Macedonia is Greek !!!!!

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Philothei

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No, it is just that I am very, very, very tired of ethnic Orthodox in this country and the way they shove their ethnicity down the throats of converts and often treat us converts as second class citizens because we are not Greek, Russian, Ukranian, Lebanese, Serbian, etc.
Then you are biased....
 
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ThePilgrim

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Hmm. This could be a topic on its own. I rather not hijack this thread
Well, I'm just a little surprised to hear that after the way NATO attacked the Serbs without provocation, targeting and destroying many ancient Churches and monasteries...

Grace and peace,
John
 
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EricTheRed

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Well, I'm just a little surprised to hear that after the way NATO attacked the Serbs without provocation, targeting and destroying many ancient Churches and monasteries...

Grace and peace,
John
I never said NATO has not had its major mistakes. The serb thing was a mess.

I just believe NATO is needed now more than any other time since the fall of the USSR.
 
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E.C.

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Ok, ethnic boundaries. It is time the world give back to Germany: the Sudetenland, the Memel, Danzig, the Polish lands that are ethnically German, Alsace and Lorraine and Austria. What is your point?
Can't make that claim now; after WWII something like 90% of the ethnic Germans in those areas were expelled.

I know Greece doesn't want the land; I think they (and Serbia) should get it anyway so they can re-evangelize the area.
Give it to Albania and Bulgaria.

The world is courting to the Albanian side anyway with Kosovo, so why not?
I've heard that the people in FYROM are closer related to Bulgarians than Greeks anyway.

No, it is just that I am very, very, very tired of ethnic Orthodox in this country and the way they shove their ethnicity down the throats of converts and often treat us converts as second class citizens because we are not Greek, Russian, Ukranian, Lebanese, Serbian, etc.
Sad, ain't it?

A PK I know that attends a college tried to get an OCF started with the Russians students that were Orthodox. They have yet to give her the time of day because of her American mutt-ness.

I never said NATO has not had its major mistakes. The serb thing was a mess.

I just believe NATO is needed now more than any other time since the fall of the USSR.
Hardly.

NATO was created with the sole purpose of countering the USSR. Its gone and in my opinion NATO should be as well.

Its just like how the Senate's Watergate Committee was created to investigate the Watergate scandal. They did their job, showed off their findings, Nixon resigned and the Committee ceased to exist because it had no reason to.

The USSR was NATO's whole reason for being. Its gone.
 
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Michael G

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Then you are biased....
Biased? The local greek parishes wont let a very talented friend of mine write icons for them because he is Greek but attends an Antiochian parish?! I was also told by a very well connected Greek that the only way for me to be able to write icons for Greeks in Cleveland is to have a very well connected Greek introduce me to the Greek community, no matter how talented I am. Biased? No, I have plenty of reason to see things the way I do.
 
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Michael G

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Can't make that claim now; after WWII something like 90% of the ethnic Germans in those areas were expelled.


Give it to Albania and Bulgaria.

The world is courting to the Albanian side anyway with Kosovo, so why not?
I've heard that the people in FYROM are closer related to Bulgarians than Greeks anyway.


Sad, ain't it?

A PK I know that attends a college tried to get an OCF started with the Russians students that were Orthodox. They have yet to give her the time of day because of her American mutt-ness.


Hardly.

NATO was created with the sole purpose of countering the USSR. Its gone and in my opinion NATO should be as well.

Its just like how the Senate's Watergate Committee was created to investigate the Watergate scandal. They did their job, showed off their findings, Nixon resigned and the Committee ceased to exist because it had no reason to.

The USSR was NATO's whole reason for being. Its gone.
Not quite, EC. Austria is about 99% ethnically German. But, Austria is its own state and deservedly so.
 
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Michael G

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remember, though, Greece is not asking for land. She is asking that the integrity of history and name be upheld. Just as she protested the use of a landmark within Greek borders on FYROM currency.
In the end, what does it matter? Is this really something worth fighting over? Last I checked, both Philothei and Thekla and all of the other Greeks on this forum live in the United States. While you might have Greek heritage, you are now Americans. I guess that is what gets me most about the ethnic Orthodox in this country. They call them selves such and such a nationality, when the fact is they are Americans. They let their ethnicity divide the church instead of uniting the American Church and letting the church slowly begin the process of forming its own identity. And that is the heart of the issue why I take such offense to the Greeks, Lebanese, Russians, Ukranians, Serbs etc and the way they treat the church and the non-ethnic Orthodox in this country.
 
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Philothei

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my post failed ....grrr...


Well, Michael... you do let your feeling discriminated guide you on issues... That is what I meant by saiying you are biased. What do you want us to do? To forget about the issues other orthodox people around the world struggle with to pass by? Are you advocating that the Serbs are wrong? The bombing over Easter was justified? With that logic anyone could 'steal' from anyone and the most powerful wins. Is this what Orthodoxy stands for?

Also yes, it is not silly to 'bother' about boundaries or indentity. The world is going unchecked too much... when is it going to stop? I cannot understand if someone would take your name and also wanted your assets I do not think you would consent to that. You would want your assets and your name cleared.

Just because Greeks and Russsians and everyone else identify as such and they do hire people from their nations... it does not mean they 'discriminate"... When those immigrants who came here were ferecely discriminated.... because of color and origin. Why are you offended they do?? Are we asking for too much now? This land taught them to do that... to discriminate. Also iconography is a taugh market. Greeks like Byzantine iconography and we are used to Kontoglou style and late Byzantine style. If to you (personal preference) is discrimination then it is your problem. True there are many Greek iconographers who are Greek and have "connections" that is part of life get over it. I know some Greeks who are not hired either and they had years of training in AThos and studied iconography under big names and still not hired... Connections are everywhere in this land... I was having a hard time to be hired because I am an immigrant. I cannot prove it but it is true. Also the last job I had (hired even by a Greek american) I was told that my english was poor (even if I have a MA) ... and they did a favour to hire me... how about that??? Although I am frustrated with the job market ... I never though tried to paint a black pic of Americans .. since they are NOT all the same.. and I am not into generalizations....
 
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Matrona

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Give it to Albania and Bulgaria.

The world is courting to the Albanian side anyway with Kosovo, so why not?
I've heard that the people in FYROM are closer related to Bulgarians than Greeks anyway.

That's even better - maybe we can make Albania take half of FYROM instead of Kosovo.

A PK I know that attends a college tried to get an OCF started with the Russians students that were Orthodox. They have yet to give her the time of day because of her American mutt-ness.

I've had the same problem. Only, it was American "mutts" who refused to have anything to do with the Greeks.

It's sick and bizarre, but I've noticed a lot of anti-Greek sentiment among American converts because Greeks don't forsake their culturally-based expressions of the faith. They hold to the same faith as me and that's all I need. The Greeks practically drag me to coffee hour whenever I visit with them. They even gave me free prime rib one time just because I was there.
 
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T

Thekla

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In the end, what does it matter? Is this really something worth fighting over? Last I checked, both Philothei and Thekla and all of the other Greeks on this forum live in the United States. While you might have Greek heritage, you are now Americans. I guess that is what gets me most about the ethnic Orthodox in this country. They call them selves such and such a nationality, when the fact is they are Americans. They let their ethnicity divide the church instead of uniting the American Church and letting the church slowly begin the process of forming its own identity. And that is the heart of the issue why I take such offense to the Greeks, Lebanese, Russians, Ukranians, Serbs etc and the way they treat the church and the non-ethnic Orthodox in this country.
of my six children, the ethnicity of godparents and spouse is as follows:
1. Albanian/USEnglish extraction
2. Greek/Greek
3. Palestinian/Jordanian
4. Greek/Greek
5. Greek/USScottish extraction
6. Lebanese/USIrishextraction

we have always attended GOAParishes, and godparents were also attendees (how we knew them)

I have also supported the effort to maintain "straight history" on the Armenian genocide, and am careful to teach my children as accurate a history (using -sometimes conflicting- primary sources) as well as secondary sources for all world regions studied.

And my husbands ethnicity is Spanish/PolishJew

I am advocating the maintenance of historical integrity and respect ;for example, I strongly dislike the habit of US citizens to pronounce themselves "American" in view, while simultaneously forgetting that other Americans (in the North, Middle and South continents) hold adamantly different views and are equally American.
 
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Philothei

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I think that we should allow this thread to be about the Skopje/Macedonia issue not "how friendly ethnic Orthdoox parishes are in America" that is a different issue...Anyone wish to "wine" about that issue can start up their own thread...Thanks. No offense but I am not conserned of how "sympathetic" or not everone feels about our Churches that is a different issue.

Philothei
 
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Philothei

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Greece’s Flexibility on FYROM

Published: April 3, 2008

To the Editor:

Editorial: The Republic Formerly Known As ... (March 30, 2008) Regarding your March 30 editorial “The Republic Formerly Known As,” let me emphasize that Greece supports NATO’s enlargement to those candidates who respect the principles of trust, solidarity and good neighborly relations.

While you say “tiny Macedonia poses no threat whatsoever to Greece,” the authorities in the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, or Fyrom, portray Greek Macedonia as “occupied” territory, refusing to remove such claims from textbooks, speeches, articles, documents and maps of “Greater Macedonia,” which includes parts of northern Greece.

Such irredentism and hostile propaganda are more befitting to 19th-century policies than 21st-century NATO membership.

One hundred fifteen members of the United States House of Representatives co-sponsored H.R. 356, asking Fyrom to “stop hostile activities and propaganda against Greece.” Senators Robert Menendez, Barack Obama and Olympia Snowe introduced a similar resolution in the Senate.

The government in Skopje insists on being the exclusive claimant to the name of an entire area, the largest part of which lies outside its borders, and insists on portraying Greek Macedonia as occupied territory. The term “Macedonia” has always been used to delineate a wider geographical region, approximately 51 percent of which is part of Greece, 38 percent of Fyrom and 9 percent of Bulgaria.

We have come to the table with a clear objective: a long-overdue, mutually acceptable composite name that includes the designation of Macedonia, but attaches an adjective to it to distinguish it from the broader geographical area of Macedonia. Greece has engaged in this process constructively and with an open mind.

In an unprecedented policy shift, our government has unilaterally gone two-thirds of the way, accepting a number of proposals from the United Nations mediator, Matthew Nimetz, as a basis for discussion. We have proved to be considerably flexible in our quest for a win-win solution. All we ask is that Fyrom travel the rest of the distance.

Alexandros P. Mallias
Ambassador of Greece
Washington, March 30, 2008
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/03/opinion/lweb03greece.html?_r=1&ref=opinion&oref=slogin

That was in reaction of the NYT article about how "bad" we Greeks are in vetoing for FYROM.
 
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Philothei

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Skopje City Park to be renamed after George Bush

Skopje /04/04/ 13:32

The City Park in Macedonian capital Skopje should be renamed after U.S. President George Bush, said Skopje Mayor Trifun Kostovski.

The initiative, which has been already submitted to City Council, is to express the huge gratitude to President Bush for his support to Macedonia's NATO bid at the summit in Bucharest as well as for the United States' recognition of Macedonia by its constitutional name. /end/

In gratitude.....

We also have the "America" square, "kennedy" square...lol.. (which acutally is close to where my parents live) and also Truman street and others ....but Bush park... for some reason the too seem to go along together .....Bush gardens, Bush park... nice :)
 
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Historynut

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This whole argument makes my head hurt. Sounds to me like a reasonable solution might be if Greece would rename its' province and FYROM rename itself as well. That way neither side has a monopoly on the name of an ancient kingdom to which both sides have some territorial claim. I know this wont happen but one could hope right?

I do think this whole argument would seem perverse to the ancient Macedonians and Hellenes.
 
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