Let's Talk About Hell (4)

[Lisa*Lisa]

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[Timothew]

it's talking about punishment, you have to prove it's talking about death and not eternal torment.

It's talking about punishment, why should I assume the punishment is torment? If I assume the punishment is eternal torment in hell, then I am left with contradictions in the bible in all the places it says the wicked will be destroyed. However if the punishment in Matthew 25 is death, which is also eternal, then I don't have contradictions which Romans 6:23 and all of the passages that speak of the destruction of the wicked.

 

[he-man]

It's talking about punishment, why should I assume the punishment is torment? If I assume the punishment is eternal torment in hell, then I am left with contradictions in the bible in all the places it says the wicked will be destroyed. However if the punishment in Matthew 25 is death, which is also eternal, then I don't have contradictions which Romans 6:23 and all of the passages that speak of the destruction of the wicked.

Well, it is not a punishment, it is a penalty brought on by not obeying God. Adam was penalized for not obeying God and was penalized with the sentence of DEATH. Why would it be any different for people today.

The sentence is for some eternal life but for those who refuse to accept God the penalty is eternal DEATH. That is to say, DEATH, annihiliation forever.

The sentence for those who have known or became aware of the "TRUTH" but have refused or tried to translate it into a lie, will be the "2nd DEATH".

I cannot say what type of DEATH it might be, Cancer, Hit by a Semi while driving down the interstate, Shot in the head during a robbery, Killed by a Tornado........

There is no HELL.
There is no Torment.
There is nothing but DEATH for unbelievers.

2Ch 22:7 And the destruction of Ahaziah was of God by coming to Joram: for when he was come, he went out with Jehoram against Jehu the son of Nimshi, whom the LORD had anointed to cut off the house of Ahab.

2Ch 26:16 But when he was strong, his heart was lifted up to his destruction: for he transgressed against the LORD his God, and went into the temple of the LORD to burn incense upon the altar of incense.

Job 18:12 His strength shall be hungerbitten, and destruction ready at his side.

13 It shall devour the strength of his skin: even the firstborn of death shall devour his strength.

Job 21:17 How oft is the candle of the wicked put out! and how oft cometh their destruction upon them! God distributeth sorrows in his anger.

18 They are as stubble before the wind, and as chaff that the storm carrieth away.

Mal 4:1 For behold, the day cometh, burning as a furnace; and all the proud and all that work wickedness shall be stubble; and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith Jehovah of hosts, so that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.

2Pe 3:7 But the present heavens and the earth by his word are laid up in store, kept for fire unto a day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

 

[Timothew]

Gradyll borrowed Augustine's argument from Matt 25:46, that since aionian zoen is eternal life and life is conscious, then aionian kolasin has to be eternal conscious torment. He says "See, they both say aionian, so they are both eternal and conscious". Never mind that I keep telling these people that death is also eternal.

They think that because the Moment Death Occurs is one moment in time that death is not really eternal. People don't experience death eternally, so they think it isn't really eternal. It's the standard confusion, they want eternal punishment to mean eternally punishing.

Death is what naturally happens as a result of sin. God provides a way out of the natural consequence of sin, so we can have eternal life.

 

[LutheranMafia]

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[createdtoworship]

It's talking about punishment, why should I assume the punishment is torment? If I assume the punishment is eternal torment in hell, then I am left with contradictions in the bible in all the places it says the wicked will be destroyed. However if the punishment in Matthew 25 is death, which is also eternal, then I don't have contradictions which Romans 6:23 and all of the passages that speak of the destruction of the wicked.

never mind about death, you believe one thing and orthodoxy believes another.

here are my second and third points that you keep ignoring conveniently,

secondly the soul has to be eternal because satan and angels are eternal and it is them that share the experience of Hell with the wicked.

thirdly, the beast and the false prophet are in hell a thousand years in the Revelation. They will be tossed in before the millennium and abide until the end of the 1000 years when Satan is thrown in.

 

[createdtoworship]

Gradyll borrowed Augustine's argument from Matt 25:46, that since aionian zoen is eternal life and life is conscious, then aionian kolasin has to be eternal conscious torment. He says "See, they both say aionian, so they are both eternal and conscious". Never mind that I keep telling these people that death is also eternal.

They think that because the Moment Death Occurs is one moment in time that death is not really eternal. People don't experience death eternally, so they think it isn't really eternal. It's the standard confusion, they want eternal punishment to mean eternally punishing.

Death is what naturally happens as a result of sin. God provides a way out of the natural consequence of sin, so we can have eternal life.

If eternal punishment doesn't actually mean eternal then your definition of aionion is non eternal

Matt. 25:41, "Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal (aionion) fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;"

this verse doesn't say that they die, it just says they will go into the fire.

 

[Timothew]

never mind about death, you believe one thing and orthodoxy believes another.

here are my second and third points that you keep ignoring conveniently,

secondly the soul has to be eternal because satan and angels are eternal and it is them that share the experience of Hell with the wicked.

thirdly, the beast and the false prophet are in hell a thousand years in the Revelation. They will be tossed in before the millennium and abide until the end of the 1000 years when Satan is thrown in.

Who died and made orthodoxy god? I believe the truth, orthodoxy believes a screwy story about eternal torment in hell.

The soul has to be eternal because satan and angels are eternal? And it is them that share the experience of Hell with the wicked?
Have you ever heard the term circular reasoning?
Are you honestly saying that I should believe that the soul is eternal because it will be tortured in hell for eternity? And the reason I should believe the soul will be tortured in hell for all eternity is because the soul is eternal? Even if Satan and the angels are eternal, that doesn't prove that souls are eternal. You haven't even defined what a soul is.

For your third point, I wouldn't base my proof on the millenium.
The church can't even agree on what the millenium is.

Also you are so incoherent that I can't keep your point straight.

 

[Timothew]

Wow, the original "Let's talk about hell" thread was started on May 3rd, 2010.
It's still going.

 

[createdtoworship]

Who died and made orthodoxy god? I believe the truth, orthodoxy believes a screwy story about eternal torment in hell.

the tradition of theology through the ages proves that God's eternal church has existed without Gaps in it.

Even if Satan and the angels are eternal, that doesn't prove that souls are eternal.

they go to the same destination Tim, don't you remember?

For your third point, I wouldn't base my proof on the millenium.
The church can't even agree on what the millenium is.

where in the Bible does it say millenium?

where in the Bible does it say Millenium?

I was talking about A thousand years

"till the thousand years should be fulfilled:" Revelation 20:3

"reigned with Christ a thousand years" Revelation 20:4

"until the thousand years were finished" Revelation 20:5


If the thousand years are not literal then the resurrection and the second death is not literal either as they are in the same verse

"6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. " Revelation 20:6

Secondly, you didn't reply to my post 7 about the definition of "eternal" fire.

 

[Timothew]

If eternal punishment doesn't actually mean eternal then your definition of aionion is non eternal

Eternal punishment does mean eternal. I never said eternal punishment doesn't actually mean eternal. It just doesn't mean eternal conscious torment. Eternal Death is also an eternal punishment. So your verse does nothing to disprove conditional immortality.

By the way, what do you believers in eternal conscious torment like to be called? I've heard the term "tormentalist", that seems to fit well. But I have no interest in insulting you. I've also heard the terms "torturist" and "torturismist", but I don't want to use them, because it sounds like you guys are the ones doing the torturing, when you claim it is God or Satan who does the torturing. So what term should I use? It should be something that defines your belief in eternal conscious torment.

 

[Timothew]

where in the Bible does it say millenium?

where in the Bible does it say Millenium?

What???
You brought up the millenium, not me. So quit your complaining about it.

Secondly, you didn't reply to my post 7 about the definition of "eternal" fire.

Yes I did, the posts must have crossed. The post was at 3:34.

 

[Timothew]

Secondly, you didn't reply to my post 7 about the definition of "eternal" fire.

Also, I am not an answer machine that you can put coins into and get a snappy answer back. I am a person, a living soul.

 

[createdtoworship]

What???
You brought up the millenium, not me. So quit your complaining about it.

I said a thousand years not millenium. But millenium means a thousand, but that word technically isn't in the Bible.

Yes I did, the posts must have crossed. The post was at 3:34.

here it is again

Matt. 25:41, "Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal (aionion) fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;"

this proves that the wicked will suffer eternal fire

 

[Mikecpking]

I said a thousand years not millenium. But millenium means a thousand, but that word technically isn't in the Bible.



here it is again

Matt. 25:41, "Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal (aionion) fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;"

this proves that the wicked will suffer eternal fire

This is a clear reference to the lake of fire.

The only open question is would the suffering be without ending or come to an end when God's wrath would be fully satisfied?

 

[createdtoworship]

This is a clear reference to the lake of fire.

The only open question is would the suffering be without ending or come to an end when God's wrath would be fully satisfied?

the key word is aionion, meaning eternal. His wrath is never satisfied in this case. Thats the wrong word to use if your wrath was only temporary.

 

[he-man]

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Exactly, you are nothing, destroyed, annhiliated, vaporized, there is no conditional immortality.

1Co 13:2 And though I have prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not LOVE, I am nothing.

 

[createdtoworship]

Also, I am not an answer machine that you can put coins into and get a snappy answer back. I am a person, a living soul.

I could pay you in blessings, if you answer correctly that is. So you are a vending machine

 

[Timothew]

I could pay you in blessings, if you answer correctly that is. So you are a vending machine

OK, how many blessings do I get for this answer? I think you'll get some.

Try this: Talk to God, Pray something like, LORD God, what do you want me know about this? What are you like? What happens when people die?
Is there a hell like I've always been taught? If there is, how can I convince Tim? If there isn't, why can't I see that?

Then, after you are done praying and while you are praying, get into God's word, study it everyday. Keep asking Him to teach, Ignore me completely. Focus on God. Forget about hell for a while. Come back to it. Wrestle with God, Argue with God, Shout at God, Beg God, whatever it takes. Keep studying the bible, Let God speak to you. Forget about our voices.

I don't want to convince you, I want you to know truth, even if it isn't "my truth".

 

[createdtoworship]

OK, how many blessings do I get for this answer? I think you'll get some.

Try this: Talk to God, Pray something like, LORD God, what do you want me know about this? What are you like? What happens when people die?
Is there a hell like I've always been taught? If there is, how can I convince Tim? If there isn't, why can't I see that?

Then, after you are done praying and while you are praying, get into God's word, study it everyday. Keep asking Him to teach, Ignore me completely. Focus on God. Forget about hell for a while. Come back to it. Wrestle with God, Argue with God, Shout at God, Beg God, whatever it takes. Keep studying the bible, Let God speak to you. Forget about our voices.

I don't want to convince you, I want you to know truth, even if it isn't "my truth".

I don't have to pray about it to come to the conclusion you have, I just have to listen to the door knockers.