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Discussion in 'General Theology' started by FireDragon76, Dec 19, 2017.

  1. FireDragon76

    FireDragon76 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    That could be, but it's entirely possible she is living with a male who is kin in a patrilocal manner, but there is no sexual relationship, which would not make her guilty of any particular sin. She may in fact be the victim of a failed marriage, or a widow. Either way, she is low on the social ladder in her society. That is what Jesus is addressing, her low status.

    As you said, it's about a woman who is a victim of tragedy and Jesus offers her something better than yet another man who will let her down, for whatever reason. It is a story about restored dignity.

    It doesn't surprise me that Augustine moralizes the story in a sexual manner. Augustine does this alot, probably because he struggled with a healthy understanding of sexuality in general, as well as a great deal of misogyny (as did many men in the Greco-Roman world). But other church fathers do not. In the Orthodox church, the woman at the well is recognized as an evangelist, an enlightener to her people, and is consquently named Photini or Svetlana, pertaining to her enlightenment (my uncle's mother's name was actually Photini, which means she was named after this particular saint). She is honored, not shamed.

    From a Lutheran perspective, the traditional evangelical preaching of this story is all about Law, and very little Gospel. That makes it spiritually manipulative in a way that really should not be acceptable, where we dish out the guilt and shame heavily on women that don't measure up to our standards of what a good woman is. It's the sort of religion I talked about earlier, which instills guilt and shame into people, when it reality the Gospel should set us free.
     
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2017
  2. PeaceByJesus

    PeaceByJesus Unworthy servant for the Worthy Lord + Savior

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    So He would disagree with such texts as provided below, such as

    Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God. (2 Corinthians 7:1)

    Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure. (1 John 3:2-3)?

    What Bible are you reading? The only sin that Paul said that even pagans recognized as highly dishonorable - actually it said it was not even found among the pagans - was that of an incestuous relationship with one's own mother. However the rest were standard sexual and non-sexual sins, as shown you before:

    But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat. For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person. (1 Corinthians 5:11-13)

    Likewise please read the following also from every letter to the churches in their order, which i have not posted since i mainly wanted to respond according to your spurious red-letter dichotomy. And yet which are not all of the many texts that focus in moral purity, and are interpretive of how the NT understood the gospels.

    And which testify that being a follower of Christ means seeking to be like Him in all areas, to be and live consistent with what the believer is positionally, and will be in the resurrection when He is finally made as conformable to Christ as He can, and not majoring on such social aspects as helping the needy while marginalizing personal purity in heart and deed.

    However, they are different degrees of wickedness. It would be better to be a charitable, kind-hearted, hard-working faithful husband but who had problems with the bottle than a teetotaler with a vindictive malicious calculating heart, but seeking conformity to Christ means seeking to be as much like Him in this life as we can (and how far I fall short!) and He clearly lived a life both of mercy and charity as well as moral purity in flesh and spirit and calls His owmn to the same.

    After this section there are some questions.


    Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. (Romans 8:12-13)


    Let love be without dissimulation. Abhor that which is evil; cleave to that which is good. Be kindly affectioned one to another with brotherly love; in honour preferring one another; (Romans 12:9-10)

    Not slothful in business; fervent in spirit; serving the Lord; Rejoicing in hope; patient in tribulation; continuing instant in prayer; Distributing to the necessity of saints; given to hospitality. Bless them which persecute you: bless, and curse not. (Romans 12:11-14)

    Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God. (2 Corinthians 7:1)

    Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up, Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil; Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth; (1 Corinthians 13:4-6)

    For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again. (2 Corinthians 5:14-15)

    Moreover, brethren, we do you to wit of the grace of God bestowed on the churches of Macedonia; How that in a great trial of affliction the abundance of their joy and their deep poverty abounded unto the riches of their liberality. For to their power, I bear record, yea, and beyond their power they were willing of themselves; Praying us with much intreaty that we would receive the gift, and take upon us the fellowship of the ministering to the saints. (2 Corinthians 8:1-4)

    And lest, when I come again, my God will humble me among you, and that I shall bewail many which have sinned already, and have not repented of the uncleanness and fornication and lasciviousness which they have committed. (2 Corinthians 12:21)

    As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith. (Galatians 6:10)

    Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. (Galatians 5:19-21)

    But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another. (Galatians 5:22-26)

    Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children; And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour. But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. (Ephesians 5:1-4)

    For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. (Ephesians 5:5)

    And this I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in knowledge and in all judgment; That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ; (Philippians 1:9-10)

    That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead. Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. (Philippians 3:10-12)

    (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.) For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself. (Philippians 3:18-21)

    Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory. Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry: For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience: In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them. But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth. Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds; And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him: (Colossians 3:2-10)

    Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering; Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye. And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness. (Colossians 3:12-14)

    For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication: That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour; Not in the lust of concupiscence, even as the Gentiles which know not God: That no man go beyond and defraud his brother in any matter: because that the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified. (1 Thessalonians 4:3-6)

    But as touching brotherly love ye need not that I write unto you: for ye yourselves are taught of God to love one another. And indeed ye do it toward all the brethren which are in all Macedonia: but we beseech you, brethren, that ye increase more and more; And that ye study to be quiet, and to do your own business, and to work with your own hands, as we commanded you; That ye may walk honestly toward them that are without, and that ye may have lack of nothing. (1 Thessalonians 4:9-12)

    Abstain from all appearance of evil. And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it. (1 Thessalonians 5:22-24)

    But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: (2 Thessalonians 2:13)

    Let no man despise thy youth; but be thou an example of the believers, in word, in conversation, in charity, in spirit, in faith, in purity. (1 Timothy 4:12)

    Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee. (1 Timothy 4:16)

    Rebuke not an elder, but intreat him as a father; and the younger men as brethren; The elder women as mothers; the younger as sisters, with all purity. (1 Timothy 5:1-2)

    But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel. (1 Timothy 5:8)

    Lay hands suddenly on no man, neither be partaker of other men's sins: keep thyself pure. (1 Timothy 5:22)

    If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; (1 Timothy 6:3)

    But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness. (1 Timothy 6:11)

    Charge them that are rich in this world, that they be not highminded, nor trust in uncertain riches, but in the living God, who giveth us richly all things to enjoy; That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate; Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life. (1 Timothy 6:17-19)

    But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work. Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart. (2 Timothy 2:20-22)

    One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies. This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith; (Titus 1:12-13)

    A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject; (Titus 3:10)

    For we have great joy and consolation in thy love, because the bowels of the saints are refreshed by thee, brother. (Philemon 7)

    Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord: Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled; Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright. (Hebrews 12:14-16)

    Remember them that are in bonds, as bound with them; and them which suffer adversity, as being yourselves also in the body. (Hebrews 13:3)

    Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge. (Hebrews 13:4)

    By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of our lips giving thanks to his name. But to do good and to communicate forget not: for with such sacrifices God is well pleased. (Hebrews 13:15-16)

    Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen. (Hebrews 13:20-21)

    Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded. Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness. Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up. (James 4:7-10)

    Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: (1 Peter 1:22)

    Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin; That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God. (1 Peter 4:1-2)

    But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you. (1 Peter 5:10)

    Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. (2 Peter 1:4-7) Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: (2 Peter 1:10)

    Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, (2 Peter 3:11)

    But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. (1 John 1:7-9)

    He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked. (1 John 2:6)

    Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. (1 John 2:15-16)

    Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure. (1 John 3:2-3)

    Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. (1 John 3:4-5)

    He that committeth [continuous, impenitently] sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. (1 John 3:8)

    Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you. We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death. (1 John 3:13-14)

    Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren. (1 John 3:16)

    I rejoiced greatly that I found of thy children walking in truth, as we have received a commandment from the Father. (2 John 4) Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. (2 John 9)

    Beloved, thou doest faithfully whatsoever thou doest to the brethren, and to strangers; Which have borne witness of thy charity before the church: whom if thou bring forward on their journey after a godly sort, thou shalt do well: Because that for his name's sake they went forth, taking nothing of the Gentiles. We therefore ought to receive such, that we might be fellowhelpers to the truth. (3 John 5-8)

    These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit. But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost, Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life. And of some have compassion, making a difference: And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh. Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen. (Jude 19-25)

    I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first. Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols. (Revelation 2:19-20)

    And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life. (Revelation 21:27)

    Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. (Revelation 22:14-15)

    Questions:
    Do you think Christ was anything less in the holiness exhorted here?
    Do you think the gospels are sufficient to understand what all God wants Christians to be?
    Do you consider the above texts to be the word of God, as is the status of the gospels?
    Do you see the condemning of sins of the flesh, and an emphasis upon person purity, as in abstaining from such things as sexual immorality, as well as doing good unto all, esp. the brethren?
     
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2017
  3. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    That doesn't change that revelation* is not available to all souls (only to few).
    *[YHWH'S revelation]

    Even 'their'* prayers are not heard ...

    *those who YHWH says He does not listen to their prayers.
    (anyone who considers sin in their heart) (as written in YHWH'S WORD).
    So many people continue approving of sin, and so their prayers are not heard; their lives are out of order, not abiding in Christ, (as written in YHWH'S WORD).
     
  4. PeaceByJesus

    PeaceByJesus Unworthy servant for the Worthy Lord + Savior

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    Which is just more liberal eisegesis, going overboard to postulate that a women who has had 5 husbands is is living with a man out of marriage may be be a chaste widow, rather the Lord pointing out her sin, which is anathema to snowflake liberals!

    Notice that the Lord is the one pointing out her sin and in detail in response to her asking for this water:

    The woman saith unto him, Sir, give me this water, that I thirst not, neither come hither to draw. Jesus saith unto her, Go, call thy husband, and come hither. The woman answered and said, I have no husband. Jesus said unto her, Thou hast well said, I have no husband: For thou hast had five husbands; and he whom thou now hast is not thy husband: in that saidst thou truly. (John 4:15-18),

    But which is not what you do if you want to avoid bringing any acknowledgement of guilt, and pointing our a persons sin that keeps them from salvation, and of their need for mercy, and is what the Lord does elsewhere, whether it is telling the rich young ruler he needs to divest himself of his false security, or testing the humble Syrophoenician woman of faith (as an example to the Jews) by reminding her that she has no covenantal claim to God's favor.

    And contrary to liberal ethos, none of this is cruel, nor was strongly chastening souls for their ignorance, or lack of discernment, etc. which the Lord also did.

    And in response the Lord does not say anything like "but that's OK," and get her to talk about this like a non-evangelist liberal counselor, but lets her acknowledge He knows what's going on, and thus to avoid it by changing the subject into the place where men ought to worship. And in response the Lord takes to a higher level, (John 4:21) as usual, while also pointing out to her "Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews." (John 4:22)

    Which is another reminder that is hardly affirming, but is contrasted (as is physical water versus spiritual) by the true worshippers of the Father being not those in a certain location, but anywhere in spirit and in truth. . (John 4:23)

    Which leads to her inquiry about the Messiah as one who would tell them all things, and the Lord's revelation to her that "I that speak unto thee am he."

    She thus boldly tells the men, among whom she no doubt was well know to, not "Come see a man who validated me, not as a sinner but as a worshiper of God just the way I am, as per the liberal version, but "Come, see a man, which told me all things that ever I did: is not this the Christ?" (John 4:29) And that was a lot to know.

    But the only validation her was that the Samaritans - and women - were also candidates for salvation and communion with God.
    What Augustine believes is not determinantive of the meaning.
    Which in liberal-speak likely means that they held to the Biblical distinctions btwn male and female, and the positional/functional distinctions regarding this.
    Which is more liberal tripe. The preaching of the gospel did just what you condemn with your liberal ethos, which is to show sinners there need for salvation in the light of their sins, which is a the breaking of the Law. (1John 3:4)

    For contrary to "another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or another spirit, or another gospel," (2 Corinthians 11:4) the Lord strongly condemned sin and convicted sinners of it, in order to show them their need for salvation, or to judge them, and also criticized His own and others for their spiritual blindness or lack of faith (which i frankly do not think you will read):

    Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. (Matthew 5:19-20)

    Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. (Matthew 7:21-23)

    The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children. Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done, because they repented not: Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you. And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee. (Matthew 11:19-24)

    The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear. (Matthew 13:41-43)

    Woe unto you that are full! for ye shall hunger. Woe unto you that laugh now! for ye shall mourn and weep. (Luke 6:25)

    How is it that ye do not understand that I spake it not to you concerning bread, that ye should beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees? (Matthew 16:11)

    And he said unto them, Why are ye so fearful? how is it that ye have no faith? (Mark 4:40)
    And I brought him to thy disciples, and they could not cure him. Then Jesus answered and said, O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you? bring him hither to me. (Matthew 17:16-17)

    Ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky and of the earth; but how is it that ye do not discern this time? Yea, and why even of yourselves judge ye not what is right? (Luke 12:56-57)

    Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. (Matthew 22:29)

    Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love. (Revelation 2:4)

    But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication. So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate. (Revelation 2:14-15)

    And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works. (Revelation 2:23)

    And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead. Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God. (Revelation 3:1-2)

    And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God; I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth. Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked: (Revelation 3:14-17)
     
  5. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    Now then, pondering........ why does the Lord point out his/her sin to anyone TODAY ? To condemn them, or to encourage them to keep sinning , or for some other reason ?

    Oh, maybe this is truth today also ..... (and needed revelation)

    Concerning any sin:
    "Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love. (Revelation 2:4)

    But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication. So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate. (Revelation 2:14-15) "
     
  6. PeaceByJesus

    PeaceByJesus Unworthy servant for the Worthy Lord + Savior

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    Then you have no warrant for inferring Christians voting for secular leaders meant they saw them as "the captain of their souls." What else is new.
     
  7. FireDragon76

    FireDragon76 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    @PeaceByJesus , I don't see how we can continue a useful discussion if you continue to resort to ad-hominems, epithets, and dismissive posturing. Your behavior is not particular Christ-like here.

    You read the Bible uncritically and you are more than comfortable with misogynistic and moralistic readings of the Scriptures. My church is wary of those, and for good reason. We don't do so to win popularity contests, but because we genuinely care about truth, we realize we are sinful and that religion has been used in the past to hurt real people, and, by the grace of God, we will not continue to do so in Jesus name. If that makes us "liberals" to you, spouting tripe, well, all we can do is shake the dust off our feet and move on. There are other people that we must spend our ill-gotten mammon on, so that we will be welcomed into their eternal dwellings.
     
  8. GingerBeer

    GingerBeer Cool and refreshing with a kick!

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    Sounds right to me.
     
  9. PeaceByJesus

    PeaceByJesus Unworthy servant for the Worthy Lord + Savior

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    More precisely, that saving faith, which purifies the heart (Acts 15:9) and is and is counted for righteousness (Romans 4:5) and accepted in the Beloved (on His account) and positionally seats one together which their Lord in Heaven, (Ephesians 1:6; 26) from where they await the Lord's return and His changing of our "vile body," that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body," (Philippians 3:21) is a faith which effects obedience by the Spirit in word and in deed, in heart and in life, whereby "the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit, (Romans 8:4) insofar as we do.

    But which progressive practical sanctification is not the cause of the sinner's justification and acceptance in Christ, but testifies to such being a believer, evidencing "things which accompany salvation," (Hebrews 6:9) whose faith, as manifested in said obedience, God will recompense (Hebrews 10:35) under grace, even though it is God who motivates and enables all obedience, while the only thing we can and must take credit for it our disobedience.

    The liberal religionists, who seem to reject this goal of Godliness in response to so great salvation at so great a Price, can place whatever pejorative labels on it, but this is what we see in Scripture, as shown and can be shown, thanks be to God, though i come far short.
     
  10. PeaceByJesus

    PeaceByJesus Unworthy servant for the Worthy Lord + Savior

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    Which is (to be consistent) also contrary to Scripture, in which the condition for baptism is only and always wholehearted repentant faith, (Acts 2:38; 8:36,37) which those who are morally incognizant cannot provide or need to.
    So consistent with this, the Lord never condemns anything that those He loves do, or criticizes them?
     
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2017
  11. PeaceByJesus

    PeaceByJesus Unworthy servant for the Worthy Lord + Savior

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    I see. So falsely charging me with reading the Bible uncritically and not being Christ-like and carelessly judging others, and judging me as being more than comfortable with misogynistic (as in 1 Corinthians 11:1-4 I quoted] and moralistic readings of the Scriptures (seeing as I quoted a whole lot of them in support of the importance of morality in heart, word and deed) is not like ad-hominems epithets (calling liberalism what it is), and dismissive posturing (meaning showing why it warrants rejection). While actually you blithely dismiss vast substantiation from Scripture, refuse to answer questions on what they show, and instead come up with this self-righteous means of dismissal .
    If they do say so themselves.
    And as with so many liberal universities today, "used in the past to hurt real people" seems to include some of very types of things the Lord engaged in, in condemning sin, and chastening believers for carnal thinking, criticizing a lack of faith or understanding due to spiritual blindness, while marginalizing the epistles and the importance of personal holiness seen in the NT. Which evidences you read or use Scripture very selectively in order to make it conform to your liberal ethos.
    You can go if you want; no one is holding you here, and you might as well since your liberal argumentation has been exposed quite extensively as specious and unScriptural.
     
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2017
  12. hedrick

    hedrick Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Exegesis by personal attack? Jesus doesn't say she is a sinner. Former husbands would either be men who had died or who divorced her. There's no reason to think that she committed any sin with respect to them. As I understand the culture, women didn't typically live alone. After being either widowed or divorced she would live in someone's household, presumably a relative.

    There are plenty of encounters with Jesus where someone repented. I'm not unwilling to recognize them. But this isn't one of them. As the story goes on, what matters about 4:18 is Jesus' prophetic insight into her situation. Neither Jesus, the woman, nor the others she witnesses to say anything about sin or repentance.

    There's no reason to posit disreputable motivations behind an exegesis that simply takes the text at face value.

    Is it misogynist to assume that a woman is guilty of sexual sin where the text doesn't say so? I haven't made that accusation. The case for misogyny seems clearer with Mary Magdalene.
     
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2017
  13. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    I never made that claim. My post clearly laid out the love and Grace of God comes first.

    What does your baptism signify?

    I never made that claim. You may want to attempt to comprehend what I wrote.


    Again, you did not properly comprehend my posts but want to continue to misrepresent them.
     
  14. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    Seems quite clear. Thanks.
     
  15. FireDragon76

    FireDragon76 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Just to clarify, I don't think you were being misogynist. However, PbJ's reading of the text is very much influenced by a tradition of seeing this woman as especially sinful and in need of repentance.
     
  16. FireDragon76

    FireDragon76 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    We don't think of it primarily in what it signifies but what it does. Putting the sign value of the sacrament ahead of the promise attached to it in importance isn't particularly Lutheran. Baptism is the Gospel applied to us through water. In the sacrament, God claims us and saves us.

    Having said that, Luther does point out in his Smaller Catechism that contrition should be part of the Christian life after baptism. We don't deny this. It's hard not to read or listen to a Lutheran pastor like Nadia Borz Weber and come away with the impression that Lutherans, ever liberal ones, do not believe in reflecting on our actions and to admitting when we are wrong, and that God will from time to time, teach us something new that we have overlooked. Just because our theology, language, and understanding of human psychology has developed since the 16th century doesn't mean we have neglected this.

    We focus on contrition most acutely during Lent, and to a lesser extent, Advent. Just because we don't articulate this part of our spirituality the same ways as other evangelicals, or necessarily give it the same importance, doesn't mean it is absent altogether.
     
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2017
  17. RDKirk

    RDKirk Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner Supporter

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    Where does Paul differ from Jesus?
     
  18. PeaceByJesus

    PeaceByJesus Unworthy servant for the Worthy Lord + Savior

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    Again, the women has asked "Sir, give me this water, that I thirst not, neither come hither to draw," (John 4:15) but instead of telling her this means believing in the Messiah, and giving her some proof of this by revealing He knew something no one else did, the Lord chooses to bring up something that either does not have any guilt associated with it, but is raised because He has shifted into being something of like a grief counselor, or it is related to her quest for this living water.

    And which is her having no less than 5 husbands, and living with one now who is not her husband (and a Hebrew husband could divorce his wife if she was found “familiarly talking with men” - Edersheim 1957, 157). The Lord details this saying "For thou hast had five husbands; and he whom thou now hast is not thy husband," and "he whom thou now hast is not thy husband" being pointed out is hardly noteworthy unless there was something adverse here, and then the Lord adds, "in that saidst thou truly" (John 4:18) which type of language is that of indictment by confession in some places. ( Luke 19:22; 22:17)

    This did reveal that Christ was a prophet, though what He revealed was not a secret in her community, and Lord easily could have revealed something about her that no one knew, but instead He brings up something shameful, and there is nothing in the language or the context that indicates this as being sympathetic, and as being brought out in order to heal her of some hurt, and it is hardly corresponds to her quest for this living water, except, as in some other cases in which people ask the Lord about how to obtain salvation, the response reveals something that will have to be dealt with in order to realize the promise. And I see the details and tone as conveying just that.

    And thus the women deftly deals with this by responding, "Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet" (John 4:19) and beginning a conversation about where the proper place is to worship. And in response, as said, the Lord takes to a higher level, (John 4:21) as usual, while also pointing out to her "Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews." (John 4:22)

    Which is another reminder that is hardly affirming, but is contrasted (as is physical water versus spiritual) by true worshippers of the Father being not those in a certain location, but anywhere in spirit and in truth. (John 4:23)

    Which finally leads to her inquiry about the Messiah as "one will tell us all things," and the Lord's formal statement that He is Him, and her speaking this boldly to the men.
    Obviously, explicit statements are not needed to reveal a persons decisions, including impenitence, as such can be shown implicitly. Nowhere do we read of Nicodemus repenting either, but his action clearly indicates he did. (John 19:39) And such is the case here, for rather than going away sad like the rich young ruler, her belief in the Lord Jesus - which belief itself is an act of repentance and which would result in changes correspondent to faith in the Lord - is manifest in her bold testimony of Christ. Certainly this would result in changes relative to relations with men that were inconsistent with being a follower of Christ, and thus your argument in this fails. The issue then is if there was something about having 5 husbands and currently living with a man that was not one that was sinful.

    Meanwhile, if you are going to demand explicit expressions, then where do we see this interaction being about Lord "validating her as a human being" who can worship God versus validating her as a candidate in need of salvation so she can can worship? It is the liberal aversion to convicting of sin as sinners that I see driving this liberal interpretation.
    Which is just what i am doing, based on the language and interaction, not imposing some speculate
    That recourse this liberal name-calling as the only explanation for opposing views on this is spurious, as is calling everyone who opposes homosexuality "homophobic." While we can use terms broadly based upon typical characteristics, these are often abused.

    I actually admire this women, whom i see as rather spunky with a basically honest heart, and if it were a male who was revealed as having 5 wives and living with a women who "is not thy wife" in a culture in which wives divorced men, then i would still say the Lord is pointing something out that he must intend to deal to be a believer in Him.
    I agree, despite being an alleged misogynist, that the case for Mary Magdalene being a prostitute is weak conjecture at best, and certainly not warranting anything more than speculation simply based on what a women with 7 demons might engage in (without even being in theater or politics). And the popular conception of her as a prostitute flows from the same institution that goes to great lengths to insist Mary the mother of Jesus was a perpetual virgin.

    However, this still does not mean that all those who hold to this are misogynists (men who hate women or are strongly prejudiced against them) as there are other reasons for doing so, such as using it an an example of mercy to notorious sinners.

    Well, that only took about 2 hours for me.
     
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2017
  19. PeaceByJesus

    PeaceByJesus Unworthy servant for the Worthy Lord + Savior

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    We can add that to your judgmental list by a anti-judgmental liberal. My conclusion certainly cannot because that is what i see as most warranted by the text, and thus am able to defend it thereby, and based on this same principle i have come to reject some things my particular evangelical tradition strongly held to.

    And nor do i recall saying this women was especially sinful.

    But it certainly should not be allowed that your reading of the text is very much influenced by a tradition of seeing this woman as not sinful and in need of repentance, but instead apparently as simply being validated as a human being who can worship God.
     
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2017
  20. FireDragon76

    FireDragon76 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Some think that Paul is more moralistic than Jesus. It's certainly possible to read him that way. But it could also be due to Paul's pastoral emphasis, and some people tend to read that advice more rigidly, perhaps, than they ought.
     
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