Macedonia is Greek !!!!!

[Thekla]

I just returned home from a Symposium on Faith and Justice and the whole lot of ethnic-geographic-racial-socio-etc just gripes the crap out of me in the early 21st c.

Forgive me,

Spoken by a true Heinz 57,
Clem

hey, Heinz57 Clement, get with it

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r20gXd1Gd78

 

[Michael G]

Galatians 3:28


I just returned home from a Symposium on Faith and Justice and the whole lot of ethnic-geographic-racial-socio-etc just gripes the crap out of me in the early 21st c.

Forgive me,

Spoken by a true Heinz 57,
Clem

I agree with you. I am very quickly tiring of ethnicity within Orthodoxy and can see very clearly why this subject tends to scare of inquirers!

 

[Thekla]

I agree with you. I am very quickly tiring of ethnicity within Orthodoxy and can see very clearly why this subject tends to scare of inquirers!

I think that tends to reflect that most of us USA folks have no sense of the identity we have lost; as a bishop noted, there needs to be something of value/identity in a culture for Christianity to "lift" - the place where one learns depth,community, spiritual ways of seeing, etc. Without this, conversion is more 'difficult'.

I honestly don't think most USAmericans would care if Mexico imprinted the Lincoln Memorial on their coinage, or if Ontario changed their name to Vermont, (though the Brits and the US literati used to each claim TS Eliot as their own) or even if Canada claimed Thoreau was Canadian. But that doesn't make such claims ok, or consistent; it certainly muddies the study of history.

 

[Philothei]

God sends inquirers God takes them away or turns them off not me.. or you... When a person converts it is through God's grace not our "image" as orthodox... We are not buisness people here mere sinners with weaknesses and stuggles... Greece won the war with Turkey and got its independence...Orthodoxy played a tremendous role as their faith was the driving force for their liberation... Being ethnic does not mean being sovenistic or imperialistic... keeping your borders is self defense not imperialism....sorry to disagree....

 

[buzuxi02]

FYROM should change its name to Skupi or Vardar as it was always known as, and NATO needs to dismantle, theres no need for its existence.

 

[EricTheRed]

Nato rocks

 

[Philothei]

...the world....

 

[Matrona]

God sends inquirers God takes them away or turns them off not me.. or you... When a person converts it is through God's grace not our "image" as orthodox... We are not buisness people here mere sinners with weaknesses and stuggles... Greece won the war with Turkey and got its independence...Orthodoxy played a tremendous role as their faith was the driving force for their liberation... Being ethnic does not mean being sovenistic or imperialistic... keeping your borders is self defense not imperialism....sorry to disagree....

I agree. It's exclusivism that we need to worry about, not "ethnicity". I would be very upset if someone decided I couldn't be Orthodox because I wasn't Greek or whatever, but at the same time there is no good reason a GOARCH church shouldn't have Greek in their liturgy if the community wants it. Now, if the choir there is so awful that I can't tell whether they're singing in Greek or English anyhow, that's a real cause for concern.

That said, I do think it's wrong to automatically take someone or some country's side just because they are Orthodox. I take Greece's side, not because they are an Orthodox country, but because they happen to be right. We should have empathy for anyone enduring something like this, Orthodox or not.

 

[EricTheRed]

Am I the only one that doesn't see the big deal here?

I am more concerned of the Macedonian Church schism than about a name.

Edit: also just curious. Are there any big problems with that church? or is the schism just political?

 

[Philothei]

Matrona I agree on both issues the language issue and the ethnic... If ethnicity makes us blind... it is not good... and in this case it is not. For all who know me here and all of us GA here we are not "xenophobic" or want "our Greek way" ... anyways Greeks by origin should be philoxenous...

I have to figure out if the ARchibishop is still in prison not sure...

The "name" as you call it is important .. .it sets a example (a bad one) for more nations to follow and it is identity and cultural theft... It may not be a big deal to you but to the rest of the world, as they feel that in our times identities and people get "blended" as globalization progresses.... what a shame!

 

[ThePilgrim]

Nato rocks

It does? How so?

 

[MariaRegina]

I just received this letter in my email account ....






Beloved Brothers and Sisters in the Lord,

A few days ago we were called to celebrate the 187th anniversary of the Independence of our motherland Greece from the Ottoman Empire's 400 year bondage of slavery. We paid homage to the millions of our ancestors who sacrificed their lives so that today we can enjoy the most precious gift of all that is FREEDOM. Greece, a most faithful ally of the United States, is a great contributor to humanity and a stabilizing force in the European continent and most specifically in the Balkans. Yet FYROM (Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia), during the last 17 years, has engaged herself in a campaign which threatens to destabilize the area by claiming rights over the name Macedonia and utilizing symbols and names which, for thousands of years, have been Greek. In a few days in Bucharest, the NATO allies will meet to decide if FYROM will be extended an invitation for membership. Greece's position has been clear. If there is no solution regarding FYROM's name, there will be no invitation on the part of Greece which is equivalent to a VETO. The attached letter to the Secretary of State Condoleeza Rice is self explanatory. We urge all of you to send this letter under your name to her so that she will understand that the Greek-American populace is united behind the sovereign rights of our motherland Greece. Let us, as Orthodox Christians, stand together and persevere with faith and love, for the protection of our brothers and sisters and their homeland.

With Love in Christ,
XMetropolitan Gerasimos of San Francisco

 

[Michael G]

Germanic peoples are widespread in that area... Not with Greek ... Slavs are slavs and their history starts on around 800 AD and on and greeks were there all that time... we are not the same people...

Not Germanic peoples, but people who are German. Most of Central Europe was at one time part of "germany." The argument of Alexander the Great being Greek and he was from Macedonia is so weak. He lived 2400 years ago. That is like saying that because The University of Prag was the first University in Europe to be taught in German (not a Germanic tongue, but German) that Prag is German and thus deserves to be returned to Germany. And that happened only 1400 years ago!!! Such thinking is uber nationalistic thinking similar to the way the NSDAP taught in the 30s and is quite dangerous.

 

[Michael G]

I just received this letter in my email account ....






Beloved Brothers and Sisters in the Lord,

A few days ago we were called to celebrate the 187th anniversary of the Independence of our motherland Greece from the Ottoman Empire's 400 year bondage of slavery. We paid homage to the millions of our ancestors who sacrificed their lives so that today we can enjoy the most precious gift of all that is FREEDOM. Greece, a most faithful ally of the United States, is a great contributor to humanity and a stabilizing force in the European continent and most specifically in the Balkans. Yet FYROM (Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia), during the last 17 years, has engaged herself in a campaign which threatens to destabilize the area by claiming rights over the name Macedonia and utilizing symbols and names which, for thousands of years, have been Greek. In a few days in Bucharest, the NATO allies will meet to decide if FYROM will be extended an invitation for membership. Greece's position has been clear. If there is no solution regarding FYROM's name, there will be no invitation on the part of Greece which is equivalent to a VETO. The attached letter to the Secretary of State Condoleeza Rice is self explanatory. We urge all of you to send this letter under your name to her so that she will understand that the Greek-American populace is united behind the sovereign rights of our motherland Greece. Let us, as Orthodox Christians, stand together and persevere with faith and love, for the protection of our brothers and sisters and their homeland.

With Love in Christ,
XMetropolitan Gerasimos of San Francisco

Bishops really need to stay out of politics.

 

[prodromos]

Michael, did someone run over one of your dogs today?

 

[Philothei]

Not Germanic peoples, but people who are German. Most of Central Europe was at one time part of "germany." The argument of Alexander the Great being Greek and he was from Macedonia is so weak. He lived 2400 years ago. That is like saying that because The University of Prag was the first University in Europe to be taught in German (not a Germanic tongue, but German) that Prag is German and thus deserves to be returned to Germany. And that happened only 1400 years ago!!! Such thinking is uber nationalistic thinking similar to the way the NSDAP taught in the 30s and is quite dangerous.

Michael you either do not understand or you do not want to... I cannot see how you confuse two different issues... It is NOT a matter of boundaries... We do not want others to use our name of our province... It DOES have to do with history and distortion of somenone's history...

How would Germany like for the Austrians to call their capital Berlin? To use anything German and call it Austrian to present themselves as part of the very thing that is German like ... the beer??? or that Geutche and Van Gaugh was Austrian? Claiming all German heritage as theirs? How would YOU feel then?


This type of distortion is dangerous... Of course the Germans never like the Greeks for their heritage but the were admirers of ancient Greeks as they claimed to be their ancestors, esp. Hitler when he came to Greece. This is the reason he did not bomb Athens. That was so mercyfull of him... no doubt. Also if the Europeans had any sense of history they would not want this part (that is btw one 7% the old Macedonia and if you took the time to read some you would realise that) to be called Macedonia, since the name already exists as our province.




And if Bishops would stay out of politics we would not have anyone to guide us to the truth... Since politicians are doing a lousy job leading us to disaster, and relativism. It was the Greek clergy that led our nation to its freedom. I am sure the underground Church in Russia helped and still helps with the reconstruction ... is it better to have a corrupted church that gives in to the state?? Your choice not mine. The Church should stand by its people in difficult times such as these for any nation. We see this in Serbia and many Orthodox countries. If your blinders do not let you see it ... I am sorry but that does not mean that I have to comply with your outlook...


Now this is the news that came in today for the issue at hand. And while some of you think this is a mandane issue it seems to me that some Europeans smartened up and realize the magnitute of the problem:




An invitation to FYROM to join NATO was postponed after Greek Prime Minister Kostas Karamanlis vetoed Skopje’s entry at the Bucharest NATO Summit late on Wednesday. Karamanlis laid out Greece’s positions at the working luncheon of the 26 leaders and noted that Greece cannot give its consent to Skopje’s entry unless the name dispute is resolved. The Greek delegation’s battle is now focusing on the wording of the Summit’s conclusion text. In the meantime, FYROM government spokesman Ivica Bocevski dismissed information aired on Romanian media, whereby his country’s delegation had walked out of the alliance’s Summit. The FYROM delegation will not decided on what to do before the official resolution of the NATO leaders comes out, Bocevski told Athens News Agency (ANA/MPA).





Settling the Name Row Is a Prerequisite


Kostas Karamanlis made it clear that only if the name dispute is solved will Greece give its consent to FYROM’s entry.

The leaders of France, Italy, Spain, Luxemburg and Iceland championed the Greek positions, while those of Hungary, Slovakia, Belgium, the Netherlands and Germany appeared pretty understanding. On the other hand, the USA, Turkey, Slovenia, the Czech Republic, Estonia and Lithuania opposed the Greek side, while Denmark, Bulgaria and Norway were also not that keen on giving their backing to Greece. Canada, Britain and Portugal avoided taking a stand on the issue.

The staunchest champion of the Greek positions, French President Nicola Sarkozy argued, "We stand in solidarity with Greeks, we believe that a solution must be found. I have Hungarian roots, but I also have Greek roots and I fully assume them."

Go Sarcozy

The working luncheon was preceded by a short ceremony, during which the Greek Prime Minister had brief talks with all his counterparts, including the US President.

Greece clarified that, although it wished to see FYROM joining NATO the soonest possible, it cannot consent as long as the name row remains unsolved, commented NATO spokesman James Appathurai, also adding that only Albania and Croatia were unanimously offered an invitation to enter the alliance.
There was no breakthrough for the former Soviet republics of Ukraine and Georgia, either.

The NATO spokesman also noted that after that the campaign to have the name dispute settled should continue, without, however, certain timelines having been set.

Earlier, EU Commissioner for EU Enlargement Olli Rehn had dismissed the Greek flag insult in FYROM as a dreadful token of hatred against a neighbouring nation.

Media in FYROM speak of long-term implications on bilateral relations.





Political Reactions


Greece’s Interior Minister Prokopis Pavlopoulos said that the Prime Minister did exactly what he had pledged. "FYROM should realise that good-neighbourly relations are a prerequisite for accession to international bodies," added he.

 

[Michael G]

Philothei,
Actually, a good bit of Austrian history, namely that before 1866 was deeply interwoven into German (ie. Prussian) history because prior to the Austro-Prussian War Austria was the largest and and most powerful German State. Thus the history of modern day Germany is dictated by Berlin, and not Vienna. If the Austrians had won that war the capital could very well have ended up Vienna. And as for bier, Austrians make just as good of bier as Germans do, if not better. I think you fail to see the point I am making. Ethnicity and nationality are not always as clear cut of things as they look, and in the end the have NOTHING to do with Orthodoxy.

As for my statement about bishops staying out of politics, I will always stand by that belief. The bishops role is to teach the Gospel, not to teach ethnicity. Maybe the EP should spend some serious time praying about that and contemplating that in light of the uncanonical situation in this country!

 

[Michael G]

No, it is just that I am very, very, very tired of ethnic Orthodox in this country and the way they shove their ethnicity down the throats of converts and often treat us converts as second class citizens because we are not Greek, Russian, Ukranian, Lebanese, Serbian, etc.

 

[Thekla]

Not Germanic peoples, but people who are German. Most of Central Europe was at one time part of "germany." The argument of Alexander the Great being Greek and he was from Macedonia is so weak. He lived 2400 years ago. That is like saying that because The University of Prag was the first University in Europe to be taught in German (not a Germanic tongue, but German) that Prag is German and thus deserves to be returned to Germany. And that happened only 1400 years ago!!! Such thinking is uber nationalistic thinking similar to the way the NSDAP taught in the 30s and is quite dangerous.

perhaps you would share your thoughts on FYROMs use of a Thessaloniki landmark* (in Greece) on FYROM currency

*the White Tower of Thessaloniki

 

[Philothei]

Philothei,
Actually, a good bit of Austrian history, namely that before 1866 was deeply interwoven into German (ie. Prussian) history because prior to the Austro-Prussian War Austria was the largest and and most powerful German State. Thus the history of modern day Germany is dictated by Berlin, and not Vienna. If the Austrians had won that war the capital could very well have ended up Vienna. And as for bier, Austrians make just as good of bier as Germans do, if not better. I think you fail to see the point I am making. Ethnicity and nationality are not always as clear cut of things as they look, and in the end the have NOTHING to do with Orthodoxy.

As for my statement about bishops staying out of politics, I will always stand by that belief. The bishops role is to teach the Gospel, not to teach ethnicity. Maybe the EP should spend some serious time praying about that and contemplating that in light of the uncanonical situation in this country!

Do not tell me what the EP should or should not do... We defenately prayed in time of danger thus our Akathist hymn (in case of memory loss...) ...and it was our Patriarch that lead it plus our Empreror Palailogos... What is your point? we do not pray enough? or that you are biased by your convertitis?? If we join a church because we have to feel important then yes Orthdoxy is not that... sorry. Our hierarchy proclaims and points to the truth and in time of danger is there to support with prayer and uniting its members under its umbrella. If you feel ... upset about ethnicity then you can bring forth your own we do not mind being German (since you do brag about your German heritage...IMO) and nobody objects to that, at least I have no problem about it. Although I recall some thread here about Germany and how much ethnically conscious you got "defending" Germany. It was an educational thread and we had to close it down... Maybe you recall... I personally thought that pointing out the "wrongs" of our nations is no biggy... we are all judged, one way or another. You were the one who got offended...

I am supprised at your comments and through pms others also are too.... It is a shame you do not even try to sympathize with an issue that could happen to any country ( and I do not wish it...) and can have long terms effects on its identity and offends its boundaries.

Greek civilization has tremendously offered to the western world in all areas of life... Apparently French, and Belgians as well as Germans etc. can see that ... and we are thankful. Denying to recognize somenoe's right to fight for their identity is like shooting yourself on the foot in the long run.... as it sets a bad standard for the future... I am so sorry you cannot see that but maybe our world who does not respect God, never mind civilizations who gave so much to the world, will come to realize soon that this kind of praxis is demoralizing to our society...It is not only wrong but criminal.