Lord's Supper - Wine or Grape Juice?

[1stcenturylady]

Yes that is true in John, but if you read the others it seems to say it was on unleavened.

Passover was unleavened as well. They took all the leaven out of the house by then.

 

[Antig]

Bickering Christians So sad

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Passover was unleavened as well. They took all the leaven out of the house by then.

Chometz is removed on the 14th and is also a fast day (fast of the firstborn). Since Yeshua was firstborn, He fasted (He ate nothing from sunrise until His death on the cross).

 

[Antig]

Does it really matter if it was full strength wine or not? Really?

 

[1stcenturylady]

Chometz is removed on the 14th and is also a fast day (fast of the firstborn). Since Yeshua was firstborn, He fasted (He ate nothing from sunrise until His death on the cross).

Thanks for another word to look up! I haven't found anything about the firstborn fasting yet. I know you don't care to use scripture, but I could use your help on this one.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Thanks for another word to look up! I haven't found anything about the firstborn fasting yet. I know you don't care to use scripture, but I could use your help on this one.

I thought you were Jewish?

 

[1stcenturylady]

I thought you were Jewish?

No, but I do like to know everything Jewish!

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Thanks for another word to look up! I haven't found anything about the firstborn fasting yet. I know you don't care to use scripture, but I could use your help on this one.

Check out Exodus 13:2-15 and Luke 2:23

 

[1stcenturylady]

Check out Exodus 13:2-15 and Luke 2:23

Thanks. I read both. Okay, so now show me where it says they can't participate in the Passover meal? I saw they are holy, but nothing about fasting. Is there another verse?

Edit: I did find this passage in Matthew 9. I wonder if the disciples of John were including Jesus in the question?

14 Then the disciples of John came to Him, saying, “Why do we and the Pharisees fast often, but Your disciples do not fast?”

15 And Jesus said to them, “Can the friends of the bridegroom mourn as long as the bridegroom is with them? But the days will come when the bridegroom will be taken away from them, and then they will fast.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Thanks. I read both. Okay, so now show me where it says they can't participate in the Passover meal? I saw they are holy, but nothing about fasting. Is there another verse?

Edit: I did find this passage in Matthew 9. I wonder if the disciples of John were including Jesus in the question?

14 Then the disciples of John came to Him, saying, “Why do we and the Pharisees fast often, but Your disciples do not fast?”

15 And Jesus said to them, “Can the friends of the bridegroom mourn as long as the bridegroom is with them? But the days will come when the bridegroom will be taken away from them, and then they will fast.

not sure what you are asking...

 

[1stcenturylady]

not sure what you are asking...

You said the firstborn/Jesus would fast the Passover meal. I saw the scriptures you posted about the firstborn, but nothing about them having to fast that meal. It is the fasting element I'm curious about.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

You said the firstborn/Jesus would fast the Passover meal. I saw the scriptures you posted about the firstborn, but nothing about them having to fast that meal. It is the fasting element I'm curious about.

Oh, no, the fast is the day of the 14th from sunrise to sunset...the Pesakh seder is after sunset, so Yeshua would have already been buried. The Seudah (literally the last supper) would have been held the evening before.

 

[1stcenturylady]

Oh, no, the fast is the day of the 14th from sunrise to sunset...the Pesakh seder is after sunset, so Yeshua would have already been buried. The Seudah (literally the last supper) would have been held the evening before.

I guess I'm calling it by the wrong name. I'm talking about the meal at the beginning of the 14th, the evening of the 13th after sundown. To me, that is when the lamb is killed and roasted and eaten, before Jesus prayed in Gethsemane. I thought that was the Passover meal.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

I guess I'm calling it by the wrong name. I'm talking about the meal at the beginning of the 14th, the evening of the 13th after sundown. To me, that is when the lamb is killed and roasted and eaten, before Jesus prayed in Gethsemane. I thought that was the Passover meal.

No, the last supper was a Seudah...the lambs were killed during the day on the 14th with the seder that evening. Shabbat Shalom!

 

[1stcenturylady]

No, the last supper was a Seudah...the lambs were killed during the day on the 14th with the seder that evening. Shabbat Shalom!

I didn't know there were two different meals. I just know that the way I read the scripture is that the meal with the lamb is after sundown at the BEGINNING of the 14th, with the lambs killed at twilight. I'll have to do some more digging.

 

[Joelthe vicious]

"Wine (Yayin) is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise"
So, we can see in these passages the contrast between
"Yayin" (alcoholic wine) which is used in a negative connotation and
"Tiyrosh" (non-alcoholic sweet, new wine) which is spoken of in a
positive connotation. Most assuredly, Yeshua/Jesus would have drank of
the "sweet wine" or "Tiyrosh".

Jesus was not 'deceived' by the 'raging...mocker', but drank "the Cup", "seven vials full of the wrath of God...having seven Last Plagues filled up in them the wrath of God", "the wine ('yayin') of the wrath of God", as He was "cast into the winepress of the wrath of God" and "Bitter Place of the Olive Press"--Gethsemane.

λέγω γὰρ ὑμῖν, (ὅτι) οὐ μὴ πίω
for I say unto you, I will not drink

ἀπὸ τοῦ νῦν ἀπὸ τοῦ γενήματος τῆς ἀμπέλου
from now on of the fruit of the vine

ἕως (ὅτου) οὗ ἡ βασιλεία τοῦ Θεοῦ ἔλθῃ.
as long as it might take the Kingdom of God to come.

Καὶ . . . ἀνέπεσεν, καὶ οἱ (δώδεκα) ἀπόστολοι σὺν αὐτῷ.
And ... He sat down and the twelve apostles with him.

καὶ εἶπεν πρὸς αὐτούς Ἐπιθυμίᾳ ἐπεθύμησα
And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat

τοῦτο τὸ πάσχα φαγεῖν μεθ’ ὑμῶν πρὸ τοῦ με παθεῖν·
this passover with you before I suffer.

λέγω γὰρ ὑμῖν ὅτι οὐκέτι οὐ μὴ φάγω αὐτὸ (ἐξ αὐτοῦ)
For I say unto you I will not anymore eat thereof

ἕως ὅτου πληρωθῇ ἐν τῇ βασιλείᾳ τοῦ Θεοῦ.
until it is fulfilled in the Kingdom of God.

καὶ δεξάμενος (τὸ) ποτήριον εὐχαριστήσας εἶπεν
And he took the cup and gave thanks and said,

Λάβετε τοῦτο καὶ διαμερίσατε (ἑαυτοῖς) εἰς ἑαυτούς·
Take ye this and divide it among yourselves:

λέγω γὰρ ὑμῖν, (ὅτι) οὐ μὴ πίω
for I say unto you, I will not drink

ἀπὸ τοῦ νῦν ἀπὸ τοῦ γενήματος τῆς ἀμπέλου
from now on of the fruit of the vine

ἕως (ὅτου) οὗ ἡ βασιλεία τοῦ Θεοῦ ἔλθῃ.
as long as it might take the Kingdom of God to come.

καὶ λαβὼν ἄρτον εὐχαριστήσας ἔκλασεν
And he took bread and gave thanks and brake it

καὶ ἔδωκεν αὐτοῖς λέγων Τοῦτό ἐστιν τὸ σῶμά μου τὸ ὑπὲρ ὑμῶν
and gave unto them, saying, This is the Body of Mine

διδόμενον· τοῦτο ποιεῖτε εἰς τὴν ἐμὴν ἀνάμνησιν.
given in behalf of you, this do in remembrance of me.

καὶ τὸ ποτήριον ὡσαύτως μετὰ τὸ δειπνῆσαι, λέγων
Likewise to supper’s procedure the cup, having said,

Τοῦτο τὸ ποτήριον ἡ καινὴ διαθήκη ἐν τῷ αἵματί μου,
This cup [of my Suffering] is the New testament in my blood

τὸ ὑπὲρ ὑμῶν ἐκχυννόμενον.
which is shed for you.

Thus drank Christ "strong drink" at the Last Passover of Yahweh, not through the sponge pushed into his face, nor, from the cup "He gave to them and said to them, Drink!"