Lord's Supper - Wine or Grape Juice?

Christie insb

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"While the wines drunk in the times depicted in the Hebrew Bible were not diluted with water, after the conquest of Palestine by Alexander the Great the Hellenistic custom of diluting wine had taken hold such that the author of 2 Maccabees speaks of diluted wine as "a more pleasant drink" and of both undiluted wine and unmixed water as "harmful" or "distasteful."[99]" Wikipedia. So I really think your interpretation of the Isaiah 1 passage is seriously off. The above Wikipedia article indicates the custom of diluting wine comes from the Greeks, and I don't think we are supposed to imitate the syncretism from other cultures. Let's not waste our time arguing with each other; we have had discussions before that were a waste of time.
 
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mmksparbud

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"While the wines drunk in the times depicted in the Hebrew Bible were not diluted with water, after the conquest of Palestine by Alexander the Great the Hellenistic custom of diluting wine had taken hold such that the author of 2 Maccabees speaks of diluted wine as "a more pleasant drink" and of both undiluted wine and unmixed water as "harmful" or "distasteful."[99]" Wikipedia. So I really think your interpretation of the Isaiah 1 passage is seriously off. The above Wikipedia article indicates the custom of diluting wine comes from the Greeks, and I don't think we are supposed to imitate the syncretism from other cultures. Let's not waste our time arguing with each other; we have had discussions before that were a waste of time.


This from a Catholic perspective:

"The brief rite of pouring water into the wine used for consecration is very ancient. Indeed, it is believed that Our Lord himself used wine tempered with water at the Last Supper as this was the common practice among the Jews and in Mediterranean culture in general.

Some form of this is found in practically every rite of the Church both Western and Eastern, except for a group of Armenian Monophysites.

Although the water is not essential for the validity of the sacrament, the Church holds it in great importance and it must never be omitted. The Council of Trent even went so far as to excommunicate whoever denied the need for this mixture (see Canon 9, Session XXII). "
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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Mat_26:17 Now the first day of the feast of unleavened bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare for thee to eat the passover?
Mat_26:18 And he said, Go into the city to such a man, and say unto him, The Master saith, My time is at hand; I will keep the passover at thy house with my disciples.
Mat_26:19 And the disciples did as Jesus had appointed them; and they made ready the passover.
Mar_14:12 And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover?
Mar_14:14 And wheresoever he shall go in, say ye to the goodman of the house, The Master saith, Where is the guestchamber, where I shall eat the passover with my disciples?
Mar_14:16 And his disciples went forth, and came into the city, and found as he had said unto them: and they made ready the passover.
Luk_22:7 Then came the day of unleavened bread, when the passover must be killed.
Luk_22:8 And he sent Peter and John, saying, Go and prepare us the passover, that we may eat.
Luk_22:11 And ye shall say unto the goodman of the house, The Master saith unto thee, Where is the guestchamber, where I shall eat the passover with my disciples?
Luk_22:13 And they went, and found as he had said unto them: and they made ready the passover.
Luk_22:15 And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer:
Joh_2:13 And the Jews' passover was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem,
Joh_2:23 Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did.
Joh_6:4 And the passover, a feast of the Jews, was nigh.
Joh_11:55 And the Jews' passover was nigh at hand: and many went out of the country up to Jerusalem before the passover, to purify themselves.
Joh_13:1 Now before the feast of the passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end.
Joh_18:28 Then led they Jesus from Caiaphas unto the hall of judgment: and it was early; and they themselves went not into the judgment hall, lest they should be defiled; but that they might eat the passover.
Joh_18:39 But ye have a custom, that I should release unto you one at the passover: will ye therefore that I release unto you the King of the Jews?
Joh_19:14 And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King!

ἄρτος
artos
Thayer Definition:
1) food composed of flour mixed with water and baked
1a) the Israelites made it in the form of an oblong or round cake, as thick as one’s thumb, and as large as a plate or platter hence it was not to be cut but broken
1b) loaves were consecrated to the Lord
1c) of the bread used at the love-feasts and at the Lord’s Table
2) food of any kind
Part of Speech: noun masculine
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G142
Citing in TDNT: 1:477, 80

Artos in Ancient Greek meant "cake" or "loaf of wheat-bread", but in Modern Greek now only refers to bread used in church. The earliest form of the word is the Mycenaean Greek a-to, written in Linear b syllabic script.
Artos : definition of Artos and synonyms of Artos (English)

I know exactly what arton is and I know what azumos is too, do you? BTW, Matthew, Luke and Mark have Him crucified on the 15th while John on the 14th...cant be both. You figure it out...
 
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"While the wines drunk in the times depicted in the Hebrew Bible were not diluted with water, after the conquest of Palestine by Alexander the Great the Hellenistic custom of diluting wine had taken hold such that the author of 2 Maccabees speaks of diluted wine as "a more pleasant drink" and of both undiluted wine and unmixed water as "harmful" or "distasteful."[99]" Wikipedia. So I really think your interpretation of the Isaiah 1 passage is seriously off. The above Wikipedia article indicates the custom of diluting wine comes from the Greeks, and I don't think we are supposed to imitate the syncretism from other cultures. Let's not waste our time arguing with each other; we have had discussions before that were a waste of time.

If you are going to be skeptical, it does not matter what more sources I show you.

In any event, may the Lord's love shine upon you; And lets agree to disagree.

Peace be unto you.
 
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mmksparbud

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I know exactly what arton is and I know what azumos is too, do you? BTW, Matthew, Luke and Mark have Him crucified on the 15th while John on the 14th...cant be both. You figure it out...


Sure do---and I personally have not followed that date argument and at this point in time---doesn't interest me!
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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Personally I don't care about the actual date. Jesus and His disciples call the meal He is having Passover---that is good enough for me. You may call it whatever you want.

I see...yet Passover HAS an actual date...but I know, you don't care...I guess that sums you up.
 
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1stcenturylady

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I know exactly what arton is and I know what azumos is too, do you? BTW, Matthew, Luke and Mark have Him crucified on the 15th while John on the 14th...cant be both. You figure it out...

I couldn't find what you are talking about. Where does it say in the first three gospels He died on the 15th? I only know about Him dying on the 14th.
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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I couldn't find what you are talking about. Where does it say in the first three gospels He died on the 15th? I only know about Him dying on the 14th.

They have Him crucified on the 15th, AFTER the Passover on unleavened...John has it on the day of preparation on the 14th.
 
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mmksparbud

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Its too bad you don't understand what Jesus said...

And your interpretation for the following is??
Luk 22:14 And when the hour was come, he sat down, and the twelve apostles with him.
Luk 22:15 And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer:
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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And your interpretation for the following is??
Luk 22:14 And when the hour was come, he sat down, and the twelve apostles with him.
Luk 22:15 And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer:

Why, you don't care...read Luke 22:1 AND Luke 22:7
 
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1stcenturylady

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They have Him crucified on the 15th, AFTER the Passover on unleavened...John has it on the day of preparation on the 14th.

I've seen that as after the Passover meal that was at the beginning of Passover which would be on the evening of the 13th. He died later on during the daylight of Passover.
 
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Christie insb

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I've seen that as after the Passover meal that was at the beginning of Passover which would be on the evening of the 13th. He died later on during the daylight of Passover.
That makes sense. People also celebrate Passover on both the first and the second day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread. I should look for a reference because I know this happens but I may not be explaining it right.

This is an argument I am not passionate about. What I don't like is the rejection of Jesus dying on Friday and rising from the dead on Sunday. The Two Sabbaths of Passover
But these are all disputable matters from my point of view, and I will try to remember that love is more important than these details. 2 Timothy 2:24ff.
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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I've seen that as after the Passover meal that was at the beginning of Passover which would be on the evening of the 13th. He died later on during the daylight of Passover.

Yes that is true in John, but if you read the others it seems to say it was on unleavened.
 
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