Let's Talk About Hell (4)

[LittleLambofJesus]

silence about something proves nothing at all.
This proves nothing either as when in the whale he was not dead at all in fact he was completely alive and able to think, eat, and speak.

True dat!

Young) Matthew 12:40 for as Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights, so shall the Son of Man be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights.

http://www.christianforums.com/t6739253/
Jonah, Jesus and Paul

 

[he-man]

True dat! Young) Matthew 12:40 for as Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights, so shall the Son of Man be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights.

Huh???
Christ speaks of in the foregoing verse; and a very great sign and miracle it was, that being swallowed down by such a fish, he should remain in the belly of it three days and three nights, as one dead; for, without a miracle, he could not have lived an hour; and on the third day, as one raised from the dead, be cast out of it upon the dry land; which was a very eminent type of the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ, as appears by what follows. [GILL]

it was revealed, that you might understand
Heb 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

Psa 49:15 But God will redeem my spirit from the power of the grave: for he shall receive me. Selah

Mr 15:37 And letting go in a great voice, Jesus breathed out.

43 Came Joseph from Arimathea, a decent figure, an assembly man, who also, himself, was for the receiving of the gift of the Kingdom of God, and having dared entered in to Pilate and asked for the body of Jesus.

44 And Pilate wondered if he was already laid down: and bidding the centurion before him, he asked him if he had already died.

45 And having known from the centurion, he presented the corpse to Joseph.

Is 43:10 You are My witness, said GOD, and servant who I have chosen: so that you may know and believe Me, to understand that I am He: before Me there was no God formed, nor shall there exist1 after Me.

1* Hebrew יהיה to be, exist, be present; happen, occur, take place: become, turn into

De 4:35 Unto you Is 43:10 You are My witness, said GOD, and servant who I have chosen: so that you may know and believe Me, to understand that I am He: before Me there was no God formed, nor shall there exist1 after Me.

1* Hebrew יהיה to be, exist, be present; happen, occur, take place: become, turn into

De 4:35 Unto you it was revealed, that you might understand since Jehovah, He is God; there is none else besides Him.

 

[LutheranMafia]

Well... please provide WHO and UPON WHAT AUTHORITY, ...has defined the use of CAPS as "yelling"...

That is how everyone has percieved it for many years, if you are not aware.

About "lunatic ravings", ...lunatic compared to WHO? YOU? Are YOU our measure, LM?

I'm not constantly yelling at everyone.

What have I said that (in your opinion) contained "LUNACY"? And why might you call them "RAVINGS"? Because they might be in disagreement with YOU, LM?

I disagree with he-man and Timothew, but I don't call them lunatics because they don't perpetually yell at everyone.

Let's face it, ...these remarks of yours are just unfounded... and more whining than anything else.

Let's face it, you are fanatic who likes to yell and sneer.

I do apologize if indeed I have caused any hurt feelings! (although such should not enter into debate/discussion if they are so sensitive)...

You can't have hurt my feelings since you have never addressed me before now.

I use CAPS, italics, boldings and colorizations for emphasis and/or respect toward GOD and His Son [CHRIST, YHVH]... and did not realize that you (or anyone else), might be so easily offended by typewritten words...

I am not offended by yelling, it is just obnoxious in it's own right.

BTW... why not address what I say, instead of gossiping to others about me, LM?

If you encountered someone who was yelling on the street would you try to approach them for a discussion?

 

[LutheranMafia]

Perhaps we should establish what everyone feels death and a soul are and what course they take.

An unusually rational approach coming from someone of the annihilationist side. I had a feeling on seeing your first post that you would prove to be a much more coherent person. But you have still not addressed the critical distinction here. It is not good enough just to delineate the course of a soul, what must be addressed is the distinction between soul and spirit. Though similar in many ways, soul and spirit are not interchangeable:

For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow...
Hebrews 4:12
​

So soul and spirit are not the same thing, nor interchangeable. What then is the nature of the distinction between soul and spirit?

The soul who sins shall die.
Ezekiel 18:20

And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matthew 10:28
​

So the soul can be destroyed, but nowhere in scripture does it speak of spirit death. Indeed Jude 1:12-13 suggests to the contrary:

...twice dead. They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom nether gloom has been reserved forever.
Jude 1:12-13
​

Twice dead refers to the second death (Revelation 2:11, Revelation 20:6, Revelation 20:14 & Revelation 21:8). The second death is soul death. There is no third death, the spirit cannot die.

Soul is like spirit in many ways but it is intermediary between body and spirit. Indeed the soul is said to be tied to the blood in Leviticus 17:11.

For the life (the animal soul) is in the blood, and I have given it for you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes atonement, by reason of the life [which it represents].
Leviticus 17:11
​

Also there is 1 Samuel 25:26 which ties the soul to blood:

So now, my lord, as the Lord lives and as your soul lives, seeing that the Lord has prevented you from bloodguiltiness...
1 Samuel 25:26
​

Spirit on the other hand is not tied to any physical manifestation of the self. It is only tied to thoughts.

So back to Jude 1:12-13. Damned spirits wander in nether gloom for eternity, even after the second death--the death of the soul. They become soulless spirits, in addition to being bodyless spirits, as happens after the first death.

 

[Sophrosyne]

it was revealed, that you might understand
Heb 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

This is all I had to read of this post.... It says it all.

 

[Timothew]

it was revealed, that you might understand
Heb 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

Psa 49:15 But God will redeem my spirit from the power of the grave: for he shall receive me. Selah

Mr 15:37 And letting go in a great voice, Jesus breathed out.

43 Came Joseph from Arimathea, a decent figure, an assembly man, who also, himself, was for the receiving of the gift of the Kingdom of God, and having dared entered in to Pilate and asked for the body of Jesus.

44 And Pilate wondered if he was already laid down: and bidding the centurion before him, he asked him if he had already died.

45 And having known from the centurion, he presented the corpse to Joseph.

Is 43:10 You are My witness, said GOD, and servant who I have chosen: so that you may know and believe Me, to understand that I am He: before Me there was no God formed, nor shall there exist1 after Me.

1* Hebrew יהיה to be, exist, be present; happen, occur, take place: become, turn into

De 4:35 Unto you Is 43:10 You are My witness, said GOD, and servant who I have chosen: so that you may know and believe Me, to understand that I am He: before Me there was no God formed, nor shall there exist1 after Me.

1* Hebrew יהיה to be, exist, be present; happen, occur, take place: become, turn into

De 4:35 Unto you it was revealed, that you might understand since Jehovah, He is God; there is none else besides Him.

Matthew 28:13
"You are to say, 'His disciples came during the night and stole him away while we were asleep'."

Evidentally since that story didn't work out too well, now the story is that Jesus didn't really die at all. Or he was travelling in an alternate universe.

 

[WillieH]

willieH: Hi TW...


I have agreed with some of your points in this convo... this is how I see these offerings of yours... ...I will only address the first point you make in this post, maybe later some of the others...


This will be extensive, so you are welcome to read it or not. But in DEPTH of SPIRITUALITY is where TRUTH is found... Not in the common practice of peripheral carnality.


Before I begin... you are more than welcome to disagree with what I say,

As I see it, ...LOGIC and REASON -- Isaiah 1:18 -- as we are INVITED to IT, ...must be applied to all observations of the WORD, along with the inherent CHARACTERISTICS of YHVH God, such as LOVE, GRACE, MERCY and FORGIVENESS -- Rom 1:20 -- 1 John 4:8, 18 -- Matt 5:38-48 --

As well as the STATED DESIRES and INTENTS of GOD -- 2 Pet 3:9 -- otherwise... meaning extracted from the Scripture (which disincludes these)... are (as I see it), therefore SPIRITUALLY and TRUTHFULLY, both BLANK, and ...INVALID.


----->


IOW, if we are investigating things in Scripture, and then OMIT in that process, ...who GOD "is" (LOVE), ...what He "desires" (to SAVE the WORLD), and ...what He "intends" (that NONE PERISH)... leaving all these OUT of our investigation, ...then we are completely leaving out the ESSENCES of the SOURCE which is THAT which we seek and study!


Which is really no different than the leaving out of COLOR and CLOUDS, ...from a painting of the SUNSET...

Scripture most certainly does speak of a place of fire where wicked people will be “punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord” (2 Thess. 1:9).

Before I begin my address of this verse, ...Anyone which is familiar at all with foreign language, will KNOW that literal/equal/exact translation of one term directly into another, is not only - NOT available often, many if not most foreign languages are also formatted completely different than English...


Also keeping in mind that, ANY translation into English is ---

(1) potentially erroneous ---
(2) contain religious bias (due to the beliefs of the ones translating) ---
(3) is accomplished by honorable, albeit SINFUL men and women which are, as are we all, subject to SPIRITUAL error and/or truthful revelation...


Here goes bro (including the verses prior to, and after, your above named verse):




2 Thess 1:8 -- in flaming fire taking vengence on them that KNOW not God, and that obey NOT the GOSPEL of our Lord JESUS CHRIST...


9 -- who shall be punished with [AIONIOS - #G166 - derivitive of AION/Time related term] destruction [#G3639 - OIETHROS-derivitive of Olllumi] from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power...


10 -- when He shall come to be glorified in His saints, and to be admired in all them that BELIEVE (because our testimony among you was BELIEVED) IN THAT DAY...



I maintain that this TEXT is speaking of that which is going on NOW, not describing a HORROR of some "future" event. The "coming" of JESUS is the SAME -- yesterday, today, and forever -- Heb 13:8 -- so JESUS' coming is unchanging in ALL times in which SINFUL men exist.


The Lake of FIRE/PUR (symbolic terminology, found ONLY in the book of Revelation - which is the REVEALING of JESUS CHRIST) ...I maintain that the event noted in -- 2 Thess 1:9 -- is indeed NOW, and has been ON-GOING, since the beginning... Which finds its symbolism in the BURNING BUSH -- Ex 3:2-4 -- (which "bush" is amidst FIRE, yet not consumed by it)... WE are IN YHVH -- Acts 28:17 -- yet are not consumed...

Moses was instructed to remove his shoes, for they are products of the SINFUL, which defiled HOLY GROUND. We must cast away the products of men, in the very same spirit.

Just as Adam "died" in the DAY that He ATE, yet continued to "live"...

GOD IS a CONSUMING FIRE... but what is it that He IS CONSUMING? -- 1 Cor 3:11-15 -- It is the varying EVIL acts and moments which are manifest of men, ...NOT the men, themselves... for the MEN (as demonstrated by the "bush" not being "consumed") ...are the OBJECTS of His LOVE!






FIRST -- Only via the AUTHORING (generating) of FAITH, which is done BY JESUS CHRIST, can ANYONE believe -- Heb 12:2 -- so ONLY when that "authoring" takes place, can anyone "believe".

Without that "authoring", ...belief and/or faith, ...is not available to ANY man. NO MAN "believes" just because he/she might "decide" to do so...

Also,

(1) -- that "authoring" cannot even occur, except the POWER of YHVH draw (drag) them unto JESUS -- John 6:44 -- (the word DRAW actually in the Greek means to DRAG -- look it up!)



As well,

(2) -- only via the WORD and ITS REVELATION which is given OF IT, can one behold the Father -- Matt 11:27


As well,

(3) -- only via the EMPOWERMENT and DECISION of GOD, can one REPENT -- Rom 2:4 -- and then CONFESS that JESUS is Lord, unto SALVATION -- 1 Cor 12:3


So the "FAITH" one must have in order to --- "BELIEVE", as well as the act which engages our vision of YHVH, and His SALVATION... and the GRACE which provides it, ...is ALL DONE by HIM, of HIS DOING, and TIMING, not of our own -- Eph 2:8-9


9 -- who shall be punished with [AIONIOS #G166 - derivitive of AION/Time related term] destruction [#3639 OIETHROS-derivitive of Olllumi] from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power...



Let's examine a few of the pivotal words in this TEXT:



AIONIOS is a derivitive word, from AION which means AGE or TIME... the "apple" does not fall far from the tree, as is exampled in the example of AIONIOS as applied in -- Jude 7 -- which notes the word as "eternal" as applied to the fire of SODOM & GOMORRAH... which 'fire' began (negating it from being eternal) and wjhich 'fire' is no longer BURNING (also negating it from being eternal)


OIETHROS -- a derivitive word of OLLUMI -- which means DESTRUCTION -- Again, the "apple" does not fall far from the tree... also derivitive of OLLUMI is APOLLUMI = DESTRUCTION (combination of apo=separated/ollumi=destroyed) which is translated as LOST concerning the "LOST" COIN, SHEEP and SON in -- Luke 15:4-9 -- ALL of which eventually became ...FOUND! (=UNdestroyed).

Also, this verse says "from the presence of the Lord" -- this (as I see it) is rightly noted as BECAUSE of, or DUE to, the presence of the Lord"

I do not see it possible that this text conveys -- "shut out" from the presence of YHVH, ...as the PRESENCE of YHVH God is EVERYWHERE -- Psalm 139:8 -- King David even noted (under the direction of GOD) that whether in HEAVEN or, ...in "Hell" (which is actually grave)... GOD is THERE... GOD is EVERYWHERE... which means He IS not ABSENT from ANYWHERE!



SECOND --- Now let's look at the verse PRIOR to your reference:

2 Thess 1:8 -- in flaming fire taking vengence on them that KNOW not God, and that obey NOT the GOSPEL of our Lord JESUS CHRIST...


Is not the Lord GLORIFIED -- NOW, by the presence of LIGHT in His believers amidst the DARKNESS of this WORLD?


And is not the "FIRE" of vengence seen in the myriad presence of SORROWS in this WORLD, ...NOW? One must be BLIND not to see this. The WORLD grows DARKER each DAY, as the SORROWS exponentially increase...

The sufferings of INCURABLE diseases, IMMENSE pain, starvation, loss of love, death, natural disasters (remember Sodom & Gomorrah), disappointments, homelessness, irreverance and indifference, the "sorrow filled" LIST is literally ENDLESS! This WORLD is literally FULL of SORROW. (which means to me that the end of it, is certainly near)


Just as ADAM "died" on the day he ate, and yet "LITERALLY" continued to LIVE, ...is the FIRE of vengence present, yet "LITERALLY" NOT burning... -- Rom 1:18 -- the WRATH of GOD ...IS... (not will) come against ALL unrighteousness, and ungodliness OF men -- Psalm 90:9 -- For ALL our DAYS are passed always in THY WRATH, we spend our days as a tale told.


The "FIRE" of GOD (as was the death of ADAM in the "day he ate") is SPIRITUAL -- Rev 3:18 -- The TRIALS of the GOLD (SINLESSNESS) of JESUS took place IN THIS REALM! NOT in some mythical HORROR chamber (HELL) in which GOD is supposedly "absent"!!!





THIRD --- Now, let's look at the verse AFTER your reference:


10 -- when He shall come to be glorified in His saints, and to be admired in all them that BELIEVE (because our testimony among you was BELIEVED) IN THAT DAY...



Is He not come to be GLORIFIED in the Hearts of those OBEDIENT to His WORD, Bro? IN THIS ...DAY? (once again, ...remember Adam's "death" in the "DAY of his eating")...


The OBEDIENCE of CHRIST are the moments which shall ABIDE forever -- 1 Cor 3:11-15 -- which took place, are taking place, will be taking place IN THIS REALM, ...NOW! And the JUDGMENT of the DISOBEDIENCE is being DESTROYED in these very same MOMENTS -- which is NOW -- John 12:49 -- in the which MEN shall REAP of EVIL which they SOW!


As I said at the beginning of this post...

This text is NOT speaking of (the mythical) "HELL", ...in which most "believe"... Nor is "HELL" even mentioned in the text,...

Said "HELL" remains,

(1) ...CONTRARY to LOGIC and REASON = INFINITE punishment for FINITE offenses... as UNREASONABLE as using a NUCLEAR WEAPON to punish a man which stole a penny from a billionaire...

(2) ...CONTRARY to the CHARACTERISTICS of YHVH (LOVE, GRACE, MERCY and FORGIVENESS), as well as,

(3) ...CONTRARY to the stated DESIRES and INTENTS of YHVH

(4) ...CONTRARY to the OMNIPRESENCE of YHVH, ...

It is speaking of NOW... as we ARE IN the ...LAKE OF FIRE... and which JUDGMENT is taking place (according to CHRIST), ...NOW! -- John 12:31

You are welcome to disagree... your choice.

Back in the Day... not many of "God's people"... BELIEVED JESUS when He came to DIE for them.


PEACE...


...willieH

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Matthew 28:13
"You are to say, 'His disciples came during the night and stole him away while we were asleep'."

Evidentally since that story didn't work out too well, now the story is that Jesus didn't really die at all. Or he was travelling in an alternate universe.

Would make for an interesting thread

http://www.christianforums.com/t1045027-2/#post10026154
2 Thessalonians 2:7-11

Matt 27:64 Oder thou! then to be secured/asfalisqhnai <805> (5683) the sepulcher till the third day, lest coming the Disciples of Him should be stealing Him and may be saying to the people 'He was roused from the dead' and shall be the last deception/planh <4106> worst than the first. [Matt 28:13-15]

Matt 28:13saying, "say ye!, that his Disciples having come by night stole Him, we being asleep; 14 and if this be heard by the governor, we will persuade him, and you keep free from anxiety."
15 And they having received the money, did as they were taught, and this account was spread abroad among Jews till this day.

2 Thess 2:11 and because of this, the God is sending them an in-working/energeian <1753> of-deception/planhV <4106>, into the to believe them to the falsehood

 

[WillieH]

willieH: Hi LM...

That is how everyone has percieved it for many years, if you are not aware.

Oh, you speak for EVERYONE doya? ...well, I am amongst everyone, and I do not need you to speak for me.

Many things are "percieved" erroneously. And btw... you have YET to name the reference which notes "DEBATE ETHICS".


I have nothing against you LM... you are just making a mountain out of a molehill...

I'm not constantly yelling at everyone.

More EXAGGERATION...

Neither am I --- certainly NOT, ...constantly "yelling"... your perceptions of me are INCORRECT. ...thinking you KNOW me enough to criticize me, when you haven't even the slightest idea who and what I am and have been within life... KNOWING absolutely NOTHING about me.

I disagree with he-man and Timothew, but I don't call them lunatics because they don't perpetually yell at everyone.

Same answer... and more EXAGGERATION -- "Perpetually yell"? Please... I am a singer/musician by profession, and do not "perpetually yell" ...do you even KNOW the meaning of PERPETUAL, lm?

But hey, ...thanks for admitting to being a name caller... confession is good for the soul.

Let's face it, you are fanatic who likes to yell and sneer.

"Let's face it" you like to name-call!

And for goodness sake, ...you appear to have no sense of humor! ...why not relax a little, bro...

If you are referring to my use of emoticons, maybe you are just complaining because you are unsuccessful in the use them...

I have nothing against you, don't even know you, and to this point, not really interested in knowing you.

There are sourpusses everywhere... It is my habit to smile at them whenever they FROWN at me...

You can't have hurt my feelings since you have never addressed me before now.

Here you are complaining... then all of a suddent you are not affected? I think you need an appointment for some counselling, bro...

I am not offended by yelling, it is just obnoxious in it's own right.

Well I do not YELL... I emphasize... if you INSIST that my usage of CAPS is YELLING, after I have CLEARLY told you otherwise, ...then there is not much I can do forya.

If you encountered someone who was yelling on the street would you try to approach them for a discussion?

I have apologized that your perception of my usages of these was recieved negatively, here:

Originally Posted by WillieH

I do apologize if indeed I have caused any hurt feelings! (although such should not enter into debate/discussion if they are so sensitive)...
​

If that ain't good enough forya... oh-well?

No matter how much you shall beat this dead horse, ...you shall have no further apology from me about this matter.

I have already CLEARLY explained my usages of CAPS, italics, boldings and colorizations... and that my usage of them is strictly for EMPHASIS, and/or RESPECT to the DIVINE...

That you do not accept this and continue to rant about it, is due to your own sour grapes.


PEACE...


...willieH

 

[Timothew]

Perhaps we should establish what everyone feels death and a soul are and what course they take. Would someone like to volunteer?

Well, this website is supposed to predict when a person is going to die.
The Death Clock - When Am I Going To Die?
My death day is May 11, 2063.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by tackattack Perhaps we should establish what everyone feels death and a soul are and what course they take. Would someone like to volunteer?

Well, this website is supposed to predict when a person is going to die.
The Death Clock - When Am I Going To Die?
My death day is May 11, 2063.

 

[createdtoworship]

That you suggest JESUS going in & out of "dimensions", and thereby "paying" an INFINITE price, for a FINITE error, ...is nothing but speculative earthly observation, as "DIMENSIONS" are not even suggested in the WORD of God... nor is there any suggestion that JESUS did anything but DIE as an UNBLEMISHED and HOLY sacrifice for our SIN... and was RAISED after 3 days IN DEATH, by the Father...

NO doings of JESUS, while He was in DEATH are suggested by Scripture! Show me one!

No traveling between "dimensions" is suggested in Scripture, either!

Just because I disagree with your position and am able to substanciate that which I believe in my observations of the WORD, ...WITH the WORD, (and YOU do NOT) does not mean that I need any course in "ethics"... I have CLEARLY stated my case WITH SCRIPTURE not just opinion, as do you.



Peace...


...willieH

Jesus can navigate dimensions you can be sure of that. Jesus is God and therefore by definition omnipresent. No way out of that one.

The rest of this post is not mentioned in the Bible, but it has good roots in information technology and physics which are being brought up in this forum recently.

why the soul is eternal and why hell must be as well

The soul is software not hardware. And if it is software it has no mass....

the weight of an empty floppy disk is .8 ounce. But a completely full one is still .8 ounce. Software has no mass, but controls the way the machine operates.

The mass of the floppy disk is .8 ounce, and will remain .8 ounce regardless of whether its individual magnetic particles are charged in a positive or negative manner. It's the pattern of neg (0) and pos (1) polarity of the existing particles already on the disk that make up what we call "software", not whether the disk is empty (which it is not) or full (also, which it is not)

the soul is just the software of the human body...it's information in the neurons

all non-material entities (e.g. information,
consciousness, intelligence and will) are massless and thus
have zero weight. Information is always based on an idea;
it is thus also massless and does not arise from physical
or chemical processes.

time is the fourth dimension (a physical property)

time varies with mass, acceleration, and gravity. For a person travelling at 99% the speed of light, Time slows for them by a factor of 7 If they were to travel to a star 7 light years away, at 99% speed of light, it would take them 1 year, but to an observer on Earth it would have seemed like 7 years.

Time needs mass to operate, because time varies with mass, acceleration, and gravity.

so since the soul has no mass, the soul is outside of time (space time=space or volume/mass + time)

By default the soul HAS to be eternal.

Hell must be eternal as well.

Beyond Time and Space with Chuck Missler - YouTube

Time a Physical property - YouTube

more info:

http://www.mass-gravity.com/

 

[Truth_Warrior]

?????????????

















































Toto I don't think we are in Kansas anymore.

 

[createdtoworship]

?????????????

Toto I don't think we are in Kansas anymore.

Time needs mass to operate, because time varies with mass, acceleration, and gravity.

so since the soul has no mass, the soul is outside of time.

By default the soul HAS to be eternal.

Hell must be eternal as well.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

?????????????
Toto I don't think we are in Kansas anymore.

They of course were in the great state of Texas

http://www.christianforums.com/t7252915/#post53054371
Space Monkies.

Flying Monkeys attack - YouTube

 

[Sophrosyne]

Time needs mass to operate, because time varies with mass, acceleration, and gravity.

so since the soul has no mass, the soul is outside of time.

By default the soul HAS to be eternal.

Hell must be eternal as well.

Interesting premise, what if there is no time in Hell would it matter if the soul had no mass or not? Without the passage of time as we know it you would not age thus in a sense you would be eternal.

 

[createdtoworship]

Interesting premise, what if there is no time in Hell would it matter if the soul had no mass or not? Without the passage of time as we know it you would not age thus in a sense you would be eternal.

space time requires mass/volume and space. I would say that time would not affect a soul, because the soul has no volume or mass. I would say at least with physics in the equation that it is inaccurate to say that time is not in Hell. Because even if Hell existed at a higher dimension it would still rely on the previous dimensions to exist. Just like we rely on height, width, and length. But time does not exist without it's three previous dimensions involved, which is volume/or mass. IF the soul doesn't have mass then it has no volume and thus no time. I believe it is the true definition of eternal.

 

[Sophrosyne]

space time requires mass/volume and space. I would say that time would not affect a soul, because the soul has no volume or mass. I would say at least with physics in the equation that it is inaccurate to say that time is not in Hell. Because even if Hell existed at a higher dimension it would still rely on the previous dimensions to exist. Just like we rely on height, width, and length. But time does not exist without it's three previous dimensions involved, which is volume/or mass. IF the soul doesn't have mass then it has no volume and thus no time. I believe it is the true definition of eternal.

That assumes God cannot make a universe with different laws of physics where the relationships of space and time are not the same. The problem we have with trying to figure out heaven and hell is we presuppose that the laws of those dimensions/universes/etc follow the same rules (which God set up BTW) as our universe does. This is what I was trying to equate to annihilists that insist God follow their presupposed logic when his logic is higher than ours.

 

[WillieH]

Jesus can navigate dimensions you can be sure of that. Jesus is God and therefore by definition omnipresent. No way out of that one.

More blab that is nothing but HEARSAY and UNBIBLICAL speculation...

SURE of that? On what basis, can we be... "SURE of that", ...gradyll? Because YOU have said it? Please! You're gonna have to do MUCH better than that!

But for the record... that JESUS, ...(being the OFFSPRING and) Son of YHVH can certainly "do" anything... is NOT at all argued by me, ...

However, even JESUS does not "do or practice" NON-EXISTENT, and IRRELEVANT things... ...such as the EVER UNPROVEN... and NON-EXISTENT --- "inter-dimensional" navigation...

First it must be PROVEN that indeed there ARE "dimensions" aside from the ones that can be experienced within the LIFE given us...

Until then the point and suggestion of said "dimensions" which are supposedly, ...outside the parameters of height, width, length (possibly time), ARE NOTHING but... an UNPROVEN point and baseless conjecture which is a, ..."mooter"...

The rest of this post is not mentioned in the Bible, but it has good roots in information technology and physics which are being brought up in this forum recently.

why the soul is eternal and why hell must be as well

Hold on there hoss... not so fast... with these, your latest words... Being of the COMPLETELY UNPROVEN variety... ...As well,

I claim ...FOUL! And hereby BIBLICALLY CHALLENGE these words to be FALSE!

In the above quote, you base ONE UNPROVEN and NON EXISTENT entity as being "eternal" -- HELL, ...upon a fallacy concerning another NON-ETERNAL entity (the SOUL)

ETERNAL implies both --- WITHOUT ----> BEGINNING or END...

According to the BIBLE (not your conjecture), there are TWO FINITE limitations concerning the existence of the SOUL, and BOTH of these limitations certainly ...ARE... mentioned in the Bible:

Ez 18:20 -- notes the DEATH of the SOUL that SINS (end/or at the very least - INTERRUPTION of LIFE of the SOUL)... and therefore said "SOUL" is therefore, NOT "eternal"... CEASING in DEATH.

Gen 2:7 -- which notes that MAN ...BECOMES... a living "SOUL". Prior to "becoming" "LIVING", ...the SOUL is a NON-EXISTENT entity... and therefore NOT "eternal"... having to BECOME a SOUL... which LIVES.

As far as your claim that the SOUL "is" eternal...

Where in the Scriptures do THEY SAY that the SOUL "is eternal", gradyll? Outside of YOUR words, ...the Scriptures clearly claim a SOUL becomes living, then ceases in death -- Not one, but, ...TWO FINITE limitations which VOID an "ETERNAL" existence.

Until you can cite said Scripture (originating from the ETERNAL and DIVINE WORD of YHVH God), ...these words are nothing but more words of hearsay and unproven conjecture, originating from you... and from your finite mind... instead of ORIGINATING from the WORD of TRUTH.

The soul is software not hardware. And if it is software it has no mass....

Yeah right... if you can, ...PROVE this for those observing this convo... show us:

Where in the WORD, does GOD note the SOUL to be "software", and that it "has no mass"? ...C'mon gradyll... you know this is a lot of appealing to UNBIBLICAL fallacy... and is unworthy to be accepted.

the weight of an empty floppy disk is .8 ounce. But a completely full one is still .8 ounce. Software has no mass, but controls the way the machine operates.

Exactly, but what does that have to do with the SPIRITUAL? ...a CD-R "weighs" the same whether it is blank or filled to its capacity... But what has this to do with anything?

So sorry gradyll, ...your assertions and appeals do not PROVE anything concerning the SOUL... let's have some SCRIPTURAL proof there, ...Mr. Christian...

WARE in the WORD is "hardware" or "software" mentioned? If you would like a "Hint": NO-WARE!

time is the fourth dimension (a physical property)

I have done extensive study about TIME and ETERNITY... (TIME= LIFE in TURMOIL, motion, and unrest --- ETERNITY=LIFE in PEACE stillness and rest) and I believe these 2 to be OPPOSITE of one another, and spiritual investigation of this, ...will bring forth the answers to MANY of the UNANSWERABLE and EXISTENT MYSTERIES on the earth (dinosaurs, ancient technologies, etc), ...but that is another subject.


Though this subject (contending that time is a "dimension") can easily be argued, ...this is a somewhat acceptable statement (first one that you have made in this post).

It can be easily argued that TIME (as a "dimension" or anything else) does not at all exist, ...and that the past, present and future are ALL, ...nothiing but "NOW" which is become, in motion without REST or PEACE... for NOW is the ONLY "TIME" that is AVAILABLE within the LIVING EXPERIENCE...

YESTERDAY, or a MOMENT "ago" ...is AS INACCESSABLE as is, ...TOMORROW or a MOMENT "from this one"... and neither can ...be experienced NOW.

TIME on some levels can be a

(1) physically measureable quantity (but stiil is NOW in motion) and,
(2) is therefore an OBSERVED "quantity"...

Which HAD a BEGINNING, and is SURE to come to an END, ("beginning and ending" in JESUS - the Alpha and Omega) and which by the way, IS NOT @ PEACE, due to its CORROSIVE/DESTRUCTIVE motion...

It is also quite pertinent that Scripture notes that we must become STILL --- in (a "timeless") PEACE --- to KNOW that YHVH IS God -- Psalm 46:10

JESUS clearly taught His followers, to NOT to be involved in tomorrow, TODAY, ...but LIVE in the Day (NOW), for tomorrow shall be dealt with tomorrow.

Many other religious figures and teachings, contain and relate the very same principle. Which urges one LIVE and BE, in NOW, not in the past, or future, ...but NOW --- Matt 6:34 -- TAKE NO THOUGHT of it!

TIME is the UNPEACEFUL entity, which affects the things which ARE PHYSICALLY (carnally) in place, and -- can and does manifest its CORROSIVE/DESTRUCTIVE affect upon those things which occupy OBSERVABLE space, and which things also bear the VISIBLE and measureable "dimensions" of Height, width and length...

time varies with mass, acceleration, and gravity. For a person travelling at 99% the speed of light, Time slows for them by a factor of 7 If they were to travel to a star 7 light years away, at 99% speed of light, it would take them 1 year, but to an observer on Earth it would have seemed like 7 years.

PROVE ANY of this gradyll.

You have NO WITNESS whatosoever (including your own) that ANY of this is actually, FACT.

Just because someone/anyone SAYS something (a scientist or layman), is NOT PROOF.

You jave accepted that which has been placed before you, and then are seen here placing your FAITH upon the statements of these THEORIZING scientists who CLAIM this (theorizedl data) shuold be accepted as FACT without giving any PROOF whatsoever OF IT... and YOU are hereing parroting thses UNPROVEN theories to others, when YOU cannot even be SURE yourself, that ANY of it is really true!

Not coincidentally, it is these very same scientists that require YOU to:

PROVE you have a SOUL.
PROVE you have a SPIRIT.
PROVE there is a GOD.

And many of these scientists DENY the existence of these, on the basis that YOU cannot PROVE ANY of these... Please.

Shall you remain their puppet (and parrot), gradyll? Or is today the day (NOW) in which you shall begin to LEARN?

Time needs mass to operate, because time varies with mass, acceleration, and gravity.

so since the soul has no mass, the soul is outside of time (space time=space or volume/mass + time)

By default the soul HAS to be eternal.

Hell must be eternal as well.

What a lot of Scripturally UNSUPPORTED hearsay.

And so sorry to inform you, ..."Chuck Missler videos" do nothing to prove your UNRPROVEN contentions! (Btw... Chuck preaches just a few miles from where I live! -- I'm quite familiar with many of his UNPROVEN conjectures.)

Much like yourself, on many levels, though intelligent, and faithful, ...Chuck Missler is not worth listening to, ...ESPECIALLY, when he ventures outside the arena of FAITH and SPIRIT, into the PHYSCIAL world, which requires PHYSICAL proof, from those who expect PROOF... which is not satisfied by UNPROVEN CONJECTURES.

The TRUTH is that neither Chuck, nor YOU can PROVE ...ANY... of this!

Have a nice day...


PEACE...


...willieH

 

[createdtoworship]

That assumes God cannot make a universe with different laws of physics where the relationships of space and time are not the same. The problem we have with trying to figure out heaven and hell is we presuppose that the laws of those dimensions/universes/etc follow the same rules (which God set up BTW) as our universe does. This is what I was trying to equate to annihilists that insist God follow their presupposed logic when his logic is higher than ours.

well quantum mechanics plays a spiritual role, especially where it comes into play with cold dark matter. 1 part in 100,000 is solid and the rest is an electrical simulation, if you can align the atoms properly you can walk through wall like Jesus did in the upper room. Thats stretching physics quite a bit and outright contradictions of physics as well. Secondly, every dimension allows one to negate the physics of the previous dimension. So if you live in over 10 dimensions, the 3 dimensional (or four) physics does not apply anymore. But all of this becomes theoretical and non debatable. Thats why I like debating time and mass because those are physical things in our universe that we can prove.