Lord's Supper - Wine or Grape Juice?

[Bible Highlighter]

Yes, the 18th, or First Fruits Sunday, was not the end of the 7 days of the feast.

I agree with you. I am back to my original view again. Christ ascended to the Father on Sunday the 18th. This was to finish our plan of redemption for us by Him becoming our Heavenly High Priest. For He entered the temple by His blood and became the mediator between God the Father and man.

The day Christ died was a Passover on the 14th and the 17th is a day of rest (Saturday) and the 18th begins a new week (Sunday). It seems to match up very nicely.

 

[1stcenturylady]

Regarding Matthew 28:1 I just looked up how William Tyndale translated it. This is what he wrote:

The sabbath day at even which dawneth the morrow after the sabbath, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary came to the sepulchre.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

No, I'm saying I choose to use a lexicon to get a more accurate account of the meaning. And, truth be told, in the case of the wedding, the wine steward's response makes it pretty clear.

Lexicon's are not inspired by God. They are only as good as what the context says. However, one thing people do not do when they read their Bible today is check to see if lines up with Morality or God's goodness. What I mean by that is that most people know alcohol is a destructive drug and it brings more hurt in this world than it does any kind of good. This is not a debatable but is simply the truth.

 

[1stcenturylady]

I can see both my old view and my new view as being true from both perspectives.

My old view (from the thread link I gave you) is potentially flawed because of the 7 day unleavened week celebration with the 1st day and the 7th day both being High Sabbaths. For if we were to count the 14th to the 21st, we would get 8 days and not 7; And the 14th was not considered an Holy Convocation or High Sabbath.

In my newly discovered view on this topic (that I still need to study):

God tells me in His Word (the following):

1 Corinthians 15:20 says,
"But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept."

Revelation 1:5 (ISV) says,
"and from Jesus the Messiah, the witness, the faithful one, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth. To the one who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood"

Christ ascended to the Father on Sunday. This was to finish our plan of redemption for us by Him becoming our Heavenly High Priest. For He entered the temple by His blood and became the mediator between God the Father and man. If this new view is true, then Sunday would be the 19th. 9 is the number for fruit bearing. So Christ's ascension to the Father (after telling Mary not to touch Him) was a way of helping us to be born again through Him so we can bear much fruit by the Spirit.

On the other hand, I do see my old view as still having merit. The day Christ died was a Passover and the 17th is a day of rest and the 18th begins a new week. It seems to match up very nicely. Except, there is the understanding of the 7 day unleavened celebration involving the holy days that needs to be reconciled.

I'm really confused as to what the significance is about the 21st. As far as I see in scripture, nothing happened on the 21st that month to warrant writing about.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

This is what I said before:


Nissan 13 - Tuesday.
Nissan 13/14 (eve) Tuesday night - Passover Seder meal
Nissan 14 - Wed. Crucifixion/preparation day for High Sabbath feast
Nissan 14/15 (eve) #1 eve
Nissan 15 - Thurs. Feast of Unleavened Bread. #1 day (High Sabbath)
Nissan 15/16 (eve) #2 eve
Nissan 16 - Fri - #2 day
Nissan 16/17 (eve) start of Sabbath #3 eve
Nissan 17 weekly Sabbath #3 day
Nissan 17/18 1st day of the week begins - Resurrection

I am staying the same for the first dates, but have changed my mind about the latter. I have to agree He rose on the 17th, not the 18th. Notice, the 15th is the High Sabbath, the first day of the feast of Unleavened bread.

Yes, I agree with this timeline.
I think the only small little point we differ on is that the Jew's were celebrating the Passover at the end of the 14th when they should have celebrated it during the beginning of the 14th with Jesus.

 

[Hank77]

The first day of unleavened bread is the 15th, but because Passover is just the day before, they combine them, making the Passover the "first" day.

Good night, my friend.

Consider these verses. Is the Passover a day, two days, a week, or is the passover the sacrifice of the lamb, which then they were commanded to eat, leaving nothing for the morrow? Think about that in relationship to Jesus being the Lamb of God sacrificed. He is the Passover.

Exo 12:21 Then Moses called for all the elders of Israel, and said unto them, Draw out and take you a lamb according to your families, and kill the passover.
....
Exo 12:26 And it shall come to pass, when your children shall say unto you, What mean ye by this service?
Exo 12:27 That ye shall say, It is the sacrifice of the LORD'S passover, who passed over the houses of the children of Israel in Egypt, when he smote the Egyptians, and delivered our houses. And the people bowed the head and worshipped.

 

[Hank77]

It is considered to be grapes that He meant by the fruit of the vine.

When you can explain where they would have gotten it from that would help your argument. Until then you are arguing from a position of silence.

 

[Christie insb]

I believe many have a romanticism with alcohol; And because of this, they are not able to see that Jesus made freshly squeezed grape juice and see that the disciples used grape juice during the Passover.

This is an American tradition, not a Biblical one. European Christians drink alcohol. I am kind of ambivalent here because I am really sure it was fermented wine, not grape juice, that was used in the Last Supper. However my personal relationship with alcohol is such that I would much prefer to drink grape juice. The whole reason you want to put new wine into new wine skins is because it ferments.

 

[1stcenturylady]

Consider these verses. Is the Passover a day, two days, a week, or is the passover the sacrifice of the lamb, which then they were commanded to eat, leaving nothing for the morrow? Think about that in relationship to Jesus being the Lamb of God sacrificed. He is the Passover.

Exo 12:21 Then Moses called for all the elders of Israel, and said unto them, Draw out and take you a lamb according to your families, and kill the passover.
....
Exo 12:26 And it shall come to pass, when your children shall say unto you, What mean ye by this service?
Exo 12:27 That ye shall say, It is the sacrifice of the LORD'S passover, who passed over the houses of the children of Israel in Egypt, when he smote the Egyptians, and delivered our houses. And the people bowed the head and worshipped.

People generalize and don't get too technical. Some call it Passover Week and don't even mention the feast of Unleavened Bread and First Fruits. What Jason and I are doing is trying to figure out and determine the technical. This has been great and we are both learning new things. God always honors our seeking truth, and hates the prideful who are closed minded. I don't think anyone on this thread is closed minded, and I've enjoyed this thread. I know I get soooooo excited when I learn new things and I'm 70!

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I'm really confused as to what the significance is about the 21st. As far as I see in scripture, nothing happened on the 21st that month to warrant writing about.

I am leaning back towards my old position again. My new position does not feel right. All the figurative types or parallels are off. I am beginning to think the Passover was the Holy Convocation and the 1st Day of Unleavened Bread again (Which fits the spiritual types that we both like). Reading the following article again that you can read at the following link (has been very helpful for me).

Passover is a Feast and an Holy Convocation.

I cannot believe I forgot what the article said. It gives lots of clarity. I would encourage you to read it because it fits your view on the Passion Timeline for the most part.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

This is an American tradition, not a Biblical one. European Christians drink alcohol. I am kind of ambivalent here because I am really sure it was fermented wine, not grape juice, that was used in the Last Supper. However my personal relationship with alcohol is such that I would much prefer to drink grape juice. The whole reason you want to put new wine into new wine skins is because it ferments.

The Jews bought and carried wine in leather pouches in a fully fermented state and then when they chose to drink it, they would dilute it with water. Only barbarians would drink undiluted fully fermented wine back in those days.

 

[Christie insb]

The Jews bought and carried wine in leather pouches in a fully fermented state and then when they chose to drink it, they would dilute it with water. Only barbarians would drink undiluted fully fermented wine back in those days.

Source? I am not opposed to this idea. Except that the purpose of drinking alcoholic beverages was partly to keep from getting water-borne illnesses, and I don't know that the wine would be sufficient to kill bacteria. Anyway I know that currently children or others may drink diluted wine at Passover so it kind of fits what I know but that doesn't really indicate that the Last Supper used unfermented grape juice (taking diluted wine and unfermented grape juice separately).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Source? I am not opposed to this idea. Except that the purpose of drinking alcoholic beverages was partly to keep from getting water-borne illnesses, and I don't know that the wine would be sufficient to kill bacteria. Anyway I know that currently children or others may drink diluted wine at Passover so it kind of fits what I know but that doesn't really indicate that the Last Supper used unfermented grape juice (taking diluted wine and unfermented grape juice separately).

There are...

Three Types of Wine in the Bible:

Among the saints and various cultures, wine in Biblical Times was Mixed with Water.

This would be one of the three types of wine mentioned in the Bible.

#1. Fermented Wine (Strong in alcoholic content).
This type of wine was usually drunk by barbarians. There are Scriptural warnings to the OT saint against partaking of this particular wine (See my next post). Israelites could buy this type of wine to store and use as medicine, but they forbidden in drinking it in an undiluted state for social reasons.
#2. Fermented Wine Diluted by Water (Low in alcoholic content).
This type of wine that was commonly drank by the OT saint (See verses within this post below).
#3. Unfermented Wine or Freshly Squeezed Grape Juice (A non intoxicating beverage).
This was the type of wine made by Jesus.​

I believe the wine during Bible times that the Old Testament saints drank was Wine Type #2, whereby it was a wine mixed with water and was lower in alcoholic content (Which was the wine seen at the Wedding of Cana before Christ made Wine Type #3, which was non intoxicating grape juice or unfermented wine); In other words, the wines commonly drank by the OT saints was not like the strong wines of today; And Jesus made grape juice that made was considered the “best wine.” Wines of today (By wine tasters) are considered the best by their taste and not how much they can intoxicate you.

Wine mixed (diluted) with Water Verses:

Revelation 14:10 says,
“The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb”
(Contrast this with Psalms 75:8)

1 Timothy 5:23 says,
"Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities."

Proverbs 9:2 (NIV) says,
"She has prepared her meat and mixed her wine; she has also set her table."

Proverbs 23:31 - Do not look at wine when it is red.

John 19:34 - Blood and water mingled together from Christ's side; And Scripture essentially says the wine in the Lord's supper is representative of Jesus's blood (See Matthew 26:27-29).

Isaiah 1:22 CJB
“Your silver is no longer pure, your wine is watered down.”

Pure silver, which would be too soft to be durable, is mixed with 5-20% copper in an alloy known as sterling silver.

How silver is made - material, making, history, used, processing, industry

If one were to take note: One has to mix copper in silver in order for it to be durable so as to be used. Just as one must use water in their mixture of wine to drink it more safely like an Israelite.

So the idea here is that the silver (mixed with copper) they use has become so dross (or watered down it is then cheap. Just as the wine (mixed with water) is diluted even more whereby it is cheap wine to the Israelite.

Wine could be carried in an undiluted state within leather skin like bottles and then later mixed with water for use. Timothy was told to use a little wine in his water because of the infirmities in his stomach. Paul was telling him to use Biblical wine so as to resolve a medical issue.

Extra Biblical Sources on how wine was mixed with water:

2 Maccabees 15:39, Talmud, and Justin Martyr, etc.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

21 Warnings That Speak Against The Alcoholic Beverage Itself.
(That is not specifically or exclusively talking about drunkenness)

Passages For the Old Testament Saint:

(Before the Cross: The OT Saint did not have a liberty in Christ to drink intoxicating beverages)
(Just as they did not have a liberty in Christ to eat unclean animals)

1) Deuteronomy 29:5-6
- God gave no grape juice to Israel nor did they have intoxicating drink in the wilderness.
(The reason for this action was taken so as to show how they knew God).

2) Deuteronomy 32:33
- Enemy's wine is like the poison of serpents vs. Israelite's pure blood of the grape (verse 14).

3) 1 Samuel 1:14-15
- Accused, Hannah said she drank no wine.

4) Proverbs 4:17
- Alcoholic drink is called the wine of violence.

5) Proverbs 20:1
- Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging.

6) Proverbs 23:31
- God instructs not to look at intoxicating drinks.

7) Proverbs 23:32
- Alcoholic drinks bite like a serpent, sting like an adder.

8) Proverbs 23:35
- Alcohol makes the drinker insensitive to pain so he does not perceive it as a warning.
(It also says Alcohol is habit forming).

9) Proverbs 31:4-5
- Kings, Princes, and others who rule and judge must not drink alcohol. Alcohol perverts good judgment.

10) Ecclesiastes 2:3
- The king tried everything, including intoxicating drink, to see if it satisfied. It did not.
(c.f. Ecclesiastes 12:8)

11) Ecclesiastes 10:17
- A land is blessed when its leaders do not drink.

12) Isaiah 5:22
- There is a woe unto them who mix strong drinks.

13) Jeremiah 35:2-14
- The Rechabites drank no grape juice or intoxicating wine and were blessed.

14) Daniel 1:5-17
- Daniel refused the king’s intoxicating wine and was blessed for it along with his abstaining friends.

15) Hosea 4:11
- Intoxicating wine seduces the heart.


Passages For the New Testament Saint:

(After the Cross: NT Saints (Not All) have a liberty in Christ to drink alcohol soberly & privately)
(Just as they have a liberty in Christ to eat unclean animals)
(Those whose conscience condemns them in drinking are not to drink)
(Those who are leaders in the church are not to drink alcohol)


16) Romans 14:21
- Do not do anything (Including drinking intoxicating beverages) to make your brother to stumble.

17) 1 Timothy 3:2-3
- Bishops (elders) are to be temperate, sober, and not near any wine.

18) 1 Timothy 3:8
- Deacons are to be worthy of respect and not drinkers.

19) 1 Timothy 3:11
- Deacons’ wives are to be temperate and sober.

20) Titus 1:7-8
- A bishop is not to be given to wine.

21) Titus 2:2-3
- The older men and older women of the church are to be temperate and not addicted to wine.


Source Used:
75 Bible References on Drinking Alcohol
(Please take note that I only agree with the Scripture that they posted; This does not mean I am in agreement with the author's other beliefs on other topics).

 

[mmksparbud]

Then you should know he said "bread" (arton in Greek) and "fruit of the vine" (which could be either grape juice OR wine). It was NOT a seder...you are wrong.

Mat_26:17 Now the first day of the feast of unleavened bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare for thee to eat the passover?
Mat_26:18 And he said, Go into the city to such a man, and say unto him, The Master saith, My time is at hand; I will keep the passover at thy house with my disciples.
Mat_26:19 And the disciples did as Jesus had appointed them; and they made ready the passover.
Mar_14:12 And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover?
Mar_14:14 And wheresoever he shall go in, say ye to the goodman of the house, The Master saith, Where is the guestchamber, where I shall eat the passover with my disciples?
Mar_14:16 And his disciples went forth, and came into the city, and found as he had said unto them: and they made ready the passover.
Luk_22:7 Then came the day of unleavened bread, when the passover must be killed.
Luk_22:8 And he sent Peter and John, saying, Go and prepare us the passover, that we may eat.
Luk_22:11 And ye shall say unto the goodman of the house, The Master saith unto thee, Where is the guestchamber, where I shall eat the passover with my disciples?
Luk_22:13 And they went, and found as he had said unto them: and they made ready the passover.
Luk_22:15 And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer:
Joh_2:13 And the Jews' passover was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem,
Joh_2:23 Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did.
Joh_6:4 And the passover, a feast of the Jews, was nigh.
Joh_11:55 And the Jews' passover was nigh at hand: and many went out of the country up to Jerusalem before the passover, to purify themselves.
Joh_13:1 Now before the feast of the passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end.
Joh_18:28 Then led they Jesus from Caiaphas unto the hall of judgment: and it was early; and they themselves went not into the judgment hall, lest they should be defiled; but that they might eat the passover.
Joh_18:39 But ye have a custom, that I should release unto you one at the passover: will ye therefore that I release unto you the King of the Jews?
Joh_19:14 And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King!

ἄρτος
artos
Thayer Definition:
1) food composed of flour mixed with water and baked
1a) the Israelites made it in the form of an oblong or round cake, as thick as one’s thumb, and as large as a plate or platter hence it was not to be cut but broken
1b) loaves were consecrated to the Lord
1c) of the bread used at the love-feasts and at the Lord’s Table
2) food of any kind
Part of Speech: noun masculine
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G142
Citing in TDNT: 1:477, 80

Artos in Ancient Greek meant "cake" or "loaf of wheat-bread", but in Modern Greek now only refers to bread used in church. The earliest form of the word is the Mycenaean Greek a-to, written in Linear b syllabic script.
Artos : definition of Artos and synonyms of Artos (English)

 

[mmksparbud]

When you can explain where they would have gotten it from that would help your argument. Until then you are arguing from a position of silence.

?? Gotten what from? The grapes? Or that fruit of the vine was considered to be grapes??

 

[Christie insb]

There are...

Three Types of Wine in the Bible:

Oh nevermind.

 

[Hank77]

?? Gotten what from? The grapes? Or that fruit of the vine was considered to be grapes??

Non-fermented fruit of the vine.

 

[mmksparbud]

Non-fermented fruit of the vine.

Read post #54 on page 3 and #183 on page 10---I would post again, but it would be repetitive and bore some.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Oh nevermind.

You asked for sources and I gave them. Scripture talks about the diluting of wine and it talks about the condemnation of undiluted fully fermented wine. The Talmud, the Apocrypha, Justin Martyr, etc. also confirm the diluting of wine with water, as well. It's not a new thing.