Liberal Church Theology declining

FireDragon76

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Perhaps not, but you are criticizing Orthodox churches for doing what 1 Corinthians 11:27-34, 2 Corinthians and Revelations say they should do.

I guess experience has lead us to part ways on biblical hermeneutics on some points. Which is unfortunate that there are disagreements but we have to be faithful to our conscience informed by the Scriptures, as we understand them.

Even sadder are the failing Episcopal parishes, and the liturgical decay at remaining Episcopal and RC parishes, meaning in much of the US, there are no conveniently situated churches where one can attend a beautiful formal liturgy in a traditional theological context.

Liturgical decay is a separate issue. If this were the only issue there wouldn't be anything but agreement from me.
 
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Paul Yohannan

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You don't understand Lutheran theology or ethics, then, Paul.

I think I do, actually.

The Law of God condemns us all. No amount of works, penances, or acts of obedience will change the reality that we are sinners that stand condemned, that every one of us has committed fornication in our heart, and nothing but the blood of Jesus, not our works or penances, can wipe that clean. In those sorts of difficult situations, we must sin boldly.

That is not what Luther meant by "sin boldly." His statement to sin boldly is one of the most oft-misinterpreted remarks he made. In no sense did Luther intend to grant to people a license to sin free from ecclesiastical criticism or condemnation.

"Sin boldly" is a statement of the Lutheran-Augustinian idea of unworthiness before God, which does apparently stand in contrast to the Orthodox or Wesleyan idea idea of theosis or entire sanctification. However if one reads the texts in greater detail, it becomes clear that Martin Luther was merely referring to the inevitability of further sin, not celebrating it, and certainly not encouraging it.

A compassionate pastor would understand this and not hold people to an inhuman standard.

Asking people to be married as a prerequisite to having sexual intercourse is not an "inhuman standard," it is rather the normal requirement across almost all Christian denominations, including, until very recently, all of Lutheranism.

It is grossly inappropriate to accuse the Orthodox Church of a lack of compassion or of holding people to an inhuman standard simply because we follow the same standards as the RCC, the LCMS, the SBC and most other Christian denominations concerning fornication and adultery.

We do not communicate unrepentent sinners. If you have sex outside of wedlock, that is sin.

Also, be advised, because I don't want anyone getting into any trouble in this debate: it is against the rules of CF.com to promote either premarital sex or the acceptance of premarital sex.

The Eucharist being poison for sinners goes against our theology. We all come to Christ as unworthy sinners.

That is only partially correct. Whereas it is true that Luther enjoined the Eucharist on the laity as a means of providing healing from sin, and did not embrace the same extremely strict approach to the Eucharist that the Orthodox follow (which is stricter than the RC approach in some respects), he did not envisage the Eucharist being given to people intentionally and unrepentently engaging in active sin.

It is for this reason the LCMS has not just a closed communion, but also, many LCMS parishes practice confession. Lutheranism retained auricular confession, and some Lutheran theologians appear to regard it as a sacrament, or if not a sacrament, than as a very important sacramental act.

My pastor explained it this way to me: Lutherans do not preach cheap grace. It's the other churches, the ones that say that all is needed is some acts of prefect contrition or confession to set you right with God, that have the problem.

The Orthodox Church also does not practice "cheap grace," and I find the insinuation that we do, deeply offensive.

People who are directly and unrepentently disobeying our Lord by engaging in sexual activity outside of marriage, or homosexual relations, or adultery, or incest, cannot partake of the Eucharist in most churches, including the Orthodox.

It makes light of sin to say the human will somehow add something to salvation by works. Justification before God is by grace alone, and not works, so that no one should boast.

The Orthodox Church regards Sola Fide as an error, based on the epistle of St. James.

We also do not believe in salvation by forensic justification.

We believe in salvation by deification, or theosis. Our Lord said "Be perfect even as your Father in Heaven is perfect." St. James said "Faith without works is dead."

However, even from a Protestant Sola Fide perspective, the continuation of the faithful in severe, entrenched states of sinful living is regarded as a lack of a living faith, which is why nearly all Protestants (even most laity in the mainline churches, which are largely elderly parishioners whose views are often far more traditional than those of their own clergy) reject such behavior as unacceptable.

The Orthodox do not take a forensic view towards sin. We regard sin as a disease, and the church is a hospital for the treatment of this disease. However, you can't treat people who refuse treatment.

For us to welcome into our communion a couple who were in an unrepentent state of fornication and who refused to embrace marriage would be equivalent to a drug rehab center admitting a patient who brought with him his suppy of methamphetamines and continued to use them at his customary dosage while ostensibly undergoing treatment.

The idea is frankly preposterous. Just as we would not regard a rehab center that correctly refused to allow such behavior as lacking compassion, or holding people to an "inhuman standard," we can likewise say that any Orthodox Church that allowed its members to continue to unrepentently indulge and wallow in the very depths of sin without any repentence, remorse, contrition or desire to change is guilty of malpractice.

A drug rehab center that encouraged its patients to do drugs would quickly go out of business. A hospital which refused to provide medicine but instead encouraged its patients to embrace their diseases would wuickly go out of business.

People come to church for healing, and many parishes of the mainline Protestant churches are shrinking away owing to having lost the confidence of their flock, their patients, if you will. A small number, located primarily in urban areas, have managed to carve out a niche by redefining sin in light of various political issues related to the environment or social justice (however, of these, only the post-Christian or non-Christian Unitarian Universalists have been completely successful at it and growing their membership on a denominational level).
 
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redleghunter

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The same standards we usually hold to marriage.

Legally speaking would be a common law marriage in my state.

Secular law aside of course for this discussion.

I would see if the couple in question were of a Semitic origin circa 4000 BC where the tradition was to choose a wife, consummate the marriage and then both families celebrate and exchange of dowry delivered etc.

However, is not this couple professing a church which has a very old tradition of what constitutes a faithful marriage within the church?

I will note I did not include society. Our Western society hasn't a clue what defines a faithful marriage.
 
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FireDragon76

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According to Timothy Wengert, one of our church historians and a respect scholar, Luther was a pragmatist, not a moralist. He did indeed advise people in certain situations that doing things that were objectively sinful was better than the alternatives which would imperil their faith and trust in God. This is not a celebration of sin, it is a celebration of God's grace and a recognition of human weakness.

Lutherans also believe that Christ's sacraments are for healing. But ultimately it is Christ that is the healer. This therapeutic focus is not lost on us, especially in the ELCA. We do not have a strictly forensic view of salvation and never have. But we will never be completely healed until we reach heaven. Yes, we begin obedience partially now on earth, but this imperfect obedience is not the basis for our acceptance by God, it is the fruit of it.

Sola Fide does not contradict St. James. We believe in a faith that works, that doesn't cease to do good. But that doesn't mean we will be without sin. We do good works for the good of our neighbor, not for our own sense of holiness or righteousness. Christ is our righteousness and made us holy in baptism.
 
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Paul Yohannan

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One cannot live in an unrepentent state of continual sin and receive the Eucharist in the Orthodox Church.

We have to differentiate between sinful acts, which could include swearing, one-off instances of fornication, and so on, with sinful conditions, for example, living in sin outside of wedlock, which is something traditionally rejected by all Christians (only recently and only in the declining mainline churches has this been accepted; this acceptance I beliefe is hastening the decline of those churches).

It's not enough to pay lip service to the Gospel and then to simply disobey it.

If someone in an illicit state of cohabitation or common law marriage approached the Orthodox Church, and agreed to sacramental marriage and to desist from sin, they would be welcomed into Holy Communion (unless their illicit relationship was homosexual or incestuous; the Orthodox Church has a system of degrees of consanguinity similiar to those in use in the Roman, Anglican and other churches to determine whether or not a marriage is allowed).
 
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FireDragon76

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We distinguish the Law from the Gospel.

The Gospel is not something to obey but to believe. It is the promise of the forgiveness of sins and eternal life, and it is freely given to all who believe and receive it.

The Law, on the other hand, shows us our sinfulness and condemns us.
 
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FireDragon76

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However, is not this couple professing a church which has a very old tradition of what constitutes a faithful marriage within the church?.

The Orthodox have some of the most difficult rules regarding marriage of any Christian church. Rules that run contrary to our cultural customs. For instance, marrying someone who is Jewish or Buddhist is forbidden in Orthodoxy, but it is permitted in Roman Catholicism in the US.

FWIW, I don't know that both individuals in the couple are Orthodox, I very much doubt it. Which could be another impediment. He may not even be a Christian.

I just used this particular situation as an example of how people I know have left the Orthodox church, either intentionally or unintentionally, and some of them likely will never be able to return.
 
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Open Heart

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FireDragon76

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As Paul pointed out, the Unitarian Universalists are actually growing (in fact it's growing fastest in the southern US, a place not known historically for liberal religion), with a growth rate similar to Eastern Orthodoxy. It does seem that liberal religion is no longer completely moribund in terms of growth. In the last decade, the Episcopalians have actually increased in membership in some years. Not a huge amount, but the decline seems to have leveled off somewhat. The controversies over human sexuality hurt our churches in terms of membership but I believe things will be better moving forward.
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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Actually, there is a guy here who was in the LCMS and he said that an LCMS pastor he knew remedied a similar situation. Lutherans, whether conservative or liberal, are not nearly as moralistic as Catholics or the Orthodox.



Perhaps. Being faithful to Jesus has never been easy. Lutherans of all people know this, it is deeply written into our theology. We do not embrace theologies of glory, success, and self-improvement.



My reading of the Bible says that's what really being faithful to Christ is: to do justice and to love mercy.



Repenting of a loving, faithful relationship is degrading and unjust. The couple I mentioned should be celebrated and supported by the Christian community, not shamed and cast out.



it's not a baseless attack. I'm not offering up a caricature of Orthodox churches or theology.

From both a Biblical and confessional stand-point, any LCMS or LCC Pastor would have reacted the same way as that Orthodox Priest did.

There are lot's of other Churches that would yield to the ways of the world; if persons can not accept a Churches authority to maintain order through praxis that complies with not only Scripture but the Historic traditions of that Church, they they would be more at home in one of the more liberal and secular-friendly feel-good Churches.

So many people try and make the Church in their image.
 
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FireDragon76

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From both a Biblical and confessional stand-point, any LCMS or LCC Pastor would have reacted the same way as that Orthodox Priest did.

This particular case was two disabled people living in an assisted-living facility. They wanted to get married, but social security prevented it from legally happening. So the LCMS pastor simply blessed their marriage in secret.

It is widely recognized that marriage and family is a human right. Some of the individuals that contributed to this human rights discourse were philosophers and thinkers from the Christian tradition, such as Jacques Maritain. The fact the US government has failed to secure the rights of the disabled should not prohibit the Church from recognizing those same rights.

In the early Church, slave marriages were not legally recognized, but the Church still honored their marriages and did not consider them living in sin.
 
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Paul Yohannan

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In the last decade, the Episcopalians have actually increased in membership in some years.

No they haven't. Their membership is 66% of what it was in 2000, and it is projected they will be extinct by 2040 at the current rate of decline.

The only denomination that has experienced faster contraction than the ECUSA is the UCC.

The Unitarians are also non-Christian according to the CF.com SOF; their growth is to be regarded as a tragedy.
 
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Paul Yohannan

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This particular case was two disabled people living in an assisted-living facility. They wanted to get married, but social security prevented it from legally happening. So the LCMS pastor simply blessed their marriage in secret.

There are several Orthodox priests who are outraged at homosexual marriage and who will perform a Crowning (marriage service) without doing the civil marriage aspects.

From a doctrinaire Orthodox perspective, civil marriage is not the same as Holy Matrimony.

However, there is an ethical issue raised by refusing civil marriage in order to receive more welfare benefits, and I expect many Orthodox clergy might refuse to perform a wedding under those conditions.
 
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FireDragon76

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However, there is an ethical issue raised by refusing civil marriage in order to receive more welfare benefits, and I expect many Orthodox clergy might refuse to perform a wedding under those conditions.

It's a matter of economic stability, the sort of thing that the non-disabled largely take for granted. Or would you rather have these individuals sacramentally married and homeless? Half of all blind people are unemployed at any given time and de facto discrimination against the disabled is common.
 
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Paul Yohannan

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It's a matter of economic stability, the sort of thing that the non-disabled largely take for granted. Or would you rather have these individuals sacramentally married and homeless? Half of all blind people are unemployed at any given time and de facto discrimination against the disabled is common.

What these individuals should do is refrain from sexual intercourse, and work with the Priest to find a solution within the welfare system for their condition. Usually, being married is of benefit financially and in terms of welfare. If for some reason that is not the case, there are other options.

Sex outside of holy matrimony is not required for survival and is not needed.

---

My view is that this is a quibble. There is no legitimate reason for people to have a sexual relationship outside of wedlock. If there was some appalling quirk in the welfare laws, I am sure most Orthodox priests could work with the couple to find a solution. However, if the couple presents themselves in an attitude of intransigence, i.e. a refusal to recognize their sexual cohabitation is sinful, an Orthodox priest absolutely must exclude them from the sacraments.
 
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FireDragon76

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It's not a quibble. Every human life has equal and infinite dignity. Saying it is a quibble is insulting to the plight of the disabled. Denigrating the desire for marital life is also unbiblical, as far as I'm concerned, and it's definitely incompatible with the Lutheran faith.
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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This particular case was two disabled people living in an assisted-living facility. They wanted to get married, but social security prevented it from legally happening. So the LCMS pastor simply blessed their marriage in secret.

It is widely recognized that marriage and family is a human right. Some of the individuals that contributed to this human rights discourse were philosophers and thinkers from the Christian tradition, such as Jacques Maritain. The fact the US government has failed to secure the rights of the disabled should not prohibit the Church from recognizing those same rights.

In the early Church, slave marriages were not legally recognized, but the Church still honored their marriages and did not consider them living in sin.

Such is one of those judgement calls that St. Augustine spoke of; the lesser of two evils.
 
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Tallguy88

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This particular case was two disabled people living in an assisted-living facility. They wanted to get married, but social security prevented it from legally happening. So the LCMS pastor simply blessed their marriage in secret.

It is widely recognized that marriage and family is a human right. Some of the individuals that contributed to this human rights discourse were philosophers and thinkers from the Christian tradition, such as Jacques Maritain. The fact the US government has failed to secure the rights of the disabled should not prohibit the Church from recognizing those same rights.

In the early Church, slave marriages were not legally recognized, but the Church still honored their marriages and did not consider them living in sin.
I agree. I know many old and disabled people in similar situations.
 
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Albion

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The LCMS, Catholics and the Orthodox practice closed communion and deny it to persons in a state of unrepentant sin, which would include the scandal of cohabitation outside of wedlock. The Anglican Book of Common Prayer (1662) contains rubrics providing for a similiar excommunication of any "notorious evil liver," and in some of the more traditional Anglican churches, these are still in use ( @Albion , is this the case in your Continuing jurisdiction out of curiosity? )

Hi, Paul. To my knowledge, the Continuing churches as a whole acknowledge the principle and its validity, but OTOH I can think of no instance where it's been imposed. Perhaps it has and I just didn't hear about it. "Notorious evil liver" is a pretty stern judgment, after all.
 
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Paul Yohannan

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Hi, Paul. To my knowledge, the Continuing churches as a whole acknowledge the principle and its validity, but OTOH I can think of no instance where it's been imposed. Perhaps it has and I just didn't hear about it. "Notorious evil liver" is a pretty stern judgment, after all.

Would a typical continuing Anglican church accept or communicate people living in an illicit sexual relationship, e.g. cohabitation, without any moral reproach?
 
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