Lord's Supper - Wine or Grape Juice?

[1stcenturylady]

A few months ago there was a new thread about whether or not Jesus turned water into fermented wine, or grape juice. The poster claimed grape juice. Many disagreed. That post is now closed as it is old and had no responses for a long time. While I still believe the wine was fermented, it made me wonder about our Lord's Supper. Should that wine be grape juice or fermented wine (Mormons use water). What I found has to do with what kind of wine was used by Jews during Passover and the Seder meal. I was astonished to find it was grape juice, called "new wine." Here is something I just found and thought I would share. Note, this is ONLY at Passover, not for regular meals. There the wine was fermented.


There are two Hebrew used translated as "wine" in our English
Bible. The first word is the Strong's word (3196) and is the Hebrew
word, "yayin". This is alcoholic wine.

The second word is the Strong's word (8492). It is the Hebrew
word "tiyrosh". This is non-alcoholic grapejuice or sweet wine. This
is the type of wine that would have been used at Passover -
non-alcoholic wine. This kind of wine is often called in the Bible
"new wine".

While "Yayin" is declared "kosher for Passover" today,
Yeshua/Jesus would have partook of "Tiyrosh" at His seder. This is the
sweet non-alcoholic wine that is called in the Bible "new wine" and
"sweet wine". "Tiyrosh" is associated with the outpouring of God's
Holy Spirit.

The contrast between "Yayin" and "Tiyrosh" can be seen in
Joel. In Joel 1:5 it is written:

"Awake, ye drunkards and weep and howl, all ye drinkers of wine
(Yayin) ..."

In Joel 2:18-19, 24:

"Then will the Lord be jealous for his land, and pity his people. Yea,
the Lord will answer and say unto his people, Behold, I will send the
corn and wine (Tiyrosh) and oil and ye shall be satisfied ... and the
floors shall be full of wheat, and the fats shall overflow with wine
(Tiyrosh) and oil"

In Isaiah 65:8 it is written:

"Thus saith the Lord, As the new wine (Tiyrosh) is found in the
cluster ..."

In Proverbs 20:1 it is written:

"Wine (Yayin) is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is
deceived thereby is not wise"

So, we can see in these passages the contrast between
"Yayin" (alcoholic wine) which is used in a negative connotation and
"Tiyrosh" (non-alcoholic sweet, new wine) which is spoken of in a
positive connotation. Most assuredly, Yeshua/Jesus would have drank of
the "sweet wine" or "Tiyrosh".

 

[FireDragon76]

All wine back then was at least somewhat alcoholic. Grapes naturally ferment into wine unless pasteurized, a process that did not exist back then. And grape juice will do so quickly without any needed intervention, since pressed grape juice naturally contains alcohol-producing yeasts.

For the purposes of our sacrament, the exact content of alcohol does not matter, but traditionally we prefer to use naturally fermented wine.

It's not clear that Jesus Last Supper was a Jewish seder, even if some of the elements are similar. Scholars disagree about this point. It's not really relevant to our sacrament.

 

[Doug Melven]

I personally don't think it matters whether we use fermented wine or grape-juice.
I think it is far more important that we recognize what it is symbolized in the communion.
For me, it would not make a difference if it was wine or not.
But there is a possibility that someone who had been an alcoholic were to partake of wine in the communion and had a relapse because of it.
I think those who promoted the wine would feel bad.

 

[Der Alte]

I agree that Jesus drank real alcohol wine at the last supper and He turned the water into real, alcohol wine at the wedding in Cana. That being said I don't believe that it really makes that much difference whether we use wine or fresh grape juice. About 36 years ago my first wife bought some Welch's opened it, drank some and put it in the refrigerator, not long afterward she passed away. Several months later I happened to notice it, I took it out and when I opened it there was an audible "poong" That was some good "grape juice."

 

[ViaCrucis]

Passover wine, then and now, is naturally fermented; the natural yeasts on the grapes ferment the wine. Grain-based yeasts would render the wine chametz, and unfit for Passover.

The wine drank at the Last Supper--and at every Passover--was not grape juice. It was wine.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I personally don't think it matters whether we use fermented wine or grape-juice.
I think it is far more important that we recognize what it is symbolized in the communion.
For me, it would not make a difference if it was wine or not.
But there is a possibility that someone who had been an alcoholic were to partake of wine in the communion and had a relapse because of it.
I think those who promoted the wine would feel bad.

There is a lot of information, or some good detailed information anyway, about fermentation, and fermented products, and why this was always a bad/sinful thing throughout God's Dealing with His people and throughout Scripture.

Since most people on earth don't listen nor care for Scripture, it is not popular information. (even on forums). So perhaps look lineline in searches to see what can be found .... it is straightforward and interesting, but not suitable for forum discussion when so many people already drink.

 

[1stcenturylady]

There is a lot of information, or some good detailed information anyway, about fermentation, and fermented products, and why this was always a bad/sinful thing throughout God's Dealing with His people and throughout Scripture.

Since most people on earth don't listen nor care for Scripture, it is not popular information. (even on forums). So perhaps look lineline in searches to see what can be found .... it is straightforward and interesting, but not suitable for forum discussion when so many people already drink.

Personally, I want to adhere to SCRIPTURE. It is God's Word. This is why the Hebrew meaning of words as shown in the OP is just as important as the Greek meaning of words. The Lord's Supper with Jesus and His disciples was the Passover Seder, and represents Jesus. When understood, I want to honor God by doing it His way. I'm appalled at the apathy shown, like "who cares?"

If honoring God is not our heart's desire, why do we call ourselves Christians? It is the followers of Christ that will be saved, not those who go through the motions of just saying Jesus is God. Even the demons know that.

 

[Kylism]

As for water into whatever it does not matter. The guests recognized it was good stuff so a miracle happened.

As for Communion/Passover the key part is "do this in remembrance of me..." If I was in the woods I could eat a leaf and drink water as long as I am remembering Him not out of duty but in His love and grace and His salvation.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

As for water into whatever it does not matter. The guests recognized it was good stuff so a miracle happened.

As for Communion/Passover the key part is "do this in remembrance of me..." If I was in the woods I could eat a leaf and drink water as long as I am remembering Him not out of duty but in His love and grace and His salvation.

I think the issue here is whether the liquid used in the Lord’s Passover is alcoholic or not. Some people struggle with alcohol. So if alcohol is used even despite the Christian group organizers knowing people in their fellowship struggle with alcohol, I believe they are showing a lack of love. This is at the heart of the issue of the type of liquid that was used during the Passover. God knows the future. Would God really let people stumble back into alcoholism by making the liquid in the Passover alcoholic?

 

[1stcenturylady]

I think the issue here is whether the liquid used in the Lord’s Passover is alcoholic or not. Some people struggle with alcohol. So if alcohol is used even despite the Christian group organizers knowing people in their fellowship struggle with alcohol, I believe they are showing a lack of love. This is at the heart of the issue of the type of liquid that was used during the Passover. God knows the future. Would God really let people stumble back into alcoholism by making the liquid in the Passover alcoholic?

Personally, I believe it has to do with the two covenants. You can't put new wine into old wineskins. This is also why the sign of our new covenant is the cup, not the cup and bread. It is the cup of the New Covenant. This is also why those who say the "New Covenant is just a renewal of the old" is putting new wine into old wineskins. They are incompatible.

14 Then the disciples of John came to Him, saying, “Why do we and the Pharisees fast often, but Your disciples do not fast?”

15 And Jesus said to them, “Can the friends of the bridegroom mourn as long as the bridegroom is with them? But the days will come when the bridegroom will be taken away from them, and then they will fast. 16 No one puts a piece of unshrunk cloth on an old garment; for the patch pulls away from the garment, and the tear is made worse. 17 Nor do they put new wine into old wineskins, or else the wineskins break, the wine is spilled, and the wineskins are ruined. But they put new wine into new wineskins, and both are preserved.”

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Personally, I believe it has to do with the two covenants. You can't put new wine into old wineskins. This is also why the sign of our new covenant is the cup, not the cup and bread. It is the cup of the New Covenant. This is also why those who say the "New Covenant is just a renewal of the old" is putting new wine into old wineskins. They are incompatible.

14 Then the disciples of John came to Him, saying, “Why do we and the Pharisees fast often, but Your disciples do not fast?”

15 And Jesus said to them, “Can the friends of the bridegroom mourn as long as the bridegroom is with them? But the days will come when the bridegroom will be taken away from them, and then they will fast. 16 No one puts a piece of unshrunk cloth on an old garment; for the patch pulls away from the garment, and the tear is made worse. 17 Nor do they put new wine into old wineskins, or else the wineskins break, the wine is spilled, and the wineskins are ruined. But they put new wine into new wineskins, and both are preserved.”

I believe there are...

Three Types of Wine in the Bible:

Among the saints and various cultures, wine in Biblical times was mixed with water. This would be one of the three types of wine mentioned in the Bible. Here is a quick list of the three types of wine in the Bible:

#1. Fermented Wine (Strong in alcoholic content).
It was primarily barbarians or pagan Gentle nations who drank this kind of wine.

#2. Fermented Wine Diluted by Water (Low in alcoholic content).
This was the type of wine the Israelite drank and it was the wine that was served by the wedding organizer at Cana. Israelites would store fully fermented wine in leather pouches and or by other methods and then they would dilute it with water in order to drink it.

#3. Unfermented Wine or Freshly Squeezed Grape Juice (A non intoxicating beverage).
This was the wine that Jesus made at the wedding at Cana. It is also the wine used in the Passover.​

I believe the wine during Bible times that the Old Testament saints drank was Wine Type #2, whereby it was a wine mixed with water and was lower in alcoholic content (Which was the wine seen at the Wedding of Cana before Christ made Wine Type #3, which was non intoxicating grape juice or unfermented wine); In other words, the wines commonly drank by the OT saints was not like the strong wines of today; And Jesus made grape juice that made was considered the “best wine.” Wines of today (By wine tasters) are considered the best by their taste and not how much they can intoxicate you.

Wine mixed (diluted) with Water Verses:

Revelation 14:10 says,
“The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb”
(Contrast this with Psalms 75:8)

1 Timothy 5:23 says,
"Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities."

Proverbs 9:2 (NIV) says,
"She has prepared her meat and mixed her wine; she has also set her table."

Proverbs 23:31 - Do not look at wine when it is red.

John 19:34 - Blood and water mingled together from Christ's side; And Scripture essentially says the wine in the Lord's supper is representative of Jesus's blood (See Matthew 26:27-29).

Isaiah 1:22 CJB
“Your silver is no longer pure, your wine is watered down.”

Pure silver, which would be too soft to be durable, is mixed with 5-20% copper in an alloy known as sterling silver.

How silver is made - material, making, history, used, processing, industry

If one were to take note: One has to mix copper in silver in order for it to be durable so as to be used. Just as one must use water in their mixture of wine to drink it more safely like an Israelite.

So the idea here is that the silver (mixed with copper) they use has become so dross (or watered down it is then cheap. Just as the wine (mixed with water) is diluted even more whereby it is cheap wine to the Israelite.

Wine could be carried in an undiluted state within leather skin like bottles and then later mixed with water for use. Timothy was told to use a little wine in his water because of the infirmities in his stomach. Paul was telling him to use Biblical wine so as to resolve a medical issue.

Extra Biblical Sources on how wine was mixed with water:

2 Maccabees 15:39, Talmud, and Justin Martyr, etc.

 

[1stcenturylady]

As for water into whatever it does not matter. The guests recognized it was good stuff so a miracle happened.

As for Communion/Passover the key part is "do this in remembrance of me..." If I was in the woods I could eat a leaf and drink water as long as I am remembering Him not out of duty but in His love and grace and His salvation.

While I agree with you on this, it is "milk." This post has to do with the "meat"

 

[JackRT]

All wine back then was at least somewhat alcoholic. Grapes naturally ferment into wine unless pasteurized, a process that did not exist back then. And grape juice will do so quickly without any needed intervention, since pressed grape juice naturally contains alcohol-producing yeasts.

For the purposes of our sacrament, the exact content of alcohol does not matter, but traditionally we prefer to use naturally fermented wine.

It's not clear that Jesus Last Supper was a Jewish seder, even if some of the elements are similar. Scholars disagree about this point. It's not really relevant to our sacrament.

In biblical times wine was normally fermented to the maximum of about 16%. At that concentration the alcohol actually kills the yeast. Biblically this was called strong drink. However the wine was usually cut with water to bring down the alcohol content to 5% to 8%. Grape juice would only be available a few weeks a year during and just following harvest season. Beyond that time the wild yeasts would already be turning the juice into wine. Distillation of alcohol was not known until about the twelfth century. Among the common people the consumption of weak beer (about 2 or 3%) was actually more common than wine which was often reserved for special occasions.

 

[1stcenturylady]

I believe there are...

Three Types of Wine in the Bible:

Among the saints and various cultures, wine in Biblical times was mixed with water. This would be one of the three types of wine mentioned in the Bible. Here is a quick list of the three types of wine in the Bible:

#1. Fermented Wine (Strong in alcoholic content).
It was primarily barbarians or pagan Gentle nations who drank this kind of wine.

#2. Fermented Wine Diluted by Water (Low in alcoholic content).
This was the type of wine the Israelite drank and it was the wine that was served by the wedding organizer at Cana. Israelites would store fully fermented wine in leather pouches and or by other methods and then they would dilute it with water in order to drink it.

#3. Unfermented Wine or Freshly Squeezed Grape Juice (A non intoxicating beverage).
This was the wine that Jesus made at the wedding at Cana. It is also the wine used in the Passover.​

I believe the wine during Bible times that the Old Testament saints drank was Wine Type #2, whereby it was a wine mixed with water and was lower in alcoholic content (Which was the wine seen at the Wedding of Cana before Christ made Wine Type #3, which was non intoxicating grape juice or unfermented wine); In other words, the wines commonly drank by the OT saints was not like the strong wines of today; And Jesus made grape juice that made was considered the “best wine.” Wines of today (By wine tasters) are considered the best by their taste and not how much they can intoxicate you.

Wine mixed (diluted) with Water Verses:

Revelation 14:10 says,
“The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb”
(Contrast this with Psalms 75:8)

1 Timothy 5:23 says,
"Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities."

Proverbs 9:2 (NIV) says,
"She has prepared her meat and mixed her wine; she has also set her table."

Proverbs 23:31 - Do not look at wine when it is red.

John 19:34 - Blood and water mingled together from Christ's side; And Scripture essentially says the wine in the Lord's supper is representative of Jesus's blood (See Matthew 26:27-29).

Isaiah 1:22 CJB
“Your silver is no longer pure, your wine is watered down.”

Pure silver, which would be too soft to be durable, is mixed with 5-20% copper in an alloy known as sterling silver.

How silver is made - material, making, history, used, processing, industry

If one were to take note: One has to mix copper in silver in order for it to be durable so as to be used. Just as one must use water in their mixture of wine to drink it more safely like an Israelite.

So the idea here is that the silver (mixed with copper) they use has become so dross (or watered down it is then cheap. Just as the wine (mixed with water) is diluted even more whereby it is cheap wine to the Israelite.

Wine could be carried in an undiluted state within leather skin like bottles and then later mixed with water for use. Timothy was told to use a little wine in his water because of the infirmities in his stomach. Paul was telling him to use Biblical wine so as to resolve a medical issue.

Extra Biblical Sources on how wine was mixed with water:

2 Maccabees 15:39, Talmud, and Justin Martyr, etc.

All good points but not the issue. I'm not talking about the wedding feast at Canaan. This has to do only with the Lord's Supper, and our New Covenant.

But off topic, do you have any other Old Testament verses that say the Jews never drank totally fermented unmixed wine?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I believe many have a romanticism with alcohol; And because of this, they are not able to see that Jesus made freshly squeezed grape juice and see that the disciples used grape juice during the Passover.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

All good points but not the issue. I'm not talking about the wedding feast at Canaan. This has to do only with the Lord's Supper, and our New Covenant.

But off topic, do you have any other Old Testament verses that say the Jews never drank totally fermented unmixed wine?

The verses I provided show that the Israelite diluted their water and they were not to look at wine when it was red (i.e. a metaphor for when it is fully fermented).

Also, the Talmud, the Apocrypha, and other historical documents also confirm the mixing of wine by the Israelite, as well. It was usually barbarians who drank strong drink.

 

[1stcenturylady]

The verses I provided show that the Israelite diluted their water and they were not to look at wine when it was red (i.e. a metaphor for when it is fully fermented).

Also, the Talmud, the Apocrypha, and other historical documents also confirm the mixing of wine by the Israelite, as well. It was usually barbarians who drank strong drink.

Okay, thanks. So what about the wedding feast. Do you still say Jesus made water into new wine/pure grape juice?

 

[seeking.IAM]

The truth is the church used wine for the sacrament for nearly 2,000 years before the temperance movement popularized doing otherwise. Thomas Welch a Methodist, pasteurized grape juice in 1869, and went on to build a business based upon promotion that using wine in communion was wrong. I think there has been a lot of revisionist history since then trying to justify this. If you want to know why so many Protestant churches use grape juice instead of wine, just follow the money.

 

[1stcenturylady]

The truth is the church used wine for the sacrament for nearly 2,000 years before the temperance movement popularized doing otherwise. Thomas Welch a Methodist, pasteurized grape juice in 1869, and went on to build a business based upon promotion that using wine in communion was wrong. I think there has been a lot of revisionist history since then trying to justify this. If you want to know why so many Protestant churches use grape juice instead of wine, just follow the money.

The Lord's Supper is based on the Passover Seder. That is what this thread is about. "What type of wine was actually used during the ancient Passover Seder?" It was pure grape juice. There was also no leaven in the bread. We are talking about the Lord's body and blood, not 2000 years of erroneous tradition.

 

[1stcenturylady]

I believe many have a romanticism with alcohol; And because of this, they are not able to see that Jesus made freshly squeezed grape juice and see that the disciples used grape juice during the Passover.

I don't know about romanticism, but it should be noted what is TRUTH. Which is why they also used unleavened bread!