Let's Talk About Hell (4)

[createdtoworship]

The "PONTIFF" posts yet another meaningless post... which is the LAST which shall gain a response from me... DUST SHAKEN... good luck bro... you're gonna need it.

Sweet Dreams is a much more interesting poster... At least SD, is rational... which is MUCH more than can be said of your rantings...

Bother somebody else for a while... I am tired of your childishness... which KNOWS nothing... and refuses to communicate rationally, deducing ridiculously, and basically is pretty much an accomplished, and boring, ...UNLEARNED pest.

Bye-bye...



PEACE....


...willieH

thats fine, I will continue to tally your views for the others benefit on this forum.

peace,

(see I said something loving!)

 

[createdtoworship]

you DO have reading disabilities... Maybe you flunked out of the "dallas the-ILLOGICAL cemetary", being unable to READ...

No one asked you, WHAT a "CULT" is! How DENSE can you get, gradyll? ...

I asked you and, You failed to answer... What AUTHORITY do YOU have to DEEM anyone or any organization a CULT? ...

I'll tell you, and its so VERY obvious, ...NO AUTHORITY whatosever...

Truth be told, ...you are probably the LEAST "authoratative" person I have ever had the displeasure to NOT communicate with, ...especially concerning the BIBLE, ...as all you have is "COPIED" beliefs... ...which you have borrowed from the BLASPHEMERS at the "dallas the-ILLOGCAL cemetary" ...oh SON of the Roman Catholci Church... which shall be WITH you as you both endure the SHAME to come...

Where is CULT noted in the BIBLE? ...well it AIN'T in the Bible... and you would KNOW this, if you studied it even SLIGHTLY...

And btw, ...Who cares what "Dr. braden" says, anyway?

Certainly not me!

He's just another from your BLASPHEMING team, that carries about as much "clout" as do YOU... which is a "clout" that is non-existent... like the PROOF you are UNABLE to provide for Sciences's claim of the "speed of light"...

So... ALL of this below, is nothing but the continuing, disoriented, radically GRACELESS, and blaspheming FOOLISHNESS of "gradyll" who remains in the spiritual cradyll, ...which is UNDESERVING of any answer from me, to ANY of IT:




NONE of the above, is worthy of response...

PEACE...


...willieH

I thought you were scared of my hermeneutics....

 

[Timothew]

thats fine, I will continue to tally your views for the others benefit on this forum.

Please don't do that. We can PM Willie to get a list of his views, or he could post them on his CF page.

 

[LutheranMafia]

Those who reject this will not have eternal life. I believe this is esssential christianity...

In my anger at the false teachers I get a little obsessed. I continually wonder why they can't see the plain message of scripture, and what can I do or say to make them see the truth. The false doctrine has come into my house and wife and son both believe it. The false teachers have convinced them that I am the heretic. This angers me, because I believe the false doctrine is a tool of the enemy.

I am sorry to hear that this has caused a rift in your family. I would only say that this is not a salvic issue. You can be completely wrong on this issue and yet still be perfectly saved. If you think it is a salvic issue than I would agree with you that it is an obsessive OCD issue. The fate of the damned does not matter one way or another to those who are saved. If they continue on forever in torment or are obliterated is the same either way for those who are saved.

I hope that this does not continue to be an issue in your household. I grew up in a household where there were very divergent views on spirituality and politics, and I do not think that it had any bearing on whether or not the different members of my household were saved or not. They were all loving people who will be with us in glory.

 

[Timothew]

We are all saved in that we are all trusting Jesus Christ and ONLY Jesus Christ for eternal life. We all just differ on what that eternal life looks like, and what is the fate of those who do not have eternal life in Christ.

 

[Sophrosyne]

<snip>
The fate of the damned does not matter one way or another to those who are saved. If they continue on forever in torment or are obliterated is the same either way for those who are saved.
<snip>

I think that it matters to many that those who are damned are doomed to an unpleasant afterlife sometimes to the point they actually can reject God as a monster if they believe that it is the true nature of God to send the unholy and unrepentant to torment forever. I have seen many over the years use eternal torment as a reason to reject Christianity outright.
I also have seen many reject Christianity when they see God does seemingly nothing to stop their loved ones from being tormented by evil people in this life.
It comes down to people only seeing what God does and not understanding truly who God is, why he does it, and trusting there is a higher reason than our carnal flesh can understand.
Those rejecting God for his wrath and fleeing to God only when he loves don't truly understand why God has wrath in the first place and tend to separate God into the Father (Old Testament) who is wrathful and vengeful and given to seemingly fits of violence against mankind , and Jesus (New Testament) who is loving and submissive (mostly) and seemingly forgiving of everything there is without reservation.

 

[createdtoworship]

Please don't do that. We can PM Willie to get a list of his views, or he could post them on his CF page.

you are not the only one here, others may in fact benefit from knowing Willies over all track record since he posts so often here.

 

[Sophrosyne]

it's not against the rules, and others will benefit from it (other than you)

I see nothing wrong with pointing out things that people post that are "mistakes". I do however think there reaches a point where it starts to lose its audience and becomes instead of pointing things out appears to head towards adhominem when excessively done.
I have learned when you cannot get someone into a reasonable exchange or debate then it is just them on a soapbox usually whining about your doctrine with their ears plugged.

 

[createdtoworship]

My view is that the early church all believed that eternal life came from Jesus Christ with a physical resurrection to life. I believe this is the pure gospel. Those who reject this will not have eternal life. I believe this is esssential christianity. I believe that a few hundred years after the church was started, a heretic group pushed it's way into the christian church.

belief in the resurrection is not a proposition of the Gospel , rather it is an affirmation (a non essential aspect of the Gospel, but that cannot be denied)

Norman Geisler (PhD) agrees

"Nothing indicates that the average Israelite (or Jew) was required to have faith in all of these doctrines as a condition for his justification. Even the stated content of the gospel as revealed to Abraham (cf. Gen. 15:4-6; Gal. 3:8) does not include some of these teachings. Once again, certainly in the days when people began to “call on the name of the Lord” (Gen 4:26) there was no stated requirement that they express explicit belief in God’s triunity or Christ’s virgin birth, sinlessness, deity, atonement, resurrection, ascension, present session, and return. Of course, one could argue from silence that they were required to believe these doctrines; nevertheless, because the text does not say so, this argument from silence is exactly that- an argument without any evidence. " -Geisler

"In short, it appears that at most, the normative Old testament salvific requirements (in terms of explicit belief) were (1) faith in God’s unity, (2) acknowledgement of human sinfulness, (3) acceptance of God’s necessary grace, and possibly (4) understanding that there would be a coming Messiah."-Geisler.

Norman Geisler page 518-535 Systematic Theology Vol #3 SIN & SALVATION ©2004 Bethany House Pub.

He has a B.A, M.A., Th.B., and Ph.D (in philosophy). He has taught at some of the top Seminaries in the United States, including Trinity Evangelical and Dallas Seminary and currently he is Distinguished Professor of Apologetics at Veritas Evangelical Seminary in Murrieta, CA (Veritas Evangelical Seminary).

authored over 70 books and hundreds of articles here:
Dr. Norman Geisler

 

[Timothew]

belief in the resurrection is not a proposition of the Gospel , rather it is an affirmation (a non essential aspect of the Gospel, but that cannot be denied)

No, it is the gospel, the good news. We don't remain dead and in the grave, we are resurrected and have eternal life. Paul said this is the gospel:

Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.
3For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5and that he appeared to Peter,b and then to the Twelve. 6After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. 7Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, 8and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born.
9For I am the least of the apostles and do not even deserve to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me was not without effect. No, I worked harder than all of them&#8212;yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me. 11Whether, then, it was I or they, this is what we preach, and this is what you believed.
12But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. 15More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. 16For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. 17And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. 19If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are to be pitied more than all men.
​

The resurrection of Christ and therefore also us is of Central importance in the gospel. There is no gospel without the resurrection. If we are not raised to life, what is the good news? If there is no resurrection, we live and then we die.

 

[createdtoworship]

No, it is the gospel, the good news. We don't remain dead and in the grave, we are resurrected and have eternal life. Paul said this is the gospel:

Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.
3For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5and that he appeared to Peter,b and then to the Twelve. 6After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. 7Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, 8and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born.
9For I am the least of the apostles and do not even deserve to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me was not without effect. No, I worked harder than all of them&#8212;yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me. 11Whether, then, it was I or they, this is what we preach, and this is what you believed.
12But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. 15More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. 16For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. 17And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. 19If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are to be pitied more than all men.
​

The resurrection of Christ and therefore also us is of Central importance in the gospel. There is no gospel without the resurrection. If we are not raised to life, what is the good news? If there is no resurrection, we live and then we die.

yes, but you are confusing the general resurrection with the resurrection of Christ firstly. The fact that all are resurrected is not Good news because many or most will be resurrected to Judgment. secondly, there are details of the resurrection of Christ that are confusing. Was He raised three days later or after three days? the resurrection of Christ was after three days but upon study it is actually only a day and a half, but spanning three days. He was in the grave late friday and out early sunday, that is only a little over 36 hours approx. So are we unsaved if we get the particulars of the resurrection a little confused? I think that if we don't understand yet the resurrection but believe in Christ as saviour, we are saved. As long as we retain our depravity in mind and as long as we don't reject the resurrection of Christ utterly. This is why I believe (and Norman Geisler) that the resurrection is not a main proposition of the Gospel, but a secondary affirmation (may not be comprehended but must be not denied). There are many affirmations of the Gospel: The virgin Birth, the Diety of Christ etc.

 

[WillieH]

you believe in your own sort of purgatory willie, that we are all in the lake of fire burning right now. Eh?

nothing here worth a response.

 

[WillieH]

wonderful, exactly as I expected from you.

here is some more

Yeah,,, you can really CLEARLY see the "planet PLUTO" SIGN... without a doubt! ...NOT!

Lights in the sky do not = the "planet PLUTO"... Hey, since your into fantasy, ...isnt the bigger one in this ISOLATED and COMMON pic... the famouse, "planet MICKEY MOUSE?

 

[WillieH]

I thought you were scared of my hermeneutics....

Hmmm... Hermeneutics? ...real BIBLICAL term.... more like MINDLESSNEUTICS

Nothing you have to offer, brings any FEAR whatsoever, laughter yes, FEAR? NOT A CHANCE!

As for me, the LOVE of YHVH casts OUT, ...ALL semblances of FEAR, and inserts HIS LOVE in my heart on a daily basis, as I fellowship with Him and His WORD...

Let's face it HERM, ...You are the one which is "AFRAID" of HELL... "believing" in GOD, hoping to escape your FEAR of it found wthiin your DEFILED RELIGION, instead of believing and knowing Him personally. -- 1 John 4:18 -- If you really KNEW Him (LOVE)... you would KNOW there is no such thing as HELL, nor would you have any FEAR of this IMAGINARY foolishness... But you DO... of your own choosing...

As well, ...you would LOVE ME, if your really had fellowship with GOD... not "squeeze out" a wish of PEACE, and then pat yourself on the back for that one instance! LOVE would be your habit... and it would come forth from you in EVERY post toward me. Not FORCED, but of a NATURAL HABIT which displays LOVE as living in your heart, and committment to bringing it to OTHERS.

But lo & behold, LOVE is one of the hardest things to come forth from you... as you do not KNOW it, ...NOR the GLORY of its presence, ...NOR the REASON found in its PURPOSE... which NOT vengent, and is NOT destructive, and is NOT seeking to torment men... rather is SO LOVING, that the supreme sacrifice was made for ALL MEN -- 1 Tim 2:6 -- in order to RECONCILE them ALL to Himself -- Col 1:20 -- 2 Cor 5:19 -- 1 Tim 4:9-11 -- Rom 5:18-20

What you "KNOW" Herm, is RELIGION... ...fixed in the CEMENT of TRADITION... both of which are DEFILED, both devoid of LOVE, ...a heart which has WAXED COLD... to be pitied.

Hey HERM... Let's see who "KNOWS" the WORD and who does NOT! Are you AFRAID?

A DEBATE requires the participants to ANSWER questions, instead of sidestepping them by generalizing, and thereby avoiding them. FAILING the premise of "debate"...

If you are up to it (which likely you are FEARFUL), why not post a ONE on ONE debate in which YOU will debate ME, during which I, who has NO FEAR of you and your "knowledge" ...and will easily answer YOU, ...but remember, ...YOU will be required to answer ME, and any questions asked of you...

Let's see shall which of us, is STUDIED and which one is NOT...

And since you think you "KNOW" what "satan" is, and "believe" this term to represent an "entity"... why not debate the subject with me? ...I'll even let you go FIRST! ...

Establish a REAL picture with Scripture, that "satan" is a "being"... and I will reply to it... and then YOU shall be questioned, and required to answer ME...

Are you AFRAID to do this, HERM?

Why not see WHO knows this subject and who DOES NOT... Areya "chicken", HERM?

Are you FEARFUL to do this? ...guess we shall see if you are up to a REAL, ...DEBATE... ...and if indeed you have a "bachelors degree", it should pose no problems for you to succesfully debate an "uneducated" one such as me, eh HERM? ...you should be CONFIDENT... being all "up to Biblical, snuff", ..."batchelor's degree" in tow, eh - HERM?

No copying of BOOKS which other theologians have worked to gather, NO "cut & paste" or copying... MAKE a case for your belief, with your "hermeneutical" talents... ...give us a concise INTERPRETATION... if you even have one...

lets see what YOU GOT, and what YOU "KNOW"...

I'm bettin' ...it ain't a whole bunch... ...I'm also bettin' you will CHOKE or "chicken out"! ...or make excuses...

PEACE.... and if you have yet to notice, ...from now on you are "Herm"


PEACE...

...willieH

 

[Sophrosyne]

14 laughing smilies?

 

[WillieH]

14 laughing smilies?

You are invited to make a case for "satan" (if you can)...

Let's see what YOU got...

PROVE "satan" is a "being", and tell us of the PURPOSE that an ALL KNOWING GOD, which makes NO MISTAKES... made your precious "halloween" character... yet had to do BATTLE with "him" in Heaven, then DUMPED "satan" here... to mess with all of us...

Show us with REASON and with SCRIPTURE, Sos, how that makes ANY SENSE at all -- Isaiah 1:18


Like HERM... you probably won't... ...and when you DON'T... (I'll give enough time for you to come up with something) --

I shall give you revelation of "satan"... which defines the term, and IN that, ...has PURPOSE, and that ...has REASON... and neither the PURPOSE nor the REASON within it, ...contains DESTRUCTION of MEN... and is POSITIVE on their behalf, not NEGATIVE!

And which revelation has NOTHING whatsoever to do with any sort of "HELL" ...have at it, Sos... Tell us of your knowledge of "satan"...


PEACE...


...willieH

 

[Sophrosyne]

You are invited to make a case for "satan" (if you can)...

Let's see what YOU got...

PROVE "satan" is a "being", and tell us of the PURPOSE that an ALL KNOWING GOD, which makes NO MISTAKES... made your precious "halloween" character... yet had to do BATTLE with "him" in Heaven, then DUMPED "satan" here... to mess with all of us...

Show us with REASON and with SCRIPTURE, Sos, how that makes ANY SENSE at all -- Isaiah 1:18


Like HERM... you probably won't... ...and when you DON'T... (I'll give enough time for you to come up with something) --

I shall give you revelation of "satan"... which defines the term, and IN that, ...has PURPOSE, and that ...has REASON... and neither the PURPOSE nor the REASON within it, ...contains DESTRUCTION of MEN... and is POSITIVE on their behalf, not NEGATIVE!

And which revelation has NOTHING whatsoever to do with any sort of "HELL" ...have at it, Sos... Tell us of your knowledge of "satan"...


PEACE...


...willieH

I decline your invitation, just like you declined to explain the 14 laughing smilies.

 

[createdtoworship]

Yeah,,, you can really CLEARLY see the "planet PLUTO" SIGN... without a doubt! ...NOT!

Lights in the sky do not = the "planet PLUTO"... Hey, since your into fantasy, ...isnt the bigger one in this ISOLATED and COMMON pic... the famouse, "planet MICKEY MOUSE?

even pluto exists as a cartoon character which happens to be "Mickey Mouses" dog.

do you not believe in the existence of this character or Mickey mouses cartoon character?

Here is a picture for you

if you still don't believe, here is an original drawing of mickey mouse by it's creator

surely drawings of mickey mouse exist willie?

 

[createdtoworship]

Hmmm... Hermeneutics? ...real BIBLICAL term.... more like MINDLESSNEUTICS

Nothing you have to offer, brings any FEAR whatsoever, laughter yes, FEAR? NOT A CHANCE!

As for me, the LOVE of YHVH casts OUT, ...ALL semblances of FEAR, and inserts HIS LOVE in my heart on a daily basis, as I fellowship with Him and His WORD...

Let's face it HERM, ...You are the one which is "AFRAID" of HELL... "believing" in GOD, hoping to escape your FEAR of it found wthiin your DEFILED RELIGION, instead of believing and knowing Him personally. -- 1 John 4:18 -- If you really KNEW Him (LOVE)... you would KNOW there is no such thing as HELL, nor would you have any FEAR of this IMAGINARY foolishness... But you DO... of your own choosing...

As well, ...you would LOVE ME, if your really had fellowship with GOD... not "squeeze out" a wish of PEACE, and then pat yourself on the back for that one instance! LOVE would be your habit... and it would come forth from you in EVERY post toward me. Not FORCED, but of a NATURAL HABIT which displays LOVE as living in your heart, and committment to bringing it to OTHERS.

But lo & behold, LOVE is one of the hardest things to come forth from you... as you do not KNOW it, ...NOR the GLORY of its presence, ...NOR the REASON found in its PURPOSE... which NOT vengent, and is NOT destructive, and is NOT seeking to torment men... rather is SO LOVING, that the supreme sacrifice was made for ALL MEN -- 1 Tim 2:6 -- in order to RECONCILE them ALL to Himself -- Col 1:20 -- 2 Cor 5:19 -- 1 Tim 4:9-11 -- Rom 5:18-20

What you "KNOW" Herm, is RELIGION... ...fixed in the CEMENT of TRADITION... both of which are DEFILED, both devoid of LOVE, ...a heart which has WAXED COLD... to be pitied.

Hey HERM... Let's see who "KNOWS" the WORD and who does NOT! Are you AFRAID?

A DEBATE requires the participants to ANSWER questions, instead of sidestepping them by generalizing, and thereby avoiding them. FAILING the premise of "debate"...

If you are up to it (which likely you are FEARFUL), why not post a ONE on ONE debate in which YOU will debate ME, during which I, who has NO FEAR of you and your "knowledge" ...and will easily answer YOU, ...but remember, ...YOU will be required to answer ME, and any questions asked of you...

Let's see shall which of us, is STUDIED and which one is NOT...

And since you think you "KNOW" what "satan" is, and "believe" this term to represent an "entity"... why not debate the subject with me? ...I'll even let you go FIRST! ...

Establish a REAL picture with Scripture, that "satan" is a "being"... and I will reply to it... and then YOU shall be questioned, and required to answer ME...

Are you AFRAID to do this, HERM?

Why not see WHO knows this subject and who DOES NOT... Areya "chicken", HERM?

Are you FEARFUL to do this? ...guess we shall see if you are up to a REAL, ...DEBATE... ...and if indeed you have a "bachelors degree", it should pose no problems for you to succesfully debate an "uneducated" one such as me, eh HERM? ...you should be CONFIDENT... being all "up to Biblical, snuff", ..."batchelor's degree" in tow, eh - HERM?

No copying of BOOKS which other theologians have worked to gather, NO "cut & paste" or copying... MAKE a case for your belief, with your "hermeneutical" talents... ...give us a concise INTERPRETATION... if you even have one...

lets see what YOU GOT, and what YOU "KNOW"...

I'm bettin' ...it ain't a whole bunch... ...I'm also bettin' you will CHOKE or "chicken out"! ...or make excuses...

PEACE.... and if you have yet to notice, ...from now on you are "Herm"


PEACE...

...willieH

Your debate is simply a clear understanding of Matthew four.

first of all this Devil is talking, do forces talk willie? (matt 4:3)

Secondly, the Devil had memorized verses of scripture. Does a force do that willie? (matt 4:5)

thirdly, Satan "took Him" twice to different places on planet earth. What force teleports people to different places willie? Answer me if you can.

Fourthly, this Being satan asks for worship. ( Matt 4:9) What force in the universe demands worship willie? Answer me if you can!

Fifthly, satan offers Jesus all the Kingdoms of the world and says that He posses them. What force can possess land willie?

Luke 4:6 And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it.

 

[WillieH]

14 laughing smilies?

To begin with you did not ASK for an "EXPLANATION" of the use of smilies... (in an effort to escape my "invitation" to you), but now that you have, ...I am more than willing to give one

Actually there are 17 laughing emoticons in two posts... reason being that I find it humorous that gradyll offers some obscure celestial picture as "proof" that "PLUTO" exists, and then EXPECTS me to accept his offering.

Science ridicules the PHOTOS of UFO's offered by the public, on a daily basis, yet EXPECTS that the PUBLIC must "ACCEPT" their offerings (such as gradyll's photos of "PLUTO") which are EVERY BIT as VAGUE - even MORESO, than photos of UFO's... ...which UFO photos quite often include actual EARTHLY landmarks... buildings, rivers, land locations, Planes, etc...

Now that I have complied with your "requirements", let us see what YOU have concerning "satan" and SCRIPTURALLY what "satan" ...IS...

Or shall you AVOID, as does gradyll? Trying to use the strawman of "14 smilies" as a deterent to actually DISCUSSING what "satan" ...IS...?

Guess we'll see - eh Sos?

PEACE...


...willieH