Liberal Church Theology declining

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redleghunter

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Interesting read how membership is declining in the church that have adopted liberal teachings instead of the Gospel

Liberal Churches Dwindle Away while Conservative Churches Thrive - KEEP the FAITH

Original story

Liberal churches are dying. But conservative churches are thriving.
utm_term=.1ec24041aa85

Some of these churches were just social justice clubs with a steeple. Dollars to donuts if you go to the websites and look at the statements of faith, you will find the Deity of Jesus Christ either not mentioned or loosely termed.
 
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FireDragon76

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I go to a mainline church, a little church in Orlando that is a member of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America. Every Sunday we confess we believe:

1) in the deity of Jesus Christ
2) in the virgin birth of Christ
3) in the resurrection of Jesus Christ
4) in his return in glory to judge the living and the dead

... things conservative evangelicals usually consider "fundamental" traditionally.

That doesn't sound so "apostate" to me, does it? Many conservative churches, on the other hand, do not have a significant confession of faith that is said publically, and they may have minimal guidelines or rules on just what exactly they do believe or confess.

There's so many wrong assumptions about mainline churches in that article. The biggest mistake being that numerical decline is a sign of the mainline approach being wrong or false. Faithfulness has never been measured this way. Frankly, the focus on church growth and numbers displayed indicates the consumerist ethos of much of American religion and is not indicative of historic Christianity, the "faith once delivered to the saints".

Another is that mainline theology and practice is the result of cultural capitulation . This is again false. Mainline churches have been committed to their current ways of being for a long time, literally centuries. Recent moves in controversial areas such as human sexuality are the result of trends that have been happening for a long time: decades, not years.

Mainline churches engage in actual theology, not biblical demagoguery. Not understanding this difference is crucial. Fundamentalist churches rely on authoritarianism and limited accountability for a leader to tell their followers what to believe, how to believe, with limited debate or discussion possible. While lip-service is given to the Bible, critically reading the text is not favored. Mainline churches, on the other hand, usually have accountability to a wider world through synodical polity, sometimes on multiple levels, and significant lay participation in that process. Theology is done critically, by reading the Bible and Church traditions as the fundamental sources of doctrine, in light of current circumstances and scholarship and with accountability to the Great Commission and the Gospel.

Conservative churches in the US are also declining. The only exceptions are Pentecostals and the Eastern Orthodox Church. Eastern Orthodox do not traditionally fit easily into the conservative American religious landscape socially or politically, as Orthodoxy has a stronger commitment to social justice and doesn't fit with the privatized, pietistic ethos of conservative American religion. They have tended to flock politically with mainline Protestants.

This decline of religion in general in the US is also nothing new, and it's following the patterns that have already been happening for a century in Europe. So this is not a reason for conservative Christians to be triumphalist. Conservatives have just managed to gain a stronger voice poltiically in the US, but it is very likely a pyrrhic victory.
 
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Paul Yohannan

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Conservative churches in the US are also declining. The only exceptions are Pentecostals and the Eastern Orthodox Church. Eastern Orthodox do not traditionally fit easily into the conservative American religious landscape socially or politically, as Orthodoxy has a stronger commitment to social justice and doesn't fit with the privatized, pietistic ethos of conservative American religion. They have tended to flock politically with mainline Protestants.

Actually much of our growth has come from converts aggrieved about liberal theology and contemporary worship in the mainline churches.

The beauty of Orthodoxy is that it is unchanging.

We have some priests who are politically conservative, and others who are politically liberal, but our communion is united in opposition to gay marriage and abortion.
 
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Paul Yohannan

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Interesting read how membership is declining in the church that have adopted liberal teachings instead of the Gospel

Liberal Churches Dwindle Away while Conservative Churches Thrive - KEEP the FAITH

Original story

Liberal churches are dying. But conservative churches are thriving.
utm_term=.1ec24041aa85

Most of those churches have spawned traditionalist offshoot groups, or traditional mainline denominations which decided to move away from liberalism, which are fast-growing. The decline of the PCUSA is accompanied by the rise of ECO, the PCA and OPC. The decline of the ELCA is accompanied by the rise of the NALC, as well as thaf of older groups like the venerable LCMS (hi @MarkRohfrietsch :) ) and the WELS. The decline of the ECUSA is accompanied by the rise of ACNA and various smaller Continuing Anglican churches. Even the United Church of Christ has a traditionalist offshoot: the CCCC, which includes the prestigious Colonial era Park St. Church in Boston, as well as an internal traditionalist group called Faithful and Welcoming.

@FireDragon76 - the denominations I have just enumerated are respectable traditional Protestant churches which have a number of wonderful theologians and do real theology, not Biblical demagoguery. The PCA, OPC, WELS, LCMA, and ACNA in particular have some really top tier theologians. I would say at present there is more high quality theological scholarship being done in ACNA than in the ECUSA, work that genuinely builds on NT Wright. The Federal Vision idea and the New Perspective on Paul have been studied in several of these denominations, much more closely than in their mainline counterparts. I don't like Federal Vision, but I do like the New Perspective on Paul, as I find it closer to the Really Really Ancient Perspective on Paul one finds in my church.
 
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FireDragon76

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Most of those churches have spawned traditionalist offshoot groups, or traditional mainline denominations which decided to move away from liberalism, which are fast-growing. The decline of the PCUSA is accompanied by the rise of ECO, the PCA and OPC. The decline of the ELCA is accompanied by the rise of the NALC,

Some groups that left the ELCA had other motivations besides disagreement with statements on human sexuality. For instance one offshot group rejected episcopal governance, and left around 2000 because the ELCA sought closer ties with Episcopalians. Even in the recent NALC formation a few years ago, they also rejected episcopal polity, though not in quite as strong terms.

I find this idea of rejecting episcopal polity a bit problematic as a Lutheran POV, as our confessions are actually not against this ancient form of church polity, and several Lutheran churches do in fact have episcopal governance (the ELCA actually has bishops though their "diocese", or synods, are huge). Sometimes, like in the ACNA, there are international powerplays happening, effectively jostling to manipulate a minority perspective into prominence. So my point is that there is other stuff going on other than just human sexuality. Though that issue is the most symbolic.

Even if you consider that many of these groups have genuine objections against this perceived excess in permissiveness, they are still a small fraction of all the mainline in the US. Though they are an option for the dedicated seeker (since they are far fewer in number), someone interested in the general ethos of mainline Protestantism but concerned about the direction that most churches have taken.

However, compared to the large number of American fundamentalist evangelicals that the author of this webpage is writing about as "faithful" to the Scriptures, these churches that recently broke away are otherwise historically liberal. Many having female clergy, critical methods of reading the Scriptures, and so forth. We may be sad there is a breakup, but they are still part of the liberal mainline in many ways (unlike say, the Continuing Anglicans, who have left that decades before these issues came to a head, though I've seen higher critical methods acknowledged in some of those churches as well).

I am aware of converts to Orthodoxy but if you look at the numbers it's a small fraction compared to the people that are leaving Christianity altogether and becoming nones. And my experience is that not all converts to Orthodoxy are retained, and that this is an unspoken problem. I know several on this forum and one in the real world (and no I'm not talking about me) who don't participate in their church or have effectively excommunicated themselves, likely never able to return, and moved on with their lives as spiritual but not religious or nones.

What's my point? Don't ask for whom the bell tolls, it tolls for thee. All the churches in America are going to be facing serious problems within a generation.
 
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Paul Yohannan

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I know several on this forum and one in the real world (and no I'm not talking about me) who don't participate in their church or have effectively excommunicated themselves, likely never able to return,

That statement shows a general lack of knowledge concerning what "excommunication" means in the Orthodox Church. We do not "excommunicate" people in the sense Martin Luther was excommunicated except in very rare cases. Severe penances are handled out only in places like the ROCOR Ecclesiastical Court (which in the event of a canonical divorce, will make a determination as to which party is at fault and to what degree and will penance one or both; most other Orthodox jurisdictions are less severe than ROCOR in this respect).

Someone who has not been to church and confessed or taken the Eucharist in a while is technically excommunicate but this state is rectified simply by going to confession and then the Eucharist.

Actually most Orthodox priests do not impose even the minor penances typical of Catholicism.

About the only thing that can get one excommunicated publically is teaching heresy. The only recent case of this I can think of is Matthew Heimbach, a white supremacist, was excommunicated by the Antiochian Orthodox Church for making remarks which implied Orthodoxy favors racial segregation (we do not; in the Eastern Orthodox church the idea of racial segregation was anathematized as the heresy of ethnophyletism, and thus Heimbach became anathema by embracing it).

Now the canon law of the Orthodox Church is extremely strict (adulterers get a ten year excommunication, people who engage in sodomy, including married couples, closer to a thirty year excommunication, if we go "by the book") but in practice, oikonomia is applied except in the case of clergy.
 
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FireDragon76

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That statement shows a general lack of knowledge concerning what "excommunication" means in the Orthodox Church.

We have a family friend that was Eastern Orthodox, she converted over a decade and a half ago in college. She is blind and her boyfriend is blind, and they had a baby together. But they can't marry because they both get some amount of disability, probably through their parents account, even though both earn a little money as well. She hasn't expressed any interest in returning to the church, but I suspect if she does, she will get the same reception I did, being told she is excommunicated unless she dissolves her family arrangement.

Someone who has not been to church and confessed or taken the Eucharist in a while is technically excommunicate but this state is rectified simply by going to confession and then the Eucharist.

Unless the priest judges them as living in a state of sin and they are unwilling to give up their life to please their priest.

but in practice, oikonomia is applied except in the case of clergy.

...until it's not.
 
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Paul Yohannan

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I find this idea of rejecting episcopal polity a bit problematic as a Lutheran POV

It's hugely problematic, although I can't blame them given the extent to which bishops in the ELCA have been behind much of the unpleasantness which has alienated people. Members look at the LCMS with its congregational polity, where an Episcopalian-style lock out and property sale (which has also happened in the UMC; see the case of St. Paul's UMC in Alaska) is out of the question, and that model, which I personally reject, becomes appealing.

The real problem with Lutheran and Anglican bishops in my view is that they are not celibate monastics. The episcopal office requires so much responsibility and carries such a spiritual weight, the early church determined that unlike presbyters, which can optionally be married (although in the Roman Rite starting in the fourth century, they were not married), bishops should either be widowers, elder married couples held to continence, or monastics.

The monastic model works best, better than the RC model where secular diocesan celibates can become bishops. A monastic bishop will have years of experience in prayer as a monk, and in pastoral care, usually having previously served as a hieromonk, and also as an archimandrite or hegumen, presiding either over a monastery as an abbot or over a parish. A monastic bishop is unpaid and is forbidden from being involved in secular affairs. The sort of dubious financial dealings we have seen involving the bishops of one major US denomination are uncanonical in Orthodoxy (they happen, we do have corrupt bishops, but every frequently they are deposed for such corruption, whereas in the case of a major US mainline denomination, there is a sitting bishop involved in a very questionable real estate deal involving a traditionalist parish he shut down).
 
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FireDragon76

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I take baseless attacks on mainline Protestant churches very seriously. Some folks should examine their own lives to see whether they are really being faithful, before they go casting stones.

BTW, in the ELCA, property is owned by the local parish, not the synod.
 
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Paul Yohannan

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We have a family friend that was Eastern Orthodox, she converted over a decade and a half ago in college. She is blind and her boyfriend is blind, and they had a baby together. But they can't marry because they both get some amount of disability, probably through their parents account, even though both earn a little money as well. She hasn't expressed any interest in returning to the church, but I suspect if she does, she will get the same reception I did, being told she is excommunicated unless she dissolves her family arrangement.

People who are unmarried and are living together in a state of carnal relations are excommunicate. Fornication is prohibited by our Lord and in the New Testament. Strictly speaking such persons would be excommunicate in the RCC (except individual Orthodox priests can refuse the chalice, whereas in the RCC, only a bishop can), and in the LCMS, and in the ACNA, et cetera.

That mainline Protestant churches accept such behavior is contributing to their tragic decline.

There is no sense in which considerations of qualification for disability or other forms of welfare legitimizes fornication.

Unless the priest judges them as living in a state of sin and they are unwilling to give up their life to please their priest.

It has nothing to do with pleasing the priest. It has to do with obeying the instructions given by the incarnate Word of God.

The reason why, even by your own admission, the Orthodox Church is growing, owes to our fidelity to sacred tradition, which, as a reading of the New Testament will confirm, absolutely precludes fornication.

...until it's not.

If those persons repented of their sinful cohabitation most Orthodox priests would admit them to the chalice without delay.

I take baseless attacks on mainline Protestant churches very seriously. Some folks should examine their own lives to see whether they are really being faithful, before they go casting stones.

I take baseless attacks on the Holy Orthodox Church very seriously.
 
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FireDragon76

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People who are unmarried and are living together in a state of carnal relations are excommunicate. Fornication is prohibited by our Lord and in the New Testament. Strictly speaking such persons would be excommunicate in the RCC (except individual Orthodox priests can refuse the chalice, whereas in the RCC, only a bishop can), and in the LCMS, and in the ACNA, et cetera.

Actually, there is a guy here who was in the LCMS and he said that an LCMS pastor he knew remedied a similar situation. Lutherans, whether conservative or liberal, are not nearly as moralistic as Catholics or the Orthodox.

That mainline Protestant churches accept such behavior is contributing to their tragic decline.

Perhaps. Being faithful to Jesus has never been easy. Lutherans of all people know this, it is deeply written into our theology. We do not embrace theologies of glory, success, and self-improvement.

the reason why, even by your own admission, the Orthodox Church is growing, owes to our fidelity to sacred tradition, which, as a reading of the New Testament will confirm, absolutely precludes fornication.

My reading of the Bible says that's what really being faithful to Christ is: to do justice and to love mercy.

If those persons repented of their sinful cohabitation most Orthodox priests would admit them to the chalice without delay.

Repenting of a loving, faithful relationship is degrading and unjust. The couple I mentioned should be celebrated and supported by the Christian community, not shamed and cast out.

I take baseless attacks on the Holy Orthodox Church very seriously.

it's not a baseless attack. I'm not offering up a caricature of Orthodox churches or theology.
 
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Paul Yohannan

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Actually, there is a guy here who was in the LCMS and he said that an LCMS pastor he knew remedied a very similar situation, without condemning the couple as sinners and demanding they repent.

I am not prepared to comment on a situation like that without knowing all of the details.

I will say however that I know of precisely zero LCMS pastors who regard cohabitation as an acceptable moral condition.

It is not "condemning as sinners" someone who is cohabitating in fornication and refusing marriage in order to collect a welfare check (an excuse I find dubious). Such persons have already made themselves sinners. The Orthodox Church does not condemn them. However, the Eucharist would be poison for such people, according to 1 Corinthians 11:27-34 (which the ELCA and other churches using the very inadequete Revised Common Lectionary no longer read during the course of the church year).

The LCMS, Catholics and the Orthodox practice closed communion and deny it to persons in a state of unrepentant sin, which would include the scandal of cohabitation outside of wedlock. The Anglican Book of Common Prayer (1662) contains rubrics providing for a similiar excommunication of any "notorious evil liver," and in some of the more traditional Anglican churches, these are still in use ( @Albion , is this the case in your Continuing jurisdiction out of curiosity? )
 
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Paul Yohannan

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I'm not offering up a caricature of Orthodox churches or theology.

Perhaps not, but you are criticizing Orthodox churches for doing what 1 Corinthians 11:27-34, 2 Corinthians and Revelations say they should do.

Also, in no way have I provided a caricature of mainline Protestantism.

There is no one more upset about the decline of the mainline churches than I am. Especially the Episcopal Church, which was supposed to have become the Western Orthodox Church. The collapse of ecumenical discussions between the Anglican Communion and Holy Orthodoxy due to the capitulation of some Anglican churches to theological modernism is something I find truly heartbreaking.

Even sadder are the failing Episcopal parishes, and the liturgical decay at remaining Episcopal and RC parishes, meaning in much of the US, there are no conveniently situated churches where one can attend a beautiful formal liturgy in a traditional theological context.
 
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FireDragon76

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You don't understand Lutheran theology or ethics, then, Paul.

The Law of God condemns us all. No amount of works, penances, or acts of obedience will change the reality that we are sinners that stand condemned, that every one of us has committed fornication in our heart, and nothing but the blood of Jesus, not our works or penances, can wipe that clean. In those sorts of difficult situations, we must sin boldly. A compassionate pastor would understand this and not hold people to an inhuman standard.

The Eucharist being poison for sinners goes against our theology. We all come to Christ as unworthy sinners.

My pastor explained it this way to me: Lutherans do not preach cheap grace. It's the other churches, the ones that say that all is needed is some acts of prefect contrition or confession to set you right with God, that have the problem. It makes light of sin to say the human will somehow add something to salvation by works. Justification before God is by faith alone, and not works, so that no one should boast.
 
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redleghunter

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Repenting of a loving, faithful relationship is degrading and unjust. The couple I mentioned should be celebrated and supported by the Christian community, not shamed and cast out.

Depends on your definition of faithful is?
 
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