Lord's Supper - Wine or Grape Juice?

[1stcenturylady]

It is not a Sabbath. I don't understand the rest. What verse are you referring to?

Just think of the English letters as Greek with an accent. LOL

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The first day of unleavened bread is the 15th, but because Passover is just the day before, they combine them, making the Passover the "first" day.

Good night, my friend.

Scripture says the FIRST DAY of unleavened bread is the PASSOVER (Which is the 14th).

"Now the first day of the feast of unleavened bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare for thee to eat the passover?" (Matthew 26:17).
"Now the feast of unleavened bread drew nigh, which is called the Passover." (Luke 22:1).

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Just think of the English letters as Greek with an accent. LOL

It is likely referring to the weekly Sabbath when Pesakh falls on it...the 15th of Nisan

 

[Hank77]

The temple gates were normally closed at night. Gates at the outer temple walls like these were usually guarded. So the idea of trading at the gate is silly and so a phone would have been the only way to talk with a merchant outside the gates late at night outside of the outer temple wall. But seeing phones did not exist back then, there would have been no way for Mary to try and talk to enough merchants who would be willing to sneak in some hidden way into the temple.

If you would like to continue this discussion, I would be game. However, it should be continue in another thread, not this one about the wine and the Lord' supper.
It you decide to do that, please PM me the link so that I don't miss it. Thanks

 

[1stcenturylady]

Please find me a Scripture verse in the Bible that actually says the 15th is the FIRST day of unleavened bread. You will not find it.

What you will find in the Bible is that the 15th is A or THE (generic) day of the feast of unleavened bread. The word "FIRST" is not attached to the feast of unleavened bread involving the 15th.

Scripture says the FIRST DAY of unleavened bread is the PASSOVER (Which is the 14th).

"Now the first day of the feast of unleavened bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare for thee to eat the passover?" (Matthew 26:17).
"Now the feast of unleavened bread drew nigh, which is called the Passover." (Luke 22:1).

I am examining the Scriptures again on this issue. I know the night Jesus celebrated with His disciples was the REAL Passover. While I said before in my Chronology that the 14th began Tuesday at sundown, I have recently been warming up to the idea that the 14th began Monday at sundown and they celebrated the Passover at the end of the 14th (Possiblly Tuesday late afternoon shortly before sundown). In Leviticus 23:6 says that the first day is an holy convocation. So the day that Christ died for us could possibly be on the 15th (Which was a High Sabbath). However, the Jews were a day behind on their calendar. They thought the Feast of Unleavened Bread was after Christ died at sundown. In Leviticus 23:8 says that they were to make an offering unto the Lord by fire for seven days. This would start on the 15th after they had the Passover feast at the end of the 14th. 5 is the number for grace; And 8 is the number for new beginnings. So Jesus dying on the 15th and rising on the 18th fits the pattern of Biblical numerics. Also, Jesus triumphal entry would then be on a Friday (Nisan the 10th). This seems to fit better than the Saturday Sabbath because donkeys were supposed to rest according to the Sabbath. Also, the cutting of palm branches could also be regarded as work, as well. I still have to pray about it, though. But there is a pattern in Scripture. In the New Testament, the NT writers made a distinction between the REAL Passover and the Jewish passover and customs. The word "Jewish" or the word "Jew's" would be attached to the custom.

I'm just going by Leviticus 23.

5 in the first month, on the fourteenth of the month, between the evenings, [is] the passover to Jehovah;

6 and on the fifteenth day of this month [is] the feast of unleavened things to Jehovah; seven days unleavened things ye do eat;

I'm not trying to prove the 14th as the first day of unleavened bread, just that they are together and considered by some that the passover meal is part of the feast of unleavened bread. The word "first" doesn't matter to me.

 

[Hank77]

Regardless of any such old Jewish standards, the Church has always used alcoholic wine for Communion. For over two thousand years it has been so, beginning with this Scriptural evidence (1 Corinthians 11:21) and continuing through the unchanging Tradition of the Orthodox Church throughout all of the ancient Christian sees. The Church now typically mixes water with the wine in the chalice when the gifts are prepared prior to Liturgy, and very hot water is added again immediately before the chalice is brought to the faithful for Communion. I would estimate it to be a 1:1 ratio of wine and water.

Yes, I Corinthians 11:21 makes it clear. One does not get drunk on non-fermented juice.

1Co 11:20 ye, then, coming together at the same place--it is not to eat the Lord's supper;
1Co 11:21 for each his own supper doth take before in the eating, and one is hungry, and another is drunk;
1Co 11:22 why, have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or the assembly of God do ye despise, and shame those not having? what may I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I do not praise!

 

[truefiction1]

The teaching of the Orthodox Church is that we do not consume blood as set out in the Apostolic council of Jerusalem:

Apostolic Canon 63: If any Bishop, or Presbyter, or Deacon, or anyone else on the sacerdotal list at all, eat meat in the blood of its soul, or that has been killed by a wild beast, or that has died a natural death, let him be deposed. For the Law has forbidden this. But if any layman do the same, let him be excommunicated.

Theodoret of Cyrus says: you should not eat blood, wherefore it is the soul of the animal

St Chrysostom says: you should not eat blood, because it was devoted only to God. Also because God wanted to prevent people not to spill human blood, for it commands neither to eat animal blood so as not thus litle-by-litle become accustomed to homicide.

Clement of Alexandria says: you should not eat blood, because your flesh too is developed and built by blood

It is commanded by our Lord to eat His flesh and to drink His blood. Those who oppose the Church's doctrine of the real presence claim that we are in standing violation of all the Scriptural prohibitions against drinking blood if we indeed believe we are drinking Christ's blood. There are even some who also say that such Scriptural passages serve as prohibitions forbidding medical blood transfusions. You are stuck on the fact that I blurted out that "we could even eat meat offered to idols", and proving the incorrectness of this statement of mine, so that you don't seem to realize that I made the exaggerated statement for rhetorical emphasis, and only to illustrate how the opponents of the use of wine and the drinking of God's blood in Communion are succumbing to a Pharisaical sort of legalism that has no place in Orthodox Christian Sacramental Life. I was able to make my statement (so problematic for you) because of what the Apostle Paul stated in 1 Corinthians 8 about meat offered to idols.

 

[1stcenturylady]

It is possible that the 14th Passover meal and the 15th Day of Unleavened Bread are fused together as one event because the end of 14th runs into the 15th. But it is also possible the Passover was celebrated the remaining ending hours of the 14th before it got dark.

I don't think so. Jesus was already dead. It was the evening before the 14th at the beginning of the 14th.

 

[Hank77]

3) 1 Samuel 1:14-15
- Accused, Hannah said she drank no wine.

Why did Hannah say she drank no wine? Did Hannah say she never drank wine?

1Sa 1:7 And so he doth year by year, from the time of her going up into the house of Jehovah, so it provoketh her, and she weepeth, and doth not eat.
....
1Sa 1:9 And Hannah riseth after eating in Shiloh, and after drinking, and Eli the priest is sitting on the throne by the side-post of the temple of Jehovah.
1Sa 1:10 And she is bitter in soul, and prayeth unto Jehovah, and weepeth greatly,
....
1Sa 1:12 And it hath been, when she multiplied praying before Jehovah, that Eli is watching her mouth,
1Sa 1:13 and Hannah, she is speaking to her heart, only her lips are moving, and her voice is not heard, and Eli reckoneth her to be drunken.
1Sa 1:14 And Eli saith unto her, `Until when are thou drunken? turn aside thy wine from thee.'
1Sa 1:15 And Hannah answereth and saith, `No, my lord, A woman sharply pained in spirit I am , and wine and strong drink I have not drunk, and I pour out my soul before Jehovah;
1Sa 1:16 put not thy handmaid before a daughter of worthlessness, for from the abundance of my meditation, and of my provocation, I have spoken
hitherto.'

Eli had accused her of getting drunk because of sorrow. She says that she hasn't drunk anything to make her drunk like a drunk daughter who is worthless.

 

[1stcenturylady]

@Jason0047 did you see my reference to you on #238! You are right, and I just proved it with scripture in the original Greek!

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

I'm just going by Leviticus 23.

5 in the first month, on the fourteenth of the month, between the evenings, [is] the passover to Jehovah;

6 and on the fifteenth day of this month [is] the feast of unleavened things to Jehovah; seven days unleavened things ye do eat;

I'm not trying to prove the 14th as the first day of unleavened bread, just that they are together and considered by some that the passover meal is part of the feast of unleavened bread. The word "first" doesn't matter to me.

If what he says was the case, unleavened bread would be allowed since the next night would be the beginning of unleavened...could not have unleavened with the seder if it were the night before.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

It is commanded by our Lord to eat His flesh and to drink His blood. Those who oppose the Church's doctrine of the real presence claim that we are in standing violation of all the Scriptural prohibitions against drinking blood if we indeed believe we are drinking Christ's blood. There are even some who also say that such Scriptural passages serve as prohibitions forbidding medical blood transfusions. You are stuck on the fact that I blurted out that "we could even eat meat offered to idols", and proving the incorrectness of this statement of mine, so that you don't seem to realize that I made the exaggerated statement for rhetorical emphasis, and only to illustrate how the opponents of the use of wine and the drinking of God's blood in Communion are succumbing to a Pharisaical sort of legalism that has no place in Orthodox Christian Sacramental Life. I was able to make my statement (so problematic for you) because of what the Apostle Paul stated in 1 Corinthians 8 about meat offered to idols.

That does not matter, what you said was wrong. I was just correcting you. like I said, I disagree with them also...

 

[truefiction1]

So can we hook up scientific equipment to prove that this happens?
Or does it only work when nobody is looking?



However, what if an ex alcoholic who struggled with alcohol was thrown back into alcoholism because of such a service? What should the elders of the church think, say or do in this case? Also, most wines does not have any nutritional value. Why do you think there is no nutrition label on most bottles of wine? Alcohol is a poison and it seeks to dry things out. Why else do you think people get drunk off of it? Because it is too healthy for them? Actually there is a scientific study done that says that alcohol consumption even in moderate amounts actually shrinks the brain.

Ask former alcoholics who are practicing Orthodox Christianity if receiving Communion is a problem for them. I seem to recall that they say it isn't. The Holy Spirit heals and illumines the brain, and the Sacrament of Communion, when properly prepared for, has both the Holy Spirit and the Word of Life in it. Such an experience does not shrink the brain. In Orthodox worship the half teaspoon of wine mixed with bread you receive as a lay person is diluted with about an equal amount of water. That's probably why Orthodox tend not to make a fuss about the alcohol.

As for your last inquiry: Can we measure and quantify an uncreated, personal spirit being using our scientific equipment?

 

[1stcenturylady]

If what he says was the case, unleavened bread would be allowed since the next night would be the beginning of unleavened...could not have unleavened with the seder if it were the night before.

Interesting, I'll check it out. However, we DO know that the lamb on Passover was without spot, so represented Christ. So must the bread; He was still without sin, the sins of the world had not been placed on Him. Just my thoughts, but I'll see what I can find in scripture.

 

[Albion]

Interesting, I'll check it out. However, we DO know that the lamb on Passover was without spot, so represented Christ.

We could say that, but it still means that the meal was not a Seder. Perhaps that was what Jesus led his Apostles to think it was going to be--because of their expectations--but if there was no literal lamb, it was something else (which, in turn, ruins all the arguments based upon "Since it was a Passover meal, the Jews would not have done X...or they surely had to have done Y")

 

[truefiction1]

That does not matter, what you said was wrong. I was just correcting you. like I said, I disagree with them also...

I understand your intent to correct me for what you thought I was saying. I just want to be clear that what you thought I was saying isn't actually what I was saying.
If you are saying that 1 Corinthians 8 does not matter, I would have to disagree, because it all does matter. It matters because most of us eat food offered to idols on many occasions. We know, for example, that mammon is an idol. Atheist acquaintances, unbelieving business associates, and non-religious family members and friends sometimes invite us to their banquets to celebrate mammon if, say, they got a big promotion or landed a great new career. They kill the fatted cow and pig and grill us up some burgers and hotdogs to celebrate, and we eat them. We don't worship mammon, just because our hosts have no other god but mammon, but we worship God alone. We eat the burger because we're hungry and it tastes good. In terms of our relationship to God, as the Apostle Paul states "we are no worse if we do not eat, and no better if we do." Just because the idols of old are no longer visibly worshiped as statues doesn't mean their any less predominantly worshiped in our societies. Food is still prepared as "offerings of thanksgiving" to the idols. I've eaten my share of such offerings. Haven't you?

In this respect, we really do eat food offered to an idol sometimes, without even realizing it or caring in the least bit, because we know that doing so doesn't speak to our Communion with God, as stated in 1 Corinthians 8.

 

[1stcenturylady]

We could say that, but it still means that the meal was not a Seder. Perhaps that was what Jesus led his Apostles to think it was going to be--because of their expectations--but if there was no literal lamb, it was something else (which, in turn, ruins all the arguments based upon "Since it was a Passover meal, the Jews would not have done X...or they surely had to have done Y")

So explain a seder. I'm no expert. Are you saying the Passover meal is NOT a seder?

 

[Hank77]

2) Deuteronomy 32:33
- Enemy's wine is like the poison of serpents vs. Israelite's pure blood of the grape (verse 14).

Deu 32:31 For not as our Rock is their rock, (And our enemies are judges!)
Deu 32:32 For of the vine of Sodom their vine is , And of the fields of Gomorrah; Their grapes are grapes of gall--They have bitter clusters;
Deu 32:33 The poison of dragons is their wine And the fierce venom of asps.
....
Deu 32:37 And He hath said, Where are their gods--The rock in which they trusted;
Deu 32:38 Which the fat of their sacrifices do eat, They drink the wine of their libation! Let them arise and help you, Let it be for you a hiding-place!

As you can see the verse you quoted was pulled out of it's true context and meaning. It's a metaphor.
Jesus said....
Joh 15:5 `I am the vine, ye the branches; he who is remaining in me, and I in him, this one doth bear much fruit, because apart from me ye are not able to do anything;
King David said...
Psa 95:1 Come, we sing to Yehovah, We shout to the rock of our salvation.
Psa 95:2 We come before His face with thanksgiving, With psalms we shout to Him.
Psa 95:3 For a great God is Yehovah, And a great king over all gods.
Peter said....
1Pe 2:6 Wherefore, also, it is contained in the Writing: `Lo, I lay in Zion a chief corner-stone, choice, precious, and he who is believing on him may not be put to shame;'
1Pe 2:7 to you, then, who are believing is the preciousness; and to the unbelieving, a stone that the builders disapproved of, this one did become for the head of a corner,
1Pe 2:8 and a stone of stumbling and a rock of offence--who are stumbling at the word, being unbelieving, --to which also they were set;

 

[Bible Highlighter]

@Jason0047 did you see my reference to you on #238! You are right, and I just proved it with scripture in the original Greek!

The Jews celebrated at the end of the 14th. It is why the Scriptures stress the following about the Jew's version of keeping the preparation day at the wrong time.

"There laid they Jesus therefore because of the Jews' preparation day; for the sepulchre was nigh at hand." (John 19:42).

The real day of preparation of the lambs was the night before with Jesus. It's why we read the following.

"Now the first day of the feast of unleavened bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare for thee to eat the passover?" (Matthew 26:17).

 

[1stcenturylady]

Exodus 12:18-20 says,
18 "In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at even, ye shall eat unleavened bread, until the one and twentieth day of the month at even.
19 Seven days shall there be no leaven found in your houses: for whosoever eateth that which is leavened, even that soul shall be cut off from the congregation of Israel, whether he be a stranger, or born in the land.
20 Ye shall eat nothing leavened; in all your habitations shall ye eat unleavened bread."

Leviticus 23:5-8 says,
5 "In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the LORD'S passover.
6 And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the LORD: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread.
7 In the first day ye shall have an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein.
8 But ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD seven days: in the seventh day is an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein."

According to the above passages, there are:

#1. 7 days of eating unleavened bread (Leviticus 23:6).
#2. 1st Day is an holy convocation (High Sabbath) (Leviticus 23:7).
#3. 7th Day is an holy convocation (High Sabbath) (Leviticus 23:8).

Here is what this looks like if Jesus and His disciples celebrated the Passover on the beginning calendar day of the 14th after the sun went down on Tuesday evening (Note: Tuesday is the 13th and Tuesday sundown begins Wednesday the 14th).

Here is what it looks like if Jesus and His disciples celebrated the Passover the 14th at the end of the day (i.e. the end of the 14th) on a Tuesday evening (Note: Sundown on Tuesday then began Wednesday the 15th).

The Jews thought the 15th was a day later. It is why the Scriptures stress the following about the Jew's version of keeping the preparation day at the wrong time.

"There laid they Jesus therefore because of the Jews' preparation day; for the sepulchre was nigh at hand." (John 19:42).

The real day of preparation of the lambs was the night before with Jesus. It's why we read the following.

"Now the first day of the feast of unleavened bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare for thee to eat the passover?" (Matthew 26:17).

So what date would that be? They were to kill and eat the same day.

Did you read #238? What I was referring to was 3 pm on Saturday. I proved it for you.