Lord's Supper - Wine or Grape Juice?

[Bible Highlighter]

So what date would that be? They were to kill and eat the same day.

Did you read #238? What I was referring to was 3 pm on Saturday. I proved it for you.

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[Yeshua HaDerekh]

So you're saying that 1 Corinthians 8 does not matter? I would have to disagree, because it all does matter. We know, for example, that mammon is an idol. Atheist acquaintances and unbelieving business associates of ours invite us to their banquets to celebrate mammon if, say, they got a big promotion or landed a great new career. They kill the fatted cow and pig and grill us up some burgers and hotdogs to celebrate, and we eat them. We don't worship mammon, just because our hosts have no other god but mammon, but we worship God alone. We eat the burger because we're hungry and it tastes good. In terms of our relationship to God, as the Apostle Paul states "we are no worse if we do not eat, and no better if we do."

In this respect, we really do eat food offered to an idol sometimes, without even realizing it or caring in the least bit, because we know that doing so doesn't speak to our Communion with God, as stated in 1 Corinthians 8.

Argue with the Orthodox church, not me.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

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[truefiction1]

Argue with the Orthodox church, not me.

I updated my last post for greater clarification. I've no argument with the Orthodox Church. My argument is with anyone who thinks that an idol is just a false god depicted as an engraved image that has food offerings ritualistically offered to it in thanksgiving and then eaten by the pagan worshipers. Idols are at large today, especially in American society, although they've become invisible to the spiritually un-discerned, and Orthodox Christians often eat of the food offerings to these idols, with impunity: because we know that idols aren't God and food is just food. (1 Corinthians 8).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

That's not nice. Now you want me to look up all your posts?

But I can, and just showed you. Matthew 28:1. YLT says, And on the eve of the sabbaths, at the dawn, toward the first of the sabbaths, came Mary the Magdalene, and the other Mary, to see the sepulchre,

But it is better understandably translated from the interlinear

But late of (the) sabbaths, [that would be afternoon] at the drawing on toward one of (the) sabbaths, came Mary the Magdalene and the other Mary to view the grave.

Well lookie there, I just proved Jason's theory? 3 pm in the Spring would fit! The days are still short. Yay, @Jason0047! This would also mean that Saturday was the 17th! For me that is very significant! Genesis 8:4 4 "And the ark resteth, in the seventh month, in the seventeenth day of the month, on mountains of Ararat;" Why else would God make sure this date was mentioned! In fact, I think it is the first time a date had been mentioned in scripture.

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[Ron Gurley]

Op: Answer: it does not matter.
The ordinance commanded by Jesus is the communion ritual:
“ Do this in remembrance of me.”

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Op: Answer: it does not matter.
The ordinance commanded by Jesus is the communion ritual:
“ Do this in remembrance of me.”

I believe it does matter because if the liquid was alcoholic, then it could lead future generations of believers to slip back into alcoholism. It would also mean that it is okay to admit to drinking a poison that is scientifically proven to shrink our brains even with moderate consumption.

 

[1stcenturylady]

They would eat the last remaining hours of daylight (i.e. the evening) on the 14th (Which quickly then turned into the 15th at sundown).

Again, I will be happy to take a look #238 for you. But you have to explain how 7 days of feasting fits with your view. It doesn't work because the 14th cannot be a High Sabbath. The 15th begins the High Sabbath and lasts until the 21st at evening (i.e. the end of the 21st) with 7 days. The 21st is also a High Sabbath. Please look again at the two charts I provided.

For me the 15th is the High Sabbath, and that is why they had to take Him down before it began. But still that would mean He ate the evening of the 13th which was the beginning of the 14th, not the end of it.

 

[Almost there]

I believe that the "wine" had an alcohol content of 2.73%.

Using anything with more or less is sacrilege!

 

[Almost there]

I believe it does matter because if the liquid was alcoholic, then it could lead future generations of believers to slip back into alcoholism. It would also mean that it is okay to admit to drinking a poison that is scientifically proven to shrink our brains even with moderate consumption.

Alcohol is actually good for you. But in moderation.

CONFIRMED: Science Says This Is The #1 Alcohol That Doubles Fat Loss

Brain shrinkage is also a red herring. Myths and Facts about Alcohol and Brain Damage

 

[Bible Highlighter]

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[Bible Highlighter]

Alcohol is actually good for you. But in moderation.

CONFIRMED: Science Says This Is The #1 Alcohol That Doubles Fat Loss

Brain shrinkage is also a red herring. Myths and Facts about Alcohol and Brain Damage

Actually, no. That is not true. A study in the UK had scientifically proven that this happened.

Even moderate drinking linked to a decline in brain health, finds study — Department of Psychiatry
Even moderate drinking can damage the brain, claim researchers

Also, moderate consumption of alcohol can increase a women's risk of cancer, as well.

Daily glass of wine increases a woman's cancer risk, finds study

 

[Almost there]

Actually, no. That is not true. A study in the UK had scientifically proven that this happened.

Even moderate drinking can damage the brain, claim researchers

Also, moderate consumption of alcohol can increase a women's risk of cancer, as well.

Daily glass of wine increases a woman's cancer risk, finds study

So, scientists disagree.

Kinda like coffee.

I consider drunkenness to be a sin. I consider drinking to not be.

And Jesus first miracle was turning water into fermented wine. There is no doubt and the bible even drives the point home when the wine steward, not knowing where it came from said, "Why did you save the good stuff for last?"

I don't want to spam the thread with links backing it up. They are legion. I even have a couple from authors that strongly believe people should not drink alcohol, but confess that scripture is pretty clear about Jesus first miracle, and that yes, it was "VERY GOOD WINE" and not grape juice.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

So, scientists disagree.

Kinda like coffee.

I consider drunkenness to be a sin. I consider drinking to not be.

And Jesus first miracle was turning water into fermented wine. There is no doubt and the bible even drives the point home when the wine steward, not knowing where it came from said, "Why did you save the good stuff for last?"

I don't want to spam the thread with links backing it up. They are legion. I even have a couple from authors that strongly believe people should not drink alcohol, but confess that scripture is pretty clear about Jesus first miracle, and that yes, it was "VERY GOOD WINE" and not grape juice.

And here is an older dictionary on the word "wine":

Wine (Webster's 1913 Dictionary):

1. The expressed juice of grapes, esp. when fermented; a beverage or liquor prepared from grapes by squeezing out their juice, and (usually) allowing it to ferment.
Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging, and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.
- Prov. xx. 1.
Bacchus, that first from out the purple grape
Crushed the sweet poison of misused wine.
- Milton.
2. A liquor or beverage prepared from the juice of any fruit or plant by a process similar to thatfor grape wine; as, currant wine; gooseberry wine; palm wine.

Wine | Definition of Wine by Webster's Online Dictionary​

In other words, the word "wine" did not always exclusively mean an alcoholic beverage like most think today. As for the Scientific Study: I would think that they would have more to lose than to gain by speaking out against alcohol. Most people today are in love with alcohol in some form or another, so anyone who tries to put down alcohol gets shot down quickly (i.e. shot down verbally).

 

[Almost there]

And here is an older dictionary on the word "wine":

Wine (Webster's 1913 Dictionary):
1. The expressed juice of grapes, esp. when fermented; a beverage or liquor prepared from grapes by squeezing out their juice, and (usually) allowing it to ferment.
Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging, and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.
- Prov. xx. 1.
Bacchus, that first from out the purple grape
Crushed the sweet poison of misused wine.
- Milton.
2. A liquor or beverage prepared from the juice of any fruit or plant by a process similar to thatfor grape wine; as, currant wine; gooseberry wine; palm wine.

Wine | Definition of Wine by Webster's Online Dictionary

Yeah. I'm thinking greek and hebrew, and the wine steward's response to the wine.

The people of Jesus' day were not cave men. They had been producing wine for thousands of years. They knew what they were doing and they knew how to party. This is the context one can use to interpret the wine steward's response.

They didn't bring out the "grape juice" first at weddings.

 

[1stcenturylady]

So if Christ did die on Wednesday the 15th (the day of unleavened bread), this would be symbolic of the Exodus (the escape) of the Israelites. For just as God set the Israelites free with the Passover. Christ sets us free with His death.

Here is a passage in regards to Christ setting us free with His death upon the cross:

5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin."

(Romans 6:5-7).

He that is dead in Christ (planted in the likeness of His death) is freed from sin.

This is what I said before:


Nissan 13 - Tuesday.
Nissan 13/14 (eve) Tuesday night - Passover Seder meal
Nissan 14 - Wed. Crucifixion/preparation day for High Sabbath feast
Nissan 14/15 (eve) #1 eve
Nissan 15 - Thurs. Feast of Unleavened Bread. #1 day (High Sabbath)
Nissan 15/16 (eve) #2 eve
Nissan 16 - Fri - #2 day
Nissan 16/17 (eve) start of Sabbath #3 eve
Nissan 17 weekly Sabbath #3 day
Nissan 17/18 1st day of the week begins - Resurrection

I am staying the same for the first dates, but have changed my mind about the latter. I have to agree He rose on the 17th, not the 18th. Notice, the 15th is the High Sabbath, the first day of the feast of Unleavened bread.

 

[1stcenturylady]

1st Century Lady:

Also consider the following passage, as well.

Deuteronomy 16:6-8
6 "But at the place which the LORD thy God shall choose to place his name in, there thou shalt sacrifice the passover at even, at the going down of the sun, at the season that thou camest forth out of Egypt.
7 And thou shalt roast and eat it in the place which the LORD thy God shall choose: and thou shalt turn in the morning, and go unto thy tents.
8 Six days thou shalt eat unleavened bread: and on the seventh day shall be a solemn assembly to the LORD thy God: thou shalt do no work therein."

Yes, the 18th, or First Fruits Sunday, was not the end of the 7 days of the feast.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Yeah. I'm thinking greek and hebrew, and the wine steward's response to the wine.

So we cannot trust our older English Dictionaries (That are not religiously biased) and we can trust people who say they know Biblical Hebrew and Greek (When nobody has spoken and written these languages in a thousand years)?

The people of Jesus' day were not cave men. They had been producing wine for thousands of years. They knew what they were doing and they knew how to party.

Okay. Stop right here. Nowhere did the Israelites have drinking parties like we do today. If you believe otherwise then show me Scripture.

This is the context one can use to interpret the wine steward's response.

So if the wedding guests were "well drunk" with intoxicating wine, Jesus making even more wine would have definitely contributed to their drunkenness. This would have been wrong.

They didn't bring out the "grape juice" first at weddings.

Again, you are going off your own personal biased towards alcohol. What are the fruits of alcohol today? Are they generally more good or are they generally more bad?

 

[Almost there]

So we cannot trust our older English Dictionaries (That are not religiously biased) and we can trust people who say they know Biblical Hebrew and Greek (When nobody has spoken and written these languages in a thousand years)?

No, I'm saying I choose to use a lexicon to get a more accurate account of the meaning. And, truth be told, in the case of the wedding, the wine steward's response makes it pretty clear.

 

[Almost there]

Okay. Stop right here. Nowhere did the Israelites have drinking parties like we do today. If you believe otherwise then show me Scripture.

I'm not talking about "drinking parties" I'm talking about people having a wedding party. With wine. And they ran out, and when the wine steward was offered a sample of what Jesus offered he wanted to know why they broke with tradition and saved the good stuff for last.

So if the wedding guests were "well drunk" with intoxicating wine, Jesus making even more wine would have definitely contributed to their drunkenness. This would have been wrong.

Who knows the alcohol content. And if you recall, he seemed to do it under protest. He didn't seem to approve of his mother's request.

Again, you are going off your own personal biased towards alcohol. What are the fruits of alcohol today? Are they generally more good or are they generally more bad?

Alcohol is not bad. Alcohol abuse is bad. Same with food. Obesity is hurting a lot more people than alcohol these days.

I do not have a bias towards alcohol. I actually quit drinking for a couple of years right after accepting Christ in 1981. Then I studied alcohol in the bible and realized I was being a dogmatic legalist. I say "dogmatic" because I had not actually studied it and based my beliefs on what someone told me. When I studied it, I abandoned the tea totalling, though didn't start drinking immediately. I drink very little. I believe it is a sin to get drunk. But I consider alcohol itself to be amoral, and the consumption of small quantities to be equally amoral.