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Macedonia is Greek !!!!!

Discussion in 'St. Justin Martyr's Corner: Debate an Orthodox Chr' started by Philothei, Apr 2, 2008.

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  1. buzuxi02

    buzuxi02 Veteran

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    The ancient macedonians are hellenes. Thats the whole point, FYROM made up mostly of slavs of bulgarian descent claim they are the original macedonians, and under Tito a few decades ago changed the province name from Vardar-Banovina to what it is now. Non-slavs have always known the area as province of Skupi from the roman empire right thru the ottoman empire to this day.
     
  2. prodromos

    prodromos Senior Veteran Supporter

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    The ancient Macedonians were Hellenes, as were the Spartans, and all the other city states in what is today called Greece.

    Macedonia today describes a geographic region which itself has changed shape and even location over the centuries. Anyone living in that region could and did refer to themselves as Macedonian, but only as a geographic descriptor, their ethnicity being anything from Greek, Serbian, Albanian, Bulgarian to Turkish. The Skopjans (FYROM), by claiming to be 'ethnic' Macedonians, effectively deny any other Macedonians (whether they be Greek, Serbian, Albanian etc.) the right to self identify as such and this is without even going into the false claims to Ancient and Modern Macedonia's history put forward by Skopja.

    All of this began out of Communist Russia's desire for a warm water port. Russia no longer sponsors Skopja, but the lie the people were fed for so many generations has taken on a life of its own. I feel a great deal of pity for the Skopjans. They have lost contact with their true history and origins. If they lose their fabricated 'Macedonian' identity, which they ultimately must, they will have no idea who they are anymore.

    John
     
  3. Michael G

    Michael G Abe Frohmann

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    Thank you for calling me a whiner. I guess I know who my true friends are. Maybe I should feel used now.
     
  4. Michael G

    Michael G Abe Frohmann

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    At this point I guess I should log off TAW. Maybe when you self righteous ethnocentric Orthodox learn that the world does not revolve arround you I will return, until then I have much better things to do with my time. Tscheuss!
     
  5. EricTheRed

    EricTheRed Mercurius

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    ugh
     
  6. Historynut

    Historynut Junior Member

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    Are you certain that the macedonians were Hellenes. The majority of Ancient Greeks disputed this title with Macedonians. Orators like Demosthenes and Thrasymachus would have said that the Macedonias were not Greek.

    Linguistics might imply otherwise as well. Eumenes a Greek used a translator to talk to the Macedonia troops of his phalanx. Language is often but not always an indicator of different ethnicity.

    It is far from a settled issue amongst historians wether or not the macedonians were ethnically greek or not. Now the issue is being muddled by modern politics so much it is getting less and less likely we will ever know for sure.

    But lastly what does ancient ethnicity have to do with anything about this issue. Modern Greeks are no more ethnically related to the Hellenes of Homer, where the name originates by the way, than are the citizens of modern Rome ethnically ancient Romans. Are you really trying to say that after hundereds of years of occupation by the Romans, repeated incursions and settlement of Germanic and slavic tribes in what is modern Greece, and hundereds of years of domination by the Turks that ethnicity did not get altered at all? This is even ignoring the Dorian invasions that supplanted and mixed with the Mycenaeans that Homer called the Hellenes.

    The argument over ethnicity needs to be dropped from Greece's objection to FYROM using the name Macedonia. If FYROM is going to use its name to dispute territory with Greece use that to object to the name thing. Leave ethnicity out of it.
     
  7. Philothei

    Philothei Love never fails

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    Michael, I am sorry that you took it personally but I would call whinner anyone who "whined" about the "ethnic orthodoxy".... I am not refering to only you but to anyone who does goes on and on about how .... bad ethnicity is for Orthodoxy... while they appear "hollier than though" about their own country... Religion is part of our society I happen to disagree this is my opinion. You can accept it or reject it your choice.

    Why should you feel used? In what way I failed you? Sorry I have an opinion... We have a democracy the last time I checked. I am personally tired fo the "ethnicity" issue. We are Orthodox Christians who were born and raised Greek orthodox, Serbian Orthodox, Russian Orthodox, Arab(antinochian Orthdox) etc. All these countries suffered "pursecution" both for being Christian and most had their borders compromised or totally ocupied. This is history that no one can wipe the same way we cannot wipe out the American revolution against the Brits... and the slavery in America. No one can paint a pretty picture for the slavery in America. there are facts... about it. The same way our countries suffered they were occuppied by other faiths their christian people were suffering...The same with the Russians the communist pursecuted christians... The very Orthdoxy you "enjoy" today was brought to you by there nations' hierarchs who had vision and courage to bring it over to the New World. Is it typical though to easily forget and be thankful for what we have? What others have endured to keep their faith? Faith and ethnicity are rightly joined as they were both compromised under the yoke of the enemy... in all countries of orhtodoxy faith. It would be nice just for once if you and other critics could only recognize that and instead of been "sicke and tired" of ethnicity would realize that we too "are sick and tired" or the ingratitude we feel for what our countries offered to world Orthdoxy... I fail to see how all Orthodox Patriarchates whould have survived and "spread satelites" to America if it would not have been for the "individual ethnic effords" of these countries... I am appauled at the small mindness, tunnel vision and overwhelming sentiment that is spread conserning ethnicity and Orthdoxy...

    From a theological perspective I will only say this.. The Gospel is written in Greek, the Fathers wrote in Greek and the Gospel was spread in a Hellenistic environment. No matter how hard we try "not to be Greek" (since association with Greek is so repulsive in this forum...:() it is there ... we cannot reduce it or augment it. The fact that Christ's said in the Gospel that Greeks came "The son of God maybe glorified". Yes, I know many interpretations can be given... but in my opinion whoever had the greek phronema (ethos) was Greek. Not Greek by origin but by ethos, and knowledge. To be a Hellene was not only by origin...


    That my answer also my friend's HistoryNut question that Macedonians were not Greek.... Helene was not only the one who was speaking Greek... but most importantly he who had Greek Paidia. (be greek educated)... So Macedonians were like the Spartans, the Thiveans, the Corinthians etc... they were Helenes with distinct place in Hellas.

    Also I can bring foth DNA testing that testifies to the prof that Macedonian Greeks are different from the Slavic/Macedonian people who reside upon the present time FYROM from respected uniersities in the USA. The Greek population has remained "unmingled" as far its DNA according to "old" relatively studies.

    And please do not tell us what the ancient writers majority tell about our country... This is slanted evidence. You have to read these within the context which is that they were part of the Athenian alliance. As we know there was fight among the different city states and it is "normal" for Athenians to claim superiority as far as their Greekness. Do not try to take advandang of this and "create evidence". We can read history in its original Greek.... What is the matter you do not speak or write Greek??? ha? I thought you were descendants of Alexander????

    Language has lots to do with ethnicity.... You cannot say you want to be called France and fail to speak french.... hahaha that is the lamest of all arguments...
     
  8. Historynut

    Historynut Junior Member

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    I would guess that Micheal is upset because he has encountered a situation where ethnicity trumped chruch affiliation. Hanging on to your culture in a new land and using it in church is not the problem. I love hearing the liturgy in Greek thats not a problem. What is a problem is when you go to a primarily immigrant church and are asked "Are you Greek?" and when you answer no are told you should go to the OCA church arcoss town. This is of course an extrodinary example but did happen to me. In fairness though I have been to over a dozen Greek churches and that is the only time it has happened.

    There is little to no evidence of Hellenization in Macedonia prior to the reign of Archelaus (413-399). Phillip II is the first Macedonian we have any proof of being educated in a Greek City state. Alexander is the first king of whose education we know much about at all. The Macedonians were essentially the first people in history to be hellenized.

    DNA testing that proves what? That modern FYROM is slavic and Greece is not? Who questions this? Unmingled huh? You better not tell that to my Greek girlfriend. She looks much more Turkish than classical greek. Sounds like mingling to me.

    One author I mentioned was Athenian one was from a city not involved in the fight at all Chalcedon. I am not twisting history. You can only read the history in its orignial Greek if you are educated in it, Attic Greek is essentially a different language from modern Greek. Most of my study was in Latin, I did take enough Greek to read Homer and Thucydides in the original.

    Well that was my point exactly. If macedonians were Greeks why did a Greek general need a translator to talk to his Macedonian soldiers? Its not clear wether the macedonians spoke a dialect of Greek or a different language entirely. Some words in Macedonian like Sarissa(spear) are far removed from their Greek equivilent. Indicating that the macedonians may well have spoken an entirely different language. It obviously was related to Greek and not Slavic like the FYROMers claim but neither was it classical Greek. Eventually Greek did become the common tongue of the Macedonians this trend only becomes obvious and historically provable when Macedonia was a Roman province.
     
  9. Philothei

    Philothei Love never fails

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    All in a Name

    by Dora Bakoyiannis




    (‘The Wall Street Journal’, 1 April, 2008)
    [link to original article]


    *
    The NATO summit comes to Southeastern Europe this week, and Greece is looking forward to it. The choice of Bucharest as the summit's host holds stark symbolism. Romania, having joined, alongside Bulgaria, the trans-Atlantic alliance in 2004 and the European Union last year, is a clear success story for our neighborhood.
    As the region's oldest NATO and EU member, Greece feels a profound obligation to be constructive, supportive and practical regarding our neighbors. We wholeheartedly espouse the policy of enlargement, and I am happy to say that two members of the so-called "Adriatic Three," Croatia and Albania, are today in a position to further the principles of the North Atlantic Treaty and earn their invitation to NATO in Bucharest. However, it saddens me that we cannot so far say the same about our neighbor, the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (Fyrom).
    For over 15 years, our two countries have been involved in United Nations-sponsored negotiations regarding Fyrom's name. Greece has real and concrete concerns over the issue. What's in a name, you may ask? A great deal, I can assure you. The term "Macedonia" has always been used to delineate a wider geographical region, approximately 51% of which is part of Greece, 38% of which is in Fyrom, and 9% of which is in Bulgaria.
    Not only does the government in Skopje insist on being the sole claimant to the name of an entire area -- the largest part of which lies outside its borders -- but authorities in Fyrom insist on portraying Greek Macedonia as "occupied" territory. While government leaders declare they have no designs on Greek territory, they refuse to remove such claims from textbooks, state maps and national documents. Only a few weeks ago, the country's prime minister was photographed laying a wreath on a monument to which a map of the so-called "Greater Macedonia" was attached; the map incorporated a considerable part of Northern Greece, including Greece's second-largest city, Thessaloniki.
    Winston Churchill is said to have observed once that "The Balkans produce much more history than they can consume." Make no mistake: Given this sensitive region's historical baggage, the monopolization of the term Macedonia by a single state is in no way conducive to good neighborly relations or regional stability. Perpetuating problems is always a recipe for trouble. We need a real solution to a real problem.
    And we are not alone in our quest. In the U.S. Congress, 115 members, both Republicans and Democrats, recently co-sponsored House Resolution 356, which expressed the "sense of the House of Representatives that Fyrom should stop hostile activities and propaganda against Greece, and should work with the United Nations and Greece to find a mutually acceptable official name." Senators Robert Menendez, Olympia Snowe and Barack Obama introduced a similar resolution in the Senate.
    Greece has spared no effort in responding to Fyrom's quest for economic growth and political stability. Greece is the country's largest foreign investor, with over $1 billion invested and more than 20,000 jobs created in the last decade, and is one of its biggest trade partners.
    We have come to the table with a clear objective: A long-overdue, mutually acceptable, composite name that includes the designation of Macedonia, but attaches an adjective to it to distinguish it from the broader geographical area of Macedonia. Greece has engaged in this process constructively and with an open mind. In an unprecedented policy shift, our government has unilaterally gone two-thirds of the way, accepting a number of proposals from U.N. mediator Matthew Nimetz as a basis for discussion. We have proven to be considerably flexible in our quest for a win-win solution.
    Unfortunately, our friends in Skopje have so far failed to cover any ground. They will not even agree to the basis of our talks, although it is clearly defined in two U.N. Security Council resolutions and one General Assembly resolution.
    Their counterproductive policy violates the basic principle of good neighborly relations -- a fundamental condition for any candidate country's Euro-Atlantic aspirations. As far as NATO is concerned, the Alliance has been unwavering in its demand that aspirant countries fulfill this criterion. NATO has consistently encouraged full normalization of relations not only with aspirants themselves but with neighboring third countries not belonging to the Alliance.
    Greece will spare no effort in reaching a real and viable solution for the sake of peace and stability in the region. Alliances and partnerships, however, can only be fostered among countries if there is mutual trust and goodwill.
    *Ms. Bakoyannis is Greece's foreign minister.

    TWo things History Nut...

    First I am a native Greek and a grad of the Seminary in America second... I feel pity for your fiance...

    My regards,
    Philothei

    "it is better to be envied than pitied"

    Herodotus
     
  10. Philothei

    Philothei Love never fails

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    Fallacy #3
    Ancient Macedonians were a tribe similar to the Greeks, but not Greek themselves.
    Fact #3

    Ancient Macedonians were one of more than the 230 Hellenic tribes, sub-tribes, and families of the Hellenic Nation that spoke more than 200 dialects. For more information see Herodotus, Thucydides, Titus Livius, Strabo, Nevi'im, Ketuvim, Apocrypha (Macabees I, 1-2). It was not until 1945 that their Hellenism has been challenged by the Slavs for expansionistic reasons.
     
  11. Philothei

    Philothei Love never fails

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    Fact #1

    The inhabitants of The FYROM are mostly Slavs, Bulgarians and Albanians. They have nothing in common with the ancient Macedonians. Here are some testimonies from The FYROM’s officials:
    a. The former President of The FYROM, Kiro Gligorov said: “We are Slavs who came to this area in the sixth century ... we are not descendants of the ancient Macedonians" (Foreign Information Service Daily Report, Eastern Europe, February 26, 1992, p. 35).
    b. Also, Mr Gligorov declared: "We are Macedonians but we are Slav Macedonians. That's who we are! We have no connection to Alexander the Greek and his Macedonia… Our ancestors came here in the 5th and 6th century" (Toronto Star, March 15, 1992).
    c. On 22 January 1999, Ambassador of the FYROM to USA, Ljubica Achevska gave a speech on the present situation in the Balkans. In answering questions at the end of her speech Mrs. Acevshka said: "We do not claim to be descendants of Alexander the Great … Greece is Macedonia’s second largest trading partner, and its number one investor. Instead of opting for war, we have chosen the mediation of the United Nations, with talks on the ambassadorial level under Mr. Vance and Mr. Nemitz." In reply to another question about the ethnic origin of the people of FYROM, Ambassador Achevska stated that "we are Slavs and we speak a Slav language.”
    d. On 24 February 1999, in an interview with the Ottawa Citizen, Gyordan Veselinov, FYROM'S Ambassador to Canada, admitted, "We are not related to the northern Greeks who produced leaders like Philip and Alexander the Great. We are a Slav people and our language is closely related to Bulgarian." He also commented, “There is some confusion about the identity of the people of my country."
    e. Moreover, the Foreign Minister of the FYROM, Slobodan Casule, in an interview to Utrinski Vesnik of Skopje on December 29, 2001, said that he mentioned to the Foreign Minister of Bulgaria, Solomon Pasi, that they "belong to the same Slav people.”


    How about Gligorov?? was he that stupid to say that about his country? He was just an educated "unbiased man"....
     
  12. Philothei

    Philothei Love never fails

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    Fallacy #6

    Ancient Macedonia was a nation state.
    Fact #6

    Before Phillip II, Macedonia was divided into small typical city-states having adopted the same concept of internal civic structure as the southern Greek city-states. Each Macedonian city-state or area had its own main city and government. Philip II united the Macedonian city-states by instituting and establishing a Homeric style of a Kingdom, maintaining the infrastructure of the smaller city-states with the various kings paying tribute to the king of all Macedonia. We know this from the fact that at one time the king of Lyncestis (present day Bitola - Florina) was Alexander. The point that has to be made clear is that a man’s first loyalty was to his city, not to the King of Macedonia (Hammond, The Macedonian State, p. 9).




    Also since you mentioned about the History of the Macedonia territory prior to Alexander.....All city states so typical of Greece... Same language same customs... only Philip united them to a Kingdom... no holes in this history...
     
  13. xristos.anesti

    xristos.anesti Veteran

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    ... is a mess....

    everyone should be spanked.... everyone...
     
  14. Philothei

    Philothei Love never fails

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    for what? lol...
     
  15. Vasileios

    Vasileios Eastern Orthodox Christian

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    I know many Turks who look like Greeks (especially around Asia Minor and of course Constantinople, many are descendants of genisaries, or islamicised(is that a word?) Greeks) but not one Greek who looks like a Turk! Outrage!

    As for the whole issue, it is pretty obvious that the problem is that we do not need 1,500,000 on our borders claiming and actually believing that a vast area of Greece belongs to them, that we persecuted them, that we killed them, that we suppressed their language etc. We already face problems from Turkey calling the minority in Thrace Turks who are not "home" and history has seen that these issues make great excuses when a threat of war exists for other reasons.

    THAT's the problem.

    Orthodoxy has absolutely nothing to do with this. It is a specific national problem of Greece.
     
  16. Historynut

    Historynut Junior Member

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    Ah the personal attack the last gasp of the out debated. But you may want to check your reading I said she was my girlfriend not my fiancee. How does seminary education make you and expert in ancient history. I at least have a degree in the field.

    I do like how you keep trying to imply I am taking ROM's side in the ethnic debate when infact I am not. Nice strawman you have made there.

    Oh look a quote form a historian implying Greece's view point how nice. Here are three with countering view points and one with a neutral just for fun.

    "Macedonia was a tribal kingdom, far larger than any Greek state but so loosely organized so and so beset by even more barbarian neighbors that had never been important. Its kings had fostered Greek culture at their courts and were accepted as Greek by the officials of the Olympic games; but the peasantry and nobles, though akin to the Greeks were considered distinct." Starr A History of the Ancient World pg. 367.

    "Here it helped considerably that, almost to a man, the new rulers were not city-state Greeks but Macedonians, brought up on a royal system" Green The Hellenistic Age pg. 47.

    "The kings of Macedonia, whose position in the state echoed the heroic, Homeric age, called themselves Argeads because they traced their roots back to Argos and Heracles, thus claiming pure Greek descent. The Greeks of the city-states were often skeptical about these assertions which were indeed fictitious - even though the court religion of Macedonia was Hellenic in character, thus reflecting ancient Greek influences. The upper class, a strong nobility which from time to time vociferously expressed its views to monarchs, spoke a language which possessed some relationship to Greek, or was one of its branches, prehaps a primitive Aeolic dialect. The rest of the population however, whose Aseembly was more or less powerless could lay little claim to Greek origins." Grant The Classical Greeks pp. 234-235.

    Lastly the neutral postition.

    "As for the peoples of the region, very little is yet known about them. A condescending Athenian such as Demosthenes could talk of 'Macedonian riffraff which could not even offer a good slave for sale in days gone by' but some may have spoken Greek dialects (the extent to which Greek was spoken in Macedonia is a subject of hot dispute) and certainly there is evidence of Greek cults in the area. It is meaningless to try and establish whether the Macedonians were, on this evidence, ethnically Greek or not." Freeman Egypt, Greece, and Rome pp 309-310.

    You and the modern Greeks as well as the FYROM supports are trying to twist history to fit your needs. Stating parts of ancient history as objective fact, when the truth is that they are subjective opinions does nothing to further the actual study of this field of history.

    Lastly lest you bother with more ad hominem attacks on myself. I will say I have no real opinion on the matter of wether the Macedonians were Greek or not. Professional historians are divided on the topic as well. I only wished to introject doubt on a question that has bedeviled modern historians since time immemorial which you wished to portray as settled fact. I have nothing left to say on this topic as it has grown stale and uncivil.
     
  17. Philothei

    Philothei Love never fails

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    How the fact that Gligorov does not believe that FYROM is not the ancient Macedonia(at least not ALL of Macedonia) can be a straw man?? He was the president of FYROM that should say a lot.

    Second just because I have not studied Ancient Greek civilization that does not mean I am ignorant... thanks for your personal attack too... Also you are not an Ancient Greek scholar either especially you cannot speak or write Greek ...so there is your disadvantage.

    There is no "neutral history" you are either Greek or not and you are either Slav or not. There is no such thing as neutral archeological evidence proves that Alexander was born in Pella also. As far the how people look like ...dah ...alll mediterenean people look alike pretty much from afar.. but when you look closer you can see the Roman nose the Greek nose the characteristics that are so prominent and scientists distinguish different people.

    My saying about your girlfriend was not an attack but an observation... I do not think there is anything wrong saying that a Greek looks like a Turk... no biggy we all look alike but doubting her ethnicity is outrageous!!!


    If you have no professional opinion... then why you think that by just pasting your quote mines is going to make a difference?? It does not because bottom line all history is tinted in our times.. and everything is up for grabs. I am not going to play the quote-mine game here either. Archeological evidence proves that Macedonia is in its majority in the Greek side. That is enough for me and apparently for the NATO nations who sided with Greece.


    Vassilie I knwo that this has nothing to do with Orthodoxy. It is though a matter of ethnic significance and a moral act of identity theft. We cannot say that America went to Iraque to "liberate" the Iraque people from their tyrant and make it into a moral act of mercy but denying another nation to claim its national identity.
     
  18. Khaleas

    Khaleas Also known as Jenn the Finn :)

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    Seems like someone needs to eat some meat...

    Good, since this horse seems to be pretty dead!
     
  19. Historynut

    Historynut Junior Member

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    Wow well I wanted to be done but I feel I need to clear up a few things for you.

    First of all, A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position. You keep bring up ethnicity as though I am agruing that FYROM has an ethnic claim to the title macedonia when I am not. I was not doubting your source's claim but the relevancy of bringing it up in the first place.

    Secondly if you would read what I posted I can not read modern Greek but I did learn some Attic Greek while no master of that language I was proficient enough to read Thucydides and Homer in Attic. Can you read ancient Greek or do you only know the modern language? Remember that Attic, Koine, and Modern Greek are pretty different so knowing or mastering one is not enough to say you know the others.

    I do not have a professional opinion because while I am a trained historian I am not a professional one. I leave the interpretation of data up to the professionals as they have more acess to the raw materials than I do. I just read the academic journals and books.

    My opinion on the Macedonian ethnicity issue is that there is insuficient data to draw a conclusion with any degree of certainty. The quotes were there to show that contrary to your opinion that it is a settled issue professional historians feel the issue is open to debate.

    As to your assertion that I am questioning my Girl Friends ethnicity that is reading to much in to the subject. She says often, as does her mother, that their must be some Turkish or possible pre-Doric Greek blood in their family to explain their looks.
     
  20. Philothei

    Philothei Love never fails

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    Quote:
    Are you certain that the macedonians were Hellenes.
    Yes.


    Quote:
    The majority of Ancient Greeks disputed this title with Macedonians. Orators like Demosthenes and Thrasymachus would have said that the Macedonias were not Greek.
    Politically motivated orators are nowhere near to be considered as non-biased source of information. Even more if your example contains the leader of Anti-Macedonian Athenean party and an orator in his struggle to oppose the Macedonian threat to Thessaly. Easily someone could bring up the other side of the story by mentioning Lykiskos but the same also applies to him too. Statements from politicians were never a safe way for getting out definite conclusions.


    Quote:
    Linguistics might imply otherwise as well. Eumenes a Greek used a translator to talk to the Macedonia troops of his phalanx. Language is often but not always an indicator of different ethnicity.
    False assertion. On the contrary Eumenes could communicate with Macedonians as easily someone could figure out from his speech to the phalanx after he was seized and tied. Just because Eumenes sent someone to talk to the Macedonian troops in Macedonian, doesnt mean anyway he couldnt understood them. In the same manner, we should assume that the Macedonian Antigenes, commander of argyraspids didnt speak Macedonian either and needed an translator, since he also dispatched one of his soldiers to talk to the phalanx. Even your own example, Demosthenes, wouldnt let this go and would certainly mention if Macedonian speech was not Greek. Recent Archaeological and ancient literary sources makes it explicitely Macedonian was a dialect of Greek.


    Quote:
    There is little to no evidence of Hellenization in Macedonia prior to the reign of Archelaus (413-399). Phillip II is the first Macedonian we have any proof of being educated in a Greek City state. Alexander is the first king of whose education we know much about at all. The Macedonians were essentially the first people in history to be hellenized
    Even if you take it logically you could also conclude the following: During their migration, people dont go around renaming existing toponymies in someone else’s language. They obviously rename them into their own. The original Ancient Macedonians, at the time of their migration to the place later called Macedonia, renamed existing Phrygian toponymies into Greek. It would be quite absurb to rename toponymies into:

    (i) Not their own language
    (ii) A language they didnt…understand.

    Furthermore there is no mention in ancient sources that Macedonians have been hellenized, as ancient sources mention quite clear about other ancient people (Thuc: Amphilochians, Plutarc.:kings of Molossians, etc)
     
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