Liberal Church Theology declining

Albion

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Would a typical continuing Anglican church accept or communicate people living in an illicit sexual relationship, e.g. cohabitation, without any moral reproach?
I honestly don't know how to answer that. For one thing, I don't have personal knowledge of most of the Continuing church parishes. And you've qualified the question by adding "without any moral reproach."

The church's standards on sexual behavior are published, and I suspect that this situation would likely bring some sort of response from the rector or vicar, but again, excommunication is a very serious matter not to be invoked easily.
 
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redleghunter

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No they haven't. Their membership is 66% of what it was in 2000, and it is projected they will be extinct by 2040 at the current rate of decline.

The only denomination that has experienced faster contraction than the ECUSA is the UCC.

The Unitarians are also non-Christian according to the CF.com SOF; their growth is to be regarded as a tragedy.

I believe the Unitarian growth is due to their acceptance of the homosexual lifestyle and homosexual unions, and homosexual clergy ordination.
 
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Paul Yohannan

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I believe the Unitarian growth is due to their acceptance of the homosexual lifestyle and homosexual unions, and homosexual clergy ordination.

Episcopalians, the ELCA, the PCUSA and the UCC also have that, as well as the Christian Church / Disciples of Christ, and the American Baptist Convention.

Yet all of them are shrinking.

The only mainline church that doesn't officially have gay marriage is the UMC, but UMC clergy just disobey the rulings of their General Conference and the district superintendents and bishops let them get away with it, on the grounds that the people voting against gay marriage are from Africa and their opinions are therefore not relevant to the UMC in the US.

I find it really appalling.

There is even talk of schism.

The UMC in Africa remains traditional, and conservative, and is growing. My late uncle, may his memory memory eternal, was a UMC missionary tortured by Salazar in Angola in 1957.

---

However, because the UCC, et cetera, have gay marriage, but are shrinking fast, I think that rules out the idea that gay marriage is causing the Unitarians to grow. Rather, I think the growth of the Unitarians is driven by their rejection of the Gospel in favor of a doctrine-free religious pluralism.

All of the mainline churches still preach the Gospel, even if they accept gay marriage and homosexuality, and I am of the opinion that the incompatibility between the two produces cognitive dissonance. Cognitive dissonance is known to make people physically uncomfortable, and directly explains the dwindling size of the congregations.

I would also note even in the ECUSA, there are conservative bishops, conservative dioceses, conservative congregations and conservative priests, which are healthy and functional. It's the moderate churches which are sinking fast. A few of the ultra-modernist emergent parishes like St. Gregory of Nyassa in San Francisco have carved out a niche, but I am of the opinion that the demand for such parishes is limited; it is clearly not enough to sustain the church as a whole.

In New York City, the Cathedral of St. John the Divine, which recently installed an altar depicting Jesus as a woman, and which apparently has some really frightening looking Halloween parties (I posted a thread on it in Denomination Specific Theology), is running out of money and is having to sell off their beautiful surrounding parklands to commercial developers.

Holy Trinity on Wall Street on the other hand is a bit more traditional, and also is the wealthiest parish church (I think of any denomination) in North America, with priceless endowments of land and other assets.

---

Because gay marriage and the reading of the Gospel produce cognitive dissonance, the attendance at mainline churches will fall until they return to the traditional Christian faith, which historically, I think most of them did a very good job proclaiming. The Unitarians will continue to grow, because having discarded the Gospel first through the rejection of the deity of Jesus Christ our Lord, and secondly and more severely, by embracing the transcendtalism promoted by the likes of Rev. Ralph Waldo Emerson, they have eliminated from their churches the actual Gospel message, so there is no cognitive dissonance owing from a clash of ideas.

The Gospel convicts people of sin; homosexuality is a sin, and when a minister reads from the Revised Common Lectionary, and then delivers a sermon that might, for example, praise gay marriage, the result will make most people very uncomfortable.
 
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FireDragon76

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I believe the Unitarian growth is due to their acceptance of the homosexual lifestyle and homosexual unions, and homosexual clergy ordination.

That's part of it, especially in the south. Remember a few years ago there was a shooting at a Unitarian Universalist church in Kentucky. The UU and the Metropolitan Community Church, in some areas, are the oldest, and sometimes only, "gay welcoming" churches, so they draw a lot of attention, positive and negative.

Paul focuses a lot on national politics but that's not the whole picture. On a parish by parish level, ELCA churches are more conservative than the national representation at the synod. Progressives, after all, tend to be more activist than middle of the road conservatives, and they get their voices heard more often.

Down here in Orlando, the religious culture is slightly more conservative than the national average and most mainline churches are only slightly more liberal than their conservative evangelical neighbors on issues of sexual ethics. The difference is, as Albion said, that excommunication is a severe measure in these churches not taken casually just to help somebody along the path to sanctification. Episcopalians and Continuing Anglicans very seldom would excommunicate anybody unless they were something like a notorious criminal. It's almost unheard of for that kind of discipline to be invoked.

I have heard of Continuing Anglican priests taking an unmarried young couple aside and telling them they ought to wait until marriage until living together. But that's different from taking a thirty-something couple who have lived together for years aside and telling them to split up or live celibate lives.
 
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redleghunter

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However, because the UCC, et cetera, have gay marriage, but are shrinking fast, I think that rules out the idea that gay marriage is causing the Unitarians to grow. Rather, I think the growth of the Unitarians is driven by their rejection of the Gospel in favor of a doctrine-free religious pluralism.

This right here is most striking.
 
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Paul Yohannan

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Paul focuses a lot on national politics but that's not the whole picture

I take great exception to that statement. Reread my posts in this thread, and you will see that I discuss in great detail the nuances of individual parishes and pastor-parish relationships in the ECUSA and the UCC.

Please do not make sweeping generalizations about my scholarly approach to studying the religious landscape in contemporary Christianity; the statement you made I reject as entirely untrue, and as an offensive slight against my research, which has been very thorough and laborious.
 
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Paul Yohannan

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But that's different from taking a thirty-something couple who have lived together for years aside and telling them to split up or live celibate lives.

An Orthodox Priest can offer three options to such persons desiring baptism or Chrismation into Holy Orthodoxy:
  • They can embrace Holy Matrimony, which is the preferred option (assuming they qualify; both parties should be members of Nicene Christian churches, and of the opposite gender, and not presently legally married to any third party).
  • They can stop having sexual relations.*
  • They can cease cohabitation.
* In the case of this, there are ancient canon laws which discourage unmarried celibate couples from living together for reasons of temptation. A prudent pastor would not grant this option except in the case of the very elderly.

The same generally applies in Catholic, traditional Anglican, Baptist, traditional Presbyterian, and confessional Lutheran churches.
 
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Paul Yohannan

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Episcopalians and Continuing Anglicans very seldom would excommunicate anybody unless they were something like a notorious criminal. It's almost unheard of for that kind of discipline to be invoked.

I am not interestedin the views of Episcopalians on this issue.

With @Albion, I expect there may be a gap in how we are using the words "excommunicate." In the West, the word "excommunicate" commonly is read to mean something like an anathema or disfellowshipping; the exclusion of someone from a parish or denomination.

In the Orthodox Church, being excommunicate merely means one is not able to partake of the Eucharist at a particular liturgy. If I fail to observe the Eucharistic fast, I cannot partake of the Eucharist without a special blessing from my priest. If I arrive after the Gospel is read, many priests will not provide the Eucharist. Conversely, an ancient canon stipulates that it is a sin to leave the liturgy without pressing reasons after the scripture lessons and homilies and before the anaphora.

One should also go to confession regularly.

Now, the real question here has to do with reception. The Orthodox reject most non-Orthodox baptisms, and all non-Orthodox confirmations.

So let us assume, for the sake of argument, that a cohabiting couple wants to join a continuing Anglican or LCMS parish, a couple that is not Christian.

@Albion - would a typical continuing Anglican or ACNA jurisdiction allow a cohabiting couple living in a state of fornication to be baptized?

@MarkRohfrietsch - would the LCMS/LCC, or, as far as you are aware, the WELS, baptize a couple living in a state of cohabiting fornication?
 
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FireDragon76

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I take great exception to that statement. Reread my posts in this thread, and you will see that I discuss in great detail the nuances of individual parishes and pastor-parish relationships in the ECUSA and the UCC.

Re-read #43. You made an over-generalization of churches and parishes in the ELCA, failing to understand our polity and how these decisions were made. Officially, the ELCA neither approves nor disapproves of homosexual sexual relationships as a corporate body, it is left up to the individual conscience of pastors and the councils, because we recognize that there is significant disagreement without resolution. And clergy from one parish are not automatically allowed to preside at another just because they are clergy, they are not interchangeable priests with indelible marks on them, each parish calls their own clergy.
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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<Snip>

@MarkRohfrietsch - would the LCMS/LCC, or, as far as you are aware, the WELS, baptize a couple living in a state of cohabiting fornication?

I can not speak for WELS, but for LCMS/LCC; no, but... there are some Pastors who may; the same ones who would commune them.

This is indicative of one of the biggest flaws in Congregationalist Polity in Churches; local and personal politics often compel one to not always do what is exactly right. Such is why I advocate a strong episcopal form of governance. In Canada, we are beginning to make that U-turn.

I can't remember who said it, but "an informed dictatorship is the most effective (and efficient) form of government".
 
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grasping the after wind

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I take baseless attacks on mainline Protestant churches very seriously. Some folks should examine their own lives to see whether they are really being faithful, before they go casting stones.

BTW, in the ELCA, property is owned by the local parish, not the synod.

That last is a bit of a misleading statement. An ELCA congregation cannot simply choose to leave the ELCA and remain in possession of the property it supposedly owns. There are strict conditions laid out for departing which must be met for the congregation to retain possession of that property. That being the case, to be entirely truthful, one would have to admit that the ELCA, being the ultimate arbiter on property possession, is actually the truly ultimate landlord. Of course any Christian knows that the ultimate owner of all is the Lord Himself.

One other thing I would take issue with is your simplistic explanation for why a large group of Lutherans left the ELCA after the adoption of CCM. The majority of those that left which I have spoken with did not mention episcopal polity as their reason. They did almost universally speak about apostolic succession. Many considered it a superstition and many thought it was simply not something they were at all interested in having be part of their theology. I'm sure you are correct that many left because of a problem they may have had with episcopal polity, but I expect there were a specific amount that left because they felt betrayed by , not episcopal polity ,but ELCA politics. Another amount left because they considered apostolic succession to be superstition. Another group left because they felt insulted that the agreement seemed to imply, despite being assured that it did not, in one person's words "that the majority of previously ordained Lutheran ministers were somehow inferior because they had not received the magic touch from a previously ordained Episcopal member of the apostolic succession". Another group saw the direction the ELCA was headed on sexual issues and wanted to get out early. So there were numerous reasons for the exodus not simply a problem with apostolic polity. I can add that there was a feeling among some of those opposed to CCM that any debate was merely a formality and that they were not given a fair chance to state their case prior to the vote. A member of our congregation, that has since passed, came back incensed about the treatment his faction received. He , though completely opposed to the agreement, did not leave. He had a strong commitment to our local Congregation and a stubborn streak but from that point on he had nothing good to say about the bureaucratic structure or those in the hierarchy of the ELCA.
 
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Albion

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@Albion - would a typical continuing Anglican or ACNA jurisdiction allow a cohabiting couple living in a state of fornication to be baptized?
Continuing Anglican--probably not. ACNA--maybe. But I have no personal knowledge of this situation having occurred in a parish, so I'm going strictly on what a pastor ought to do in order to be in accord with his own church's stated views on such a matter.
 
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FireDragon76

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Thanks for that perspective. I am always curious to know more about the politics of Lutherans and the ELCA.

Calling the Episcopalian viewpoints on apostolic succession "superstition" is strong language, and honestly it sounds like a lack of appreciation for the Episcopalian viewpoint(s). Which is strange because there are Lutheran churches that do believe that apostolic succession is a good thing to retain and not incompatible with being Lutheran. Honestly, it sounds like some of those folks set up a certain way to be Lutheran as the only way to be a Lutheran.
 
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FireDragon76

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Calling two people in an irregular union "fornicators" that need to be denied the primary sacrament of the Christian faith is a very harsh judgement that sees no nuance possible in these situations. I see it as potentially indicative of an ethical lapse. It smacks of the religion of Jesus' time on earth, where the word "sinner" was used to mark out certain individuals as beyond God's grace, as outcasts. This is not the kind of religion you will find at my church. All ELCA pastors I have met have had a passionate desire to not imitate the way of the bad shepherds of Israel. That is why I am a member of this denomination. Because I think our works do matter.
 
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AACJ

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THis is
Interesting read how membership is declining in the church that have adopted liberal teachings instead of the Gospel

Liberal Churches Dwindle Away while Conservative Churches Thrive - KEEP the FAITH

Original story

Liberal churches are dying. But conservative churches are thriving.
utm_term=.1ec24041aa85
Thanks for the post. It's fantastic news. The prayers of the saints are working effectually.The moral/spiritual climate in America has been improving over the past two years.

Things do not have to get worse, Christians.
 
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FireDragon76

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Another article to read, one that examines growth and decline within mainline churches:

Why the Mainline Shrinkage?

It points out that mainline churches that are relatively conservative can still grow. That describes the parish I belong to. My church is liberal in terms of personal ethics (as have mainline churches always been) but that doesn't mean we believe in anything and nothing.
 
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redleghunter

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Another article to read, one that examines growth and decline within mainline churches:

Why the Mainline Shrinkage?

It points out that mainline churches that are relatively conservative can still grow. That describes the parish I belong to. My church is liberal in terms of personal ethics (as have mainline churches always been) but that doesn't mean we believe in anything and nothing.

What does it mean to be liberal on personal ethics?

As in Bill Clinton personal ethics or Mother Teresa? :)
 
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