Macedonia is Greek !!!!!

[OnceDust]

OnceDust,

You said you cam here to give the other side of the story. Thank you, you have done so, and you have done an admiral job. Your job here is complete.

Please do feel free to come back and participate in more uplifting and edifying threads, though.

I completely agree.

 

[Philothei]

First off you still flip flop... You try to say we 'claim anscestory...and then you say we are "mixture" of people... You are too confused in your arguments...
You are either Greek Macedonians or not... And you cannot claim DNA proof...period.
You belong to the Slavic people... as far as your genetics. period...

Then though you say that you should be called macedonia and you identify with Macedonia but....Macedonia is Greek and you are not Greek so how do you justify your name?

It is a clear case of "stolen identity" Both arguments are moot...

Exactly what it says, that Macedonia was cut off culturally from southern Greece. Macedonians were, for a long time, forbidden to participate in the Olympics. I quoted source on that too. It was not out of context, and was concise enough to make the point that the Macedonians were not considered "true Greeks".

macedonia was no more cut off than Athens from Sparta... there was rivary between city states. The more you write and repeat the same things the more I will ...too... I am patient and I have nowhere to go ...

Macedonians were Greeks the Olympics were always a debatable event and some states did not participate out of spite for Athens .. They had rivary...Again...

I'm sorry, but even Greece was not a Parliamentary Democracy until 1975. While I will grant that history of Greece and Macedonia is vast, you cannot compare the dates of the current form of government and to the history as a whole. If we're going there, then Greece only has 33 years of history, NOT eons.

We became a nation in 1821 and we did had democracy on and off.... is Italy a recent nation too since they had Musolini for some time ??? or Germany ??? with Hitler... that was a silly argument and pointed to give missinformation ...nice.


We had our first constittution around 1840 or so. what is the point?

It would be nice if we were together, in a sense, the EU or other economic cooporation. We aren't the ones preventing that.

It would be nice if you acted like real neighbours instead of stealing from your neighbour :history, a name you do not deserve and also lie...to him and others, and accuse us of all kinds of things...but you still do anyways i do not see any "repentance" involved here...

I beg to differ. I don't blame the former president Gligorov for trying to preserve the foundation the country is based on. At the time of the talks, Greece withdrew, thwarted its UN power with the embargo, refusal to let Macedonia ascend into other international organizations with the VETO. THAT's what got the US and UN involved. We work with the UN and the US, among other things to send soldiers to Iraq--36 of which have returned today and safe I'm happy to say. I for one am happy for their help and that we can work together.

Ha! Grigorov took his words back... he is the one who said that macedonia belonged to Greece...did he??? Greece withdrew because we were promised probably that this problem will end and our government was gulluble to believe it....The VETO was the only means we have to stop this parody... US and UN was already involved...
What does Iraque has anything to do with the topic??

Our logic differs in that you only refer to Greeks as Macedonians, and I refer to the people who have constantly lived here by that group;

yeah? how come then we have a different dna?

it is a main point in the whole issue and you are writing to your logic and I to mine. People have ALWAYS occupied the territory of Macedonia. It is not a simple matter of geography.

There are no two logics never can be. You are trying to swiftly capitalize on our anscenstory and name... You have an agenda behind it and your current maps witness to it... it is a matter of geography defenately that suits your imperialistic plans...

They didn't just magically appear with the slavics. They blended, developed, added to their own culture, and the language developed al......

But, you will say this is biased, propoganda, slanted--despite these samples come from every point of history. We can go back and forth until we are blue in the face for this. The fact that we do have help--ie; The US, UN, should say something about you trying to use powers to bully a developing nation with a rich history, culture, and people. Every person who has lived and died for their Macedonia has a right to their identity.



It was so much more than that with Demosthenes. He not only called Phillip a barbarian-ie: Non-greek, he said "not only no Greek, nor related to the Greeks" . I think it's very clear that Demosthenes considered Philip and his...........................

It is simple the Greeks are there. You are not.. You are slavs...There is no intermingling, you came there the later much much later... and also got your name from Tito... Are you bored by now repeating the same and same over and over.???

We are not bullying your nation. We are telling you to change and give us back our name... We aid your nation. We are the rightful people to have this name.

I think that all here must be familiar with Demosthenes by now... don't you think?? he was a writer with an agenda...many politicians did and still do... Actually you remind me of one... You must be so involved in politics right??

So, the quote from Alexander regarding the address to his army wasn't clear enough huh? Even so, That was Alexander himself talking about "our way of life" and "our language" "Macedonians are going to judge your case" There is no need for any explanation.

Alexander was Greek from Pella... Do you know even where that city is?? also where are your Greek names? I bet you have a slavic name right?? If you are Macedonian then you should also speak ....Macedonian... which is a Greek dialect... Do you know greek?? I doubt it or you have managed to take a "Greek for travellers" so you can prove your anscestory??

Here are a few quotes from Eugene Borza, who is on your "80 authors of Macedonia is Greek website"


[2] "The lesson is clear: the use of the Greek language as a form of written expression does not by itself identify the ethnicity of a culture". ("In the Shadow of Olympus -The Emergence of Macedon", p. 94.)
"As the Macedonians settled the region following the expulsion of existing peoples, they probably introduced their own customs and language(s); there is no evidence that they adapted any existing language, even though they were now in contact with neighboring populations who spoke a variety of Greek and non-Greek tongues."
"Hammond's firm conclusion that the Macedonian spoke a distinctive dialect of Aeolic Greek is unconvincing to me, resting as it does on an interpretation of a bit of myth quoted by Hellanicus, who made Aeolus the father of the legendary progenitor Macedon". ("In the Shadow of Olympus" p.92.)
"The handful of surviving genuine Macedonian words - not loan words from a Greek - do not show the changes expected from a Greek dialect. And even had they changed at some point it is unlikely that they would have reverted to their original form". ("In the Shadow of Olympus" p.93.)
"As a question of method: why would an area three hundred miles north of Athens - not colonized by Athens - used an Attic dialect, unless it were imported? That is, the Attic dialect could hardly be native, and its use is likely part of the process of Hellenization. To put the question differently: if the native language of the Macedonians is Greek, what is its Macedonian dialect?"

f
of course from a FYrom historian...oh well....
Proves my point exctatly it was a dilect...

There is written evidence to show that Macedonians had a language very different from Greek. It is not enough to construct the entire language, but it shows that more than Greek was written and spoken by the Macedonians. That is what John Shay meant when he said there aren't many written records. Some of those samples are at the local museum here, and I will stop by when I can.

All good evidence from "your scholars"... ha? There are no writen records about the pronanciation of words that is why Erasmus came up with one... (which is wrong BTW) but still the Alphabet is Greek... Do you use in your language Greek characters? If so why not all and how come you do not use Alexandrian macedonian language still???

because you are not "from there" but you are slavs.

We have a name, and it's not my problem if you don't like it or recognize it. Many simply refer to this country as Macedonia. On every atlas (like National Geographic), encyclopedia (like Britanika), newspaper (like New York Times), and TV media (like CNN), Macedonia is referred simply as Macedonia. Even the US Secretary of State Warren Christopher, and Defense Secretary William Perry, speak of Macedonians and refer to Macedonia as Macedonia. Matthew Nimitz, the US mediator in the Greek - Macedonian talks has said that "the country has an Constitutional name - Republic of Macedonia" and that besides the opposing of Greece, Macedonia was admitted at UN under the reference "former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia", but that is "only a reference and not name".

YYou have "no name" becasue you do not want to use it...not that it is not there...You have had a name and it was Verdska.. .i think or to that effect. Also you could go for Skopja....Your problem is that you do not want to identify with anything Slavic...but that is who you are as in Geography, history and anscestory... Denying your identity is a serious matter. Like I said before how would you feel that Alexander the Great is from another counry?? You conveniently did not anwer my question... i will take it you are planning to take over our Macedonia so that the name and the Hero... would make sense then...right??

Diplomats will work out the solution in good time. I think the current pressure will finally yield a solution. We have anscestory, history, and archeology, but not according the theory you subscribe to. What you will call reputable historians propaganda is also not my problem.

Sure hope so. you have non of the above. No history, no anscestory no archeology as far as Macedonia is concerned...You have though slavic history etc. that you should feel proud off... You are constructing a problem with your children who will grow up to believe that they are Macedonians while they are not... A lie that you are responsible to answer to them one day....

It would be a solution, a chance to move on, to be in NATO and the EU, and continue progressing. Actually, many people today think of Goce Delcev as the modern liberator of Macedonia. He was martyred in a stand against the Ottoman Empire in Krusevo:

http://www.mymacedonia.net/history/goce.htm

And it is heros like him that we fight to preserve our identity.

Now how is that hero of yours Macedonian with such a slavic name?...

You keep pointing the finger at a hidden "agenda" based on territorial claims when that is no longer possible. I think the thing that probably scares Greeks the most in the Macedonian Constitution is this:

Constitutions changed.. period I am not a grade schooler. Thank you...

• • "The Republic of Macedonia cares for the statue and rights of those persons belonging to the Macedonian people in neighboring countries, as well as Macedonian ex-parties, assists their cultural development and promotes links with them."

  Athens sees Article 49 to be a direct threat for the security of Greece because Macedonia cares for the people in Greece who consider themselves Macedonians. How can a country of two million be a danger to Greece's ten million? Furthermore, Greece has also similar article in her Constitution, as any other country in the world, to care for her minorities in the neighboring countries. Should Albania, Bulgaria, and Turkey, urge the world not to recognize Greece because of her Constitution to care for her minorities in these neighboring countries? It is not an agenda to reclaim land, it is an ingrain right and common practice all over the world. I will answer to your "treatment" of the ethnic minority in Macedonia in anther post.​

it is a threat... And with the right "friends" the sky is the limit as to what you can accomplish. That is what they all say.. that it is for the minorities... but in our situation it cuts deeper...as the name and the geographical claims combined with your "logic" it is defenately for a good reason we are up in arms...It does not take a genious to see that..

How it is possible that the Western countries have chosen to follow "democratic" Greece where lies prevail over the truth? The European Court found the Greek embargo illegal and put Greece on trial, but did nothing to stop it while it was so harmful to the Macedonian economy. The Innerim accord stated that Greece will not prevent Macedonia from becoming a member of other international organizations, but the Veto has been a violation of that agreement. How does this not have some political favor behind it or some kind of agenda? Money? Influence? Call this illegal activity fair and democratic?​

All these claims are peripheral to the issue at hand do not try to sidetrack...Greece did everything possible to safeguard its borders and its national integrity...just like other nations did... How come you embargoed Greece? the same way we did it...The embargo was not illegal ... that is not true. Greece had a right to VETO and also other countries followed her example in support among them Israel, Italy, France, Belgium and Germany... It think that there was no "accord" there...
Agenda for what ?? we are not interested in being imperialistic... we wish for our name back it is simple and right, and democratic. let us not "blame " the Greeks for being bad wanting to "hurt" a small guy kind of argument... it will not stick...Our demands are not land or money or anything... Simple : give us back our name...

Blessings.​

To you too...

 

[Ariadni_Nefeli]

Only Soros and Bush supports FYROM - VARDARSKA BANOVINA. Without him, FYROM whould be lost, and now that Bush is leaving and cannot push the other countries to support them despite their imperialism, and since the resent attrocities that took place in elections in fyrom, the revealings that took place in the Europarliament that fyeom support its economy to money they take from international drug sellers and Soros institutions, and the nazi symbols they used in their imperialistic and invasion dreams they protested out in the open, and the problems they tried to cause to Putin with Turkey, because he signed the oil and gas pipes with Greece, no ones wants anything to do with fyrom.

They are schismatic, heretics and have made an unholly alliance with Turks!

 

[Ariadni_Nefeli]

A very interesting article from antiwar.com. I will provide all the links when I reach the post limit that is required in order to post links.



[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]THE SOROS CONNECTION[/FONT]

[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]T[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]he make-believe country of Macedonia is a Yugoslavia in miniature: with all the built-in problems of the latter even more deeply embedded in its origins. Its first President, Kiro Gligorov, was a longtime Communist bureaucrat who served under Tito and, like Milosevic, made the transition to the post-Communist political scene. Unlike old Slobo, however, Gligorov obtained the invaluable support of billionaire speculator and international do-gooder Geroge Soros, who literally bailed out Fyrom with a generous loan and became the country's de facto ambassador-at-large, lobbying for international recognition in the face of an embargo declared by Greece. The Greeks, it seems, feel threatened by the country's very name, Macedonia, which is the same as Greece's northern province, and some aspects of the Macedonian constitution, couched as it is in irredentist language: when the Macedonian government published a textbook showing a map of "Greater Macedonia," including large chunks of Greece, Athens was not amused. In a [January 23]1995 New Yorker profile of Soros, the special relationship between Soros and the Macedonian model of "multiculturalism" was explored:[/FONT]

[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]"Nowhere has Soros put more energy and money into bolstering a government than in Fyrom. "George is the savior of Macedonia," his friend Morton Abramowitz declared. And the Scopje representative in Washington, Ljubica Acevska, says of two separate Soros loans of twenty five million dollars, 'People found it difficult to believe. The opposition said, 'A country does not help you- why would an individual help you?' Remember, twenty-five million dollars in Macedonia is like billions here... the fact that Soros did it helped the government a great deal.'" [/FONT]

 

[Philothei]

And they say Macedonians are nationalist...This nonsense is what keeps the issue at hand a stand still. The Romans called this territory Macedonia, and more maps than you can shake a stick at prove that. I was in Rome and saw many of them, iron clad on the brick walls of ancient buildings.

there is no such a thing as "independent" Macedonia... They were hellenes. all historicity points to that...Language, ethos, religion. They were not seperate...or every village according to your thought should be a "separate" nation... You are seperatists Slavs who think that by adopting our identity you will prove that the maps seperating Macedonia will get you to 'liberate' the rest of Macedonia with Thessaloniki your capital....

We know your plans and what you are up to....

[

www.exploringmacedonia.com
And many Macedonians were killed by Bulgarians during WWII. They have no claim on the people anymore, and the language here has been official longer

The Only Macedonia which is Greek is beautiful... Your country Skopja is beautiful too.. no one is going to deny that... I do not know why this was an issue to you??

than Greek.

Sorry you have such an ignorant view

.

The only ignorant view is the one you have about history and Greek civilization... You keep insisting that Macedonia was not Greek...while there is no evidence for otherwise...You are slavs and speak slavic and they were Greek and spoke and wrote Greek.... period....Prove your language is the language of Alexander the Great other than saying that they were speaking a dilect... It was not your language they were speaking though... it was Greek!!

Blessings.[/QUOTE]

 

[Philothei]

And they say Macedonians are nationalist...This nonsense is what keeps the issue at hand a stand still. The Romans called this territory Macedonia, and more maps than you can shake a stick at prove that. I was in Rome and saw many of them, iron clad on the brick walls of ancient buildings.

there is no such a thing as "independent" Macedonia... They were hellenes. all historicity points to that...Language, ethos, religion. They were not seperate...or every village according to your thought should be a "separate" nation... You are seperatists Slavs who think that by adopting our identity you will prove that the maps seperating Macedonia will get you to 'liberate' the rest of Macedonia with Thessaloniki your capital....

We know your plans and what you are up to....

[

www.exploringmacedonia.com
And many Macedonians were killed by Bulgarians during WWII. They have no claim on the people anymore, and the language here has been official longer

The Only Macedonia which is Greek is beautiful... Your country Skopja is beautiful too.. no one is going to deny that... I do not know why this was an issue to you??

than Greek.

Sorry you have such an ignorant view

.

The only ignorant view is the one you have about history and Greek civilization... You keep insisting that Macedonia was not Greek...while there is no evidence for otherwise...You are slavs and speak slavic and they were Greek and spoke and wrote Greek.... period....Prove your language is the language of Alexander the Great other than saying that they were speaking a dilect... It was not your language they were speaking though... it was Greek!!

Blessings.[/quote]

 

[Philothei]

How can you NOT know the number of ethnic minorities in your own country? Don't you take census data? And, as for the treatment of what you refer to as the "Macedonian Slavs", why was there report--80 pages of it on their mis-treatment by the Helsinki Watch in 1994?

http://www.hrw.org/reports/pdfs/g/greece/greece945.pdf

oh well, what is the point again?

They came to the following conclusion:

• "Although ethnic Macedonians in northern Greece make up large minority with their own language and culture, their internationally recognized human rights and even their existence are vigorously denied by the Greek government. Free expression is restricted; several Macedonians have been persecuted and convicted for their peaceful expression of their views. Moreover, ethnic Macedonians are discriminated against by the government's failure to permit the teaching of the Macedonian language. And ethnic Macedonians, particularly rights activists, are harassed by the government - followed and threatened by the security forces - and subjected to economic and social pressure resulting from this harassment. All of these actions have led to a marked climate of fear in which a large number of ethnic Macedonians are reluctant to assert their Macedonian identity or to express their views openly. Ultimately, the government is pursuing every avenue to deny the Macedonians of Greece their ethnic identity."

Where is the "misstreatment" you claim??
We never supressed any minority with regards to their language and culture... Since you say you went to Greece did you see anyone telling you they cannot speak "vlach" as they call it? Even Greeks speak it... No one saying "do not speak" it...I never saw anyone saying such a thing. Actually the vlach is very common in Macedonia (province). Actually they are having schools now like the Turkish minority in Thrace... Or are you going to tell me they do not either???
your minority is smaller.. and no I do not know the numbers as the 'transplant" bulgarians who come in ...claiming to be Skopjans are increasing... nice going if you pay more population to "claim" Macedonians ethinicity you can even pump out your nation to be 10 million.... Mr. Soros can help you wtih that one... too...

This is one slanted source. it would be itneresting to see them substansiate what he says though so that we can see how far they are in "manufancturing" false data and spreading rumours about our Government. what about the Fyromians burning cars and doing all kind of violent acts i Greece... You yourself admited that earlier... Is that a behaviour of a neighbour ???

I am yet to see proof that will change...Including this thread...The attrocities of the Greek government on the Macedonian minority are astounding. I have spoke with many who, with difficulty, visit family in Northern Greece and I hear the same. I'm sorry for you on the other side of the pond, because it's a bit different for those who are here. Help Macedonia with bribe and "support" while continuing to block stability in the region?? That's just sad.

What atrocities? What about the atrocities of the thugs communist era slavo-macedonians who entered our country and killed so many of Greeks during the civil war??? Are we forgeting something here? We send those back to their country and now they come to claim land?? Funny how the powers to be forgot who fought the Nazi and the communists isn't it?? Now suddenly you ended up head up...

You are contradicting yourself again first you say there are atrocities... to give a bad picture and make people think you are saying something big... and then you are saying they have difficulty in "seeing" relatives... What is it? do not make a claim and then drop it....
No one is against stabilization. We will not sacrifice our national identity to a "phony" claim as such... that we 'do not care for the region". You are the ones using our name and because of your false identity rights you cause all this to yourselves. We only want our name back. I trust that people can judge for themselves without having to resort to emotionalism as that "it is sad"...
Even you really believe that you are sad you should look and examine yourself and ask youself if you trully show respect to others, their history, civilizaiton and country and its people....
Blessings.[/quote]

 

[Dorothea]

FYROM put these propaganda about us yesterday.... the American govnt't politely "disaproved" ....big deal...

Making fun of our president and ridiculing our flag... While it is proven they were hitler's collaborators....

:o That's terrible!

Btw, I've seen this abbreviation, but I've never figured out what it means. What does IIRC stand for???

 

[Dorothea]

I just received this letter in my email account ....






Beloved Brothers and Sisters in the Lord,

A few days ago we were called to celebrate the 187th anniversary of the Independence of our motherland Greece from the Ottoman Empire's 400 year bondage of slavery. We paid homage to the millions of our ancestors who sacrificed their lives so that today we can enjoy the most precious gift of all that is FREEDOM. Greece, a most faithful ally of the United States, is a great contributor to humanity and a stabilizing force in the European continent and most specifically in the Balkans. Yet FYROM (Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia), during the last 17 years, has engaged herself in a campaign which threatens to destabilize the area by claiming rights over the name Macedonia and utilizing symbols and names which, for thousands of years, have been Greek. In a few days in Bucharest, the NATO allies will meet to decide if FYROM will be extended an invitation for membership. Greece's position has been clear. If there is no solution regarding FYROM's name, there will be no invitation on the part of Greece which is equivalent to a VETO. The attached letter to the Secretary of State Condoleeza Rice is self explanatory. We urge all of you to send this letter under your name to her so that she will understand that the Greek-American populace is united behind the sovereign rights of our motherland Greece. Let us, as Orthodox Christians, stand together and persevere with faith and love, for the protection of our brothers and sisters and their homeland.

With Love in Christ,
XMetropolitan Gerasimos of San Francisco

Wonderful! I met Met. Gerasimos when he visited the church in Spokane where we used to live about a year or so ago.

 

[Dorothea]

No, it is just that I am very, very, very tired of ethnic Orthodox in this country and the way they shove their ethnicity down the throats of converts and often treat us converts as second class citizens because we are not Greek, Russian, Ukranian, Lebanese, Serbian, etc.

I'm sorry you feel that way, but I am very proud of my Greek heritage. I have fond memories of my yiayia and papou and my thea and cousins that live there. It's party of my blood and family.

 

[Thekla]

A very interesting article from antiwar.com. I will provide all the links when I reach the post limit that is required in order to post links.



[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]THE SOROS CONNECTION[/FONT]

[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]T[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]he make-believe country of Macedonia is a Yugoslavia in miniature: with all the built-in problems of the latter even more deeply embedded in its origins. Its first President, Kiro Gligorov, was a longtime Communist bureaucrat who served under Tito and, like Milosevic, made the transition to the post-Communist political scene. Unlike old Slobo, however, Gligorov obtained the invaluable support of billionaire speculator and international do-gooder Geroge Soros, who literally bailed out Fyrom with a generous loan and became the country's de facto ambassador-at-large, lobbying for international recognition in the face of an embargo declared by Greece. The Greeks, it seems, feel threatened by the country's very name, Macedonia, which is the same as Greece's northern province, and some aspects of the Macedonian constitution, couched as it is in irredentist language: when the Macedonian government published a textbook showing a map of "Greater Macedonia," including large chunks of Greece, Athens was not amused. In a [January 23]1995 New Yorker profile of Soros, the special relationship between Soros and the Macedonian model of "multiculturalism" was explored:[/FONT]

[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]"Nowhere has Soros put more energy and money into bolstering a government than in Fyrom. "George is the savior of Macedonia," his friend Morton Abramowitz declared. And the Scopje representative in Washington, Ljubica Acevska, says of two separate Soros loans of twenty five million dollars, 'People found it difficult to believe. The opposition said, 'A country does not help you- why would an individual help you?' Remember, twenty-five million dollars in Macedonia is like billions here... the fact that Soros did it helped the government a great deal.'" [/FONT]

(this should go in the "Everything ... Capitalism" thread)

 

[Dorothea]

In the end, what does it matter? Is this really something worth fighting over? Last I checked, both Philothei and Thekla and all of the other Greeks on this forum live in the United States. While you might have Greek heritage, you are now Americans. I guess that is what gets me most about the ethnic Orthodox in this country. They call them selves such and such a nationality, when the fact is they are Americans. They let their ethnicity divide the church instead of uniting the American Church and letting the church slowly begin the process of forming its own identity. And that is the heart of the issue why I take such offense to the Greeks, Lebanese, Russians, Ukranians, Serbs etc and the way they treat the church and the non-ethnic Orthodox in this country.

I suppose that's the experiences you've had, Michael. I haven't felt that way in any of the OC's I've attended, whether they were Greek or Antiochian and the one OCA I attended. I felt welcome in all of them.

 

[Dorothea]

I think that we should allow this thread to be about the Skopje/Macedonia issue not "how friendly ethnic Orthdoox parishes are in America" that is a different issue...Anyone wish to "wine" about that issue can start up their own thread...Thanks. No offense but I am not conserned of how "sympathetic" or not everone feels about our Churches that is a different issue.

Philothei

Sorry for my adding to that discussion, Philothei. Carry on.

 

[Philothei]

Yes, Dorothea thanks for your input I want to mention also that this thread is not for Church debate but the issue of Macedonia. It is an ethnic problem of the country of Greece and as such it has nothing to do with the Church that although it supports that effort and endorses it (the Greek Church of Greece specially the Archbishop Anthimos of Thessaloniki) it has nothing to do with the GOA. GOA supports the Church of FYROM in the STates and has accomodated some faithful under their aspis. STill this thread has nothing to do with this issue I would prefer that we do not "bring up" issues of such nature.



Thank you.

P.S. If anyone wished they can open a thread for that topic.

 

[Ariadni_Nefeli]

A very interesting article from antiwar.com. I will provide all the links when I reach the post limit that is required in order to post links.



[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]THE SOROS CONNECTION[/FONT]

[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]T[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]he make-believe country of Macedonia is a Yugoslavia in miniature: with all the built-in problems of the latter even more deeply embedded in its origins. Its first President, Kiro Gligorov, was a longtime Communist bureaucrat who served under Tito and, like Milosevic, made the transition to the post-Communist political scene. Unlike old Slobo, however, Gligorov obtained the invaluable support of billionaire speculator and international do-gooder Geroge Soros, who literally bailed out Fyrom with a generous loan and became the country's de facto ambassador-at-large, lobbying for international recognition in the face of an embargo declared by Greece. The Greeks, it seems, feel threatened by the country's very name, Macedonia, which is the same as Greece's northern province, and some aspects of the Macedonian constitution, couched as it is in irredentist language: when the Macedonian government published a textbook showing a map of "Greater Macedonia," including large chunks of Greece, Athens was not amused. In a [January 23]1995 New Yorker profile of Soros, the special relationship between Soros and the Macedonian model of "multiculturalism" was explored:[/FONT]

[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]"Nowhere has Soros put more energy and money into bolstering a government than in Fyrom. "George is the savior of Macedonia," his friend Morton Abramowitz declared. And the Scopje representative in Washington, Ljubica Acevska, says of two separate Soros loans of twenty five million dollars, 'People found it difficult to believe. The opposition said, 'A country does not help you- why would an individual help you?' Remember, twenty-five million dollars in Macedonia is like billions here... the fact that Soros did it helped the government a great deal.'" [/FONT]

I continue with the very revealing article from Justin Raimondo of Antiwar:

[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]T[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]he Macedonian branch of the omnipresent Soros-sponsored "Open Society Institute" became the ideological nerve center of the Gligorov government, and Soros proclaimed in public that he would go to Macedonia if necessary and personally campaign for the President to ensure his reelection. To Soros, Macedonia – a completely made-up nation, without a history or a real cultural basis – was the ideal vessel in which to pour his dreams of the perfect model of modern multi-culturalism. Seeking to explain why Soros championed the Macedonian cause against the Greeks, the New Yorker noted:[/FONT]

[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]"In the good-guy, bad-guy formulation to which Soros is so partial, the Greeks became the bad guys. He did not go to Greece to get the Greek view. In his few hours with Gligorov, he became persuaded, as he often insisted since, that Macedonia is the only multi-ethnic state left in the Balkans with a government devoted to pluralism and democratic principles- a view contested by many ethnic Albanians, Macedonia's largest minority, who charge that Gligorov's actions belie his words, and that they are discriminated against in schooling, employment, and political representation." [/FONT]

 

[Ariadni_Nefeli]

This is the real face of the fyromians! Brainwashed and trained to hate Greece, believe that they are ''macedonians'', imprisoning archbishops, being schismatics, allies of Bush and Turkey now, allies of the Nazi then, Soros proxies, extremists and imperialists who use a name dispute as an excuse to steal a history, name and heritage that does not belong to them, in order to fullfil their real plans: To invade to Northern Greece with the alliance of Turkey and the help of Bush (despite the fact, the US Congress fully supports Greece to the issue) in order to take the land of Northern Greece, a land rich in OIL and MINERALS (gold, silver, Uranium and many others), and a valuable geopolitical and geostratigical importance in the rich trade and sea road of the port of Thessaloniki!

 

[Ariadni_Nefeli]

:o That's terrible!

Btw, I've seen this abbreviation, but I've never figured out what it means. What does IIRC stand for???

The Greek flag with the swastiga that the scopians desecrated writes ''f*cking pigs - the end is coming - Cyprus is province of scopjia''

My the Lord save us from these fyromian lunatics!