireDragon76

    FireDragon76 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Jesus is talking about interpersonal sins that effect the good order of the Church, like one person sinning against another in their actions. He's not talking about upholding a particular code of purity per se.

    Of course Paul is right that the Church has the authority to bind and to loose sins, and to even excommunicate those who are egregious sinners. But we should be focused on good order in doing so, and not personal purity. The kinds of behaviors Paul favored excommunication for, were not ordinary sexual sins, but ones that even pagans recognized as highly dishonorable.
     
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2017
  5. PeaceByJesus

    PeaceByJesus Unworthy servant for the Worthy Lord + Savior

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    That is evidently a continuing problem, which should not be.
    Indeed, except that we need mercy in the light of justice, the consequence of sin, which is first, thus Christ sent His Spirit to "reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment," (John 16:8) and which He often uses men as instruments of, as seen the preaching of Peter and Paul, resulting in the cry, "men, and brethren, what shall we do? (Acts 2:37) The rest was easy.

    and indeed the sinner (us) needs to look to Him and see ourselves in Him by faith if we are going to overcome

    No, that's Bible theology, and it is not to be sin-management, but how to walk in the Spiirt versus the flesh.
    Which is a false hope. Ir is the faith which baptism requires and expresses that purifies the heart, (Acts 15:9) and is counted for righteousness, thus souls realized the "washing of regeneration" before baptism in Acts 10, while because baptism equal faith in that one who believes confesses the Lord, and is thus basically a 'sinner's prayer" in body language, then the promise is made of the Holy Spirit to convicted souls if they will be baptized.
    Where did I demand practical perfectionism in order to be a real Christian? That's what Catholicism requires to enter Heaven. But to be as Christ in character is to be the goal of the Godly. (Phil. 3:7-21)
    And where did i marginalize being gracious to others, merciful, or a self-focused kind of religion, versus focusing on Christ, while seeking to be like Christ also means seeking to be pure, as He is pure.

    Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. (1 John 3:2)

    Is not that goal what you militate against?
    Where am i using personal piety to attack at the heart of our faith, that we are sinners who can be confident in God's grace, except that being justified by faith in "Jesus Christ the Righteous" means having a faith which effects obedience, and includes seeking moral purity as well as having compassion on sinners, which we all are.

    And is also means holding all the words of Christ as equally authoritative, not limiting this to be gospels.

    Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life. And of some have compassion, making a difference: And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh. Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen. (Jude 21-25)
     
  6. PeaceByJesus

    PeaceByJesus Unworthy servant for the Worthy Lord + Savior

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    What?! Jesus telling her about drinking the living water and then pointing out the women's major sin and in detail when she asks where to get it, and this means He is trying to validate her as human being capable of worship, rather than above all showing her what she is looking for and needs, but what she needs to repented of to attain it? You do not think above all that the Lord was calling her to repent and receive the living water?

    It seems you have subscribed to some specious liberal ethos which marginalizes the wickedness of moral sin, which Christ upheld, including actions. As shown.
    More nonsense. I am reading it as written in Scripture not imposing liberal sin-minimizing tripe onto the text.
    What?! Justify my works-righteousness?! Where did I ever say justification was thru works, rather than by faith which effects works,but which fruit includes seeking moral purity? Why is the latter apparently so repulsive to you that you must attack and misrepresent what i say in order to do it? Or at least fail to comprehend it?
    Dude, the lady has had 5 (count them) husbands, and is presently living with one who is not even her husband, and evidences no shame in conversing with Christ, but is quite bold, and which is further evidenced in her boldly telling men in her city about Christ, to "Come, see a man, which told me all things that ever I did: is not this the Christ?" (John 4:29)

    There is nothing here that evidences some embarrassed women who feels shame, nor is there anything about coming to the well alone that indicates this, which is hardly abnormal. (Proverbs 31:1-31; Acts 16:13,14) But regardless it seems you must insist on making this about self-esteem due to liberal animus about pointing out moral sins, such as Christ did.

    But which faith is only real and salvific if it is the kind which effects obedience thru the Spirit, and which includes by obeying the moral law regarding actions and carnal lusts, envy, etc., as well as proactively seeking the benefit of other according to the word of God, most importantly but not always most
    Which is nonsense regardless of what your comrade may have said, for what i said about faith only being real and salvific if it is the kind which effects obedience thru the Spirit, is entirely Biblical, as has been and can be shown, while the marginalization of "obeying the moral law regarding actions and carnal lusts, envy, etc.," is not Scriptural.

    And that i am guilty of a definition which presents "an impossible standard that you carelessly judge others by" - while i use the words "seek" and admit i fall short in Godliness - is another lie. But since lying is likely also one of the things that is marginalized as opposed to your self-proclaimed emphasis on showing mercy and compassion, then i suppose it need not both you guys much.

    Resting in Christ for salvation while laboring to serve him are not mutually contradictory.

    Just where do you come up with these things? Is there another poster using my name who invisibly posts things you falsely charge me with? The context was your statement about Christ giving rest as being opposed to what you see me doing.

    I am sure there are some Lutherans who serve Christ and many who don't. To varying degrees that is true of other churches. But it is the liberal ethos and its attack on "obeying the moral law regarding actions and carnal lusts, envy, etc., as well as proactively seeking the benefit of other according to the word of God' that is the problem.
    But its obvious that you consider it your place to negatively judge me, even as "You would pile burdens upon the weak.." Even by saying that "everybody I met at my church seems to be serving Christ in one way or another" is judging also. For in fact whenever you made an appraisal of what others are doing you are judging them by whatever standard you hold to as defining that.

    And which is not necessarily wrong in itself, and Christ did so and commanded it, righteously, (Jn. 7:24) objectively, not as prideful, censorious, hypocritical, but judging ourselves first, and dealing with what we seek to correct in others so we can then correct them. Mt. 7:1-5)

    Its too late to add more.
     
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2017
  7. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    QUOTE="FireDragon76, post: 72131765, member: 330042"]Of course Paul is right that the Church has the authority to bind and to loose sins,
    and to even excommunicate those who are egregious sinners.[/QUOTE
     
  8. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    YHWH , His Word, Torah, Jesus, NEVER made suggestions, ever. Those who have faith repent, so they are not condemned. Those destined for eternal judgment are already condemned.
     
  9. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    First, objectively we know God's revelation by what He revealed to us in writing . Such is available to all souls to examine and see how souls responded to God's Truth throughout history and by His covenants.

    However, while we were yet sinners Christ died for us demonstrating His Love for us.

    This is the revelation of God's Love in the Person of Jesus Christ.
     
  10. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    I know the posts of @PeaceByJesus. He is the last person to accuse of holiness theology unless you meant Christ is Holy.

    This is my impression of his posts:

    That we are damned destitute sinners who can bring no works to a Holy God which will earn us anything. But recognizing as destitute out hope is only in Christ Jesus as Savior and our due obedience to Him as Lord of our lives.

    As a bleeding heart teacher of young children I tell them the story of a dog named Penny. She was abused and not a fit for two families. The second family made an appointment to deliver the dog to the pound and certain death. A wonderful woman interceded on behalf of the dog knowing she had serious obedience issues. She offered to unconditionally take in the dog.

    That dog is now sitting at my feet by the unmerited grace of my wife. Penny strived and continues to strive within her capacity to please us given the unmerited love and grace we extended to her. She is loyal, loving and has become the protector of our elderly Yellow Lab and entire family.

    What @PeaceByJesus and I and a few others have pointed out, such Grace and Love Christ has demonstrated to us deserves a loving response, loyalty and Love in response. It is is the same reciprocal love offered in creation to Adam and Eve and made manifest by the life and testimony of Christ. This is obedience to His will and not our own.
     
  11. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    Jesus Praised His Father for REVEALING SALVATION to infants, and HIDING it from the educated.
    For REVEALING SCRIPTURE to "few", while many remain in darkness and never find the narrow road to life (because of unbelief).
    Revelation from YHWH is not available to all souls, just as the authority to heal others and to cast out demons is not available either to all souls, no , not many ever.
    Yachanan the immerser proclaimed that "no man" can receive anything (like understanding, revelation, knowledge, wisdom, etc) UNLESS
    the Father in heaven grants it.
    Even the APOSTLES did not understand JESUS IS MESSIAH, although they had the best SCRIPTURES,
    UNTIL THE FATHER revealed this to them. (NOT by flesh, nor by power, nor by strength, but by
    YHWH'S SPIRIT [to man's spirit, REVEALED / GRANTED by YHWH)....
    yes, even to little ones who cannot yet read; (YHWH reveals to them, as JESUS SAYS),
    and NOT to grown ones who can and do read, yet do not believe nor trust nor obey.(it is hidden from them).
    Revelation of TRUTH, not known to the world[unregenerated], ever.
     
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2017
  12. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    St Francis is an example of one who obediently walked with Christ knowing his own weaknesses and fallen state. His works and life's account was a 10th grade assignment in Catholic school. His compassion for the leper moved me as I read that he not only provided for him but kissed him. Such great faith.

    There is much said of walking in the shoes of another. That I would consider where we must shoulder each other's burdens (Galatians 6:2). Sharing our burdens is not accepting one's sins but providing the strength, support and accountability of a fellow brother or sister in Christ with our eyes fixed on pleasing Him.



    Not so. We discuss and debate issues here on CF. The reality of walking in the love of Christ is demonstrated in word and deed in our personal day to day interactions with the brethren.

    When one takes the position that Jesus is not concerned on how we lead our personal lives, such demands a response. We are to present the truth in love which means sometimes such love is tough for some to accept.

    In order for the church to share the burdens of others, we must confess such are burdens in need of labor. Not ignore such or sweep it under the carpet. Love is very tough at times. Standing here knowing such is true.

    Not fully understanding secondary or third uses of Law. The Law reveals God's Holiness therefore our failures and shortcomings. As Paul says the Law is our tutor and reveals our wicked ways in opposition to God's Holiness.

    Yet the Love of the Father was to offer His Only Son Jesus Christ to be the Perfection and Author of our salvation. Such should lead souls to proclaim "let us abide in Him boldly."
     
  13. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    He wasn't necessarily obedient or faithful. Note particularly that some people use his so-called example as a way to justify sin and rebellion instead of truth and faithfulness, and instead of doing what Jesus Says to DO (i.e. turn to YHWH, "repent", "stop sinning", YHWH'S KINGDOM is at hand - seek YHWH'S KINGDOM instead of anything else, and instead of remaining under the prince of the power of the air (EPHESIANS 2) .
     
  14. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    The theme of "purity code" is something you and some others are attempting to tie to the discussion to distract from what is already commanded and expected of disciples of Christ. I'm sure you know the Jewish tradition of disciples. They preached what their masters taught and committed their lives to how their master lived. That is the NT reality of discipleship as well.

    That is not purity for purity sake but doing--acting as we believe. The sobering fact is we sometimes love something else more than we love Christ. We can either ignore such sin or even make arguments why it is not sin, but all we do is fool ourselves. We should know as Christians all we are doing is fooling ourselves and allowing strong delusion to map out our path.




    What is important to note is the theme of personal purity has nothing to do with this discussion. No one has advocated personal purity here but the purity of Jesus Christ and our do diligence in living our lives as His disciples. A disciple will eagerly emulate his or her master.

    This should clarify what I am presenting to you:


    Am I saying "I am redleghunter and you should be following my example as I am following Christ?"

    No, what I am saying is "we should be disciples of Christ."
     
  15. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    The Gospel is available to all, in writing, to examine.

    Whether they do so is another matter . The difference in the soils.
     
  16. FireDragon76

    FireDragon76 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    We don't preach that a person's acceptance by God is conditioned on their ability to respond to him in any particular manner. That's why we baptize all sorts of people that many other Christians do not, including the mentally disabled, babies, and those in vegetative states. We consider the grace of baptism a gift with "no strings attached". Sure, it's fitting that we love God in response, but that love is not necessary for our justification.

    We don't consider what you wrote above to be all that clear a message. We want a clear proclamation by distinguishing Law and Gospel. "Love me" is not really a loving message in the same way as saying "I love you" is. "Love me" is a command, and like all commands, it carries potential condemnation, whereas "I love you" does not.
     
  17. FireDragon76

    FireDragon76 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The Second Use of the Law is the use of the Law for sinners that shows us our need for God's grace.

    The Third Use of the Law is for Christians, it shows us suggestions for how to live that is pleasing to God.

    We handle the Third Use differently than Calvinists do. Calvinists have a tendency to make the Third Use the primary use, whereas we see the Second Use as primary.

    Some theologians such as Gerhard Forde insist that the Third Use is just the Second Use. This is especially true when you consider the complexity of human psychology, that were are not merely "Christian" or "non-Christian", but both Old Adam and New Adam live in us.
     
  18. FireDragon76

    FireDragon76 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    He never tells her she needs to repent. He does tell her he has what she needs. But I don't see that as condemnation of her as a person, nor is he particularly judgmental of the way she lives. He doesn't say "Go away and come back when you clean your life up".
     
  19. FireDragon76

    FireDragon76 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Two articles on the Samaritan woman at the well, and the potential to misunderstand this story through a moralistic misreading of the text :

    Rethinking the Samaritan Woman | Valid Ambiguity

    Misogyny, Moralism and the Woman at the Well | HuffPost

    Not every encounter of Jesus in the Bible is a morality lesson or an evangelical style conversion narrative of guilt and grace. Some stories are much more subtle than Jesus going around laying down Law on every hapless sinner in his path. This story is one such example.
     
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2017
  20. hedrick

    hedrick Senior Veteran Supporter

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    The talk of the woman's husband and non-husband seems to be there primarily to demonstrate Jesus' knowledge. It brings her to understand who he truly is. There's no sign of Jesus reacting to the morality of the situation. She ends up becoming an evangelist, but there's no indication or repentance or marrying her man.

    I'm not big on reading traditional commentaries, so until I looked at the articles in the previous post I didn't realize that she has often been regarded as an adultress. There's no sign of that. The obvious understanding is that she has had a really tragic past. Her most serious sin would be living with someone without marriage. But as pointed out in one of the articles, what she says is consistent with several perfectly legitimate options.
     
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