Let's Talk About Hell (4)

[Sophrosyne]

well quantum mechanics plays a spiritual role, especially where it comes into play with cold dark matter. 1 part in 100,000 is solid and the rest is an electrical simulation, if you can align the atoms properly you can walk through wall like Jesus did in the upper room. Thats stretching physics quite a bit and outright contradictions of physics as well. Secondly, every dimension allows one to negate the physics of the previous dimension. So if you live in over 10 dimensions, the 3 dimensional (or four) physics does not apply anymore. But all of this becomes theoretical and non debatable. Thats why I like debating time and mass because those are physical things in our universe that we can prove.

Exactly... the properties of our universe only apply/affect those confined to it. I constantly see people demanding Heaven and Hell fall in line with the physics of our universe. Logically speaking it is a starting point to try and understand those realms but limits them to something that most likely is a crude representation (and inaccurate). Until we know the properties of Hell as for time and space insisting on torment (as applied in our 4 dimensions) and relating everything to our universe can be irresponsible. As the laws of our universe can affect our senses and reality, laws that may only exist in Heaven and/or Hell also affect that reality and if they are not identical enough trying to translate the set of laws to our experiences in our universe and its laws can end up in a false perception of reality.
For example if for some reason your ears allow you to see in Hell and your eyes allow you to hear then trying to translate blue into a sound bite has no equivalent unless experienced. Torment there may be an experience that doesn't easily translate here. We may consider torment as torture but in Hell torment may be a product of the environment there and no torturing whatsoever.

 

[Sophrosyne]

One thing that just came to mind... in our universe there are laws of thermodynamics. One of these laws equates energy as something that is never destroyed but converted and transferred forever (conserved). If we were to mirror this principle into God's realm then if the soul had any sort of energy to it in that realm that energy may not be destructable at all as it is possible in God's realm energy cannot be destroyed thus if those who are insisting that God's realm's laws are identical enough to ours (and there are no other dimensions either) have a problem in that they advocate the destruction of energy when in our realm that is impossible thus making for instant annihilation a paradox.

 

[NEW SONG]

Torment:

In the Greek, the words used here for "torment" and "tormented" are basanizo and basanismo which are both derived from the word basanos. Basanos is what is commonly known in English as the "touchstone." Its proper usage in olden times was to try the genuineness of gold. The pure gold rubbed on the stone would leave a peculiar mark, different to that of other metals or alloys. Therefore it acquired a symbolic significance: a test or criterion for determining the quality or the genuineness of a thing; to test for purity or truth. Therefore, you see, when we are "tormented" by the locusts, we are having our genuineness and quality tested — for if we are being tormented by the locusts it should clearly reveal to us that we are NOT WALKING IN THE TRUTH, NOR IN THE MIND OF CHRIST, NOR IN OUR TRUE IDENTITY AS SONS OF OUR HEAVENLY FATHER! That is the test, and the truth of what mind, word, and identity we are walking in is made manifest by the "sting" of the locusts! They cannot sting one who has the seal of God in his forehead!

 

[createdtoworship]

More blab that is nothing but HEARSAY and UNBIBLICAL speculation...

SURE of that? On what basis, can we be... "SURE of that", ...gradyll? Because YOU have said it? Please! You're gonna have to do MUCH better than that!

But for the record... that JESUS, ...(being the OFFSPRING and) Son of YHVH can certainly "do" anything... is NOT at all argued by me, ...

However, even JESUS does not "do or practice" NON-EXISTENT, and IRRELEVANT things... ...such as the EVER UNPROVEN... and NON-EXISTENT --- "inter-dimensional" navigation...

First it must be PROVEN that indeed there ARE "dimensions" aside from the ones that can be experienced within the LIFE given us...

Until then the point and suggestion of said "dimensions" which are supposedly, ...outside the parameters of height, width, length (possibly time), ARE NOTHING but... an UNPROVEN point and baseless conjecture which is a, ..."mooter"...

Well if Jesus isn't multidimensional, then He's not omnipresent. That's straightforward, and if He is not omnipresent then He is not God. That's pretty straightforward.

Hold on there hoss... not so fast... with these, your latest words... Being of the COMPLETELY UNPROVEN variety... ...As well,

I claim ...FOUL! And hereby BIBLICALLY CHALLENGE these words to be FALSE!

In the above quote, you base ONE UNPROVEN and NON EXISTENT entity as being "eternal" -- HELL, ...upon a fallacy concerning another NON-ETERNAL entity (the SOUL)

ETERNAL implies both --- WITHOUT ----> BEGINNING or END...

According to the BIBLE (not your conjecture), there are TWO FINITE limitations concerning the existence of the SOUL, and BOTH of these limitations certainly ...ARE... mentioned in the Bible:

Ez 18:20 -- notes the DEATH of the SOUL that SINS (end/or at the very least - INTERRUPTION of LIFE of the SOUL)... and therefore said "SOUL" is therefore, NOT "eternal"... CEASING in DEATH.

Gen 2:7 -- which notes that MAN ...BECOMES... a living "SOUL". Prior to "becoming" "LIVING", ...the SOUL is a NON-EXISTENT entity... and therefore NOT "eternal"... having to BECOME a SOUL... which LIVES.

As far as your claim that the SOUL "is" eternal...

Where in the Scriptures do THEY SAY that the SOUL "is eternal", gradyll? Outside of YOUR words, ...the Scriptures clearly claim a SOUL becomes living, then ceases in death -- Not one, but, ...TWO FINITE limitations which VOID an "ETERNAL" existence.

Until you can cite said Scripture (originating from the ETERNAL and DIVINE WORD of YHVH God), ...these words are nothing but more words of hearsay and unproven conjecture, originating from you... and from your finite mind... instead of ORIGINATING from the WORD of TRUTH.

I never said it was in the Bible that the soul is eternal, I said in the laws of physics the soul or software of the body is without time because it is without mass/volume and space basically. So space time cannot function. Time without space isn't time. Thats a fact, check wikipedia on space time.

Secondly, many translations don't say soul in ezekiel 18:20:
such as these 10 translations
NASB,
CEV,
GNT,
HCSB,
The Living Bible,
NET Bible,
NABWRNT,
NCV,
NLT,
TNIV,

Ezekiel 18:20 NASB
20 The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son’s iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.

Nasb is held to be the most accurate Bible around for many people.

Yeah right... if you can, ...PROVE this for those observing this convo... show us:

Where in the WORD, does GOD note the SOUL to be "software", and that it "has no mass"? ...C'mon gradyll... you know this is a lot of appealing to UNBIBLICAL fallacy... and is unworthy to be accepted.

Where areany of the laws of physics mentioned? Where is the law of gravity mentioned in scripture? No where, does that mean it's bogus?

Exactly, but what does that have to do with the SPIRITUAL? ...a CD-R "weighs" the same whether it is blank or filled to its capacity... But what has this to do with anything?

So sorry gradyll, ...your assertions and appeals do not PROVE anything concerning the SOUL... let's have some SCRIPTURAL proof there, ...Mr. Christian...

WARE in the WORD is "hardware" or "software" mentioned? If you would like a "Hint": NO-WARE!

So you believe the soul has mass is that what you are saying? Thats kind of ridiculous. But anyway, "information has no mass" is what that study was proving. Since the soul is just non physical information it too would have no mass, and thus be outside of time (space time). Secondly, do you not believe in hardware and software? I mean they are not in the Bible right? So you must not believe in them. You sound like one of those quaker's that don't believe in electricity because it's sinful.

It can be easily argued that TIME (as a "dimension" or anything else) does not at all exist, ...and that the past, present and future are ALL, ...nothiing but "NOW" which is become, in motion without REST or PEACE... for NOW is the ONLY "TIME" that is AVAILABLE within the LIVING EXPERIENCE...

if time did not exist gravity would not exist. Because many physicists believe gravity is a result of the pressures of space time curvatures on the earth (not actual gravity.) Without time you would not have space time, and not have space time to curve and not have the pressures resulting from space time curvatures. We would all be floating in space.

TIME is the UNPEACEFUL entity, which affects the things which ARE PHYSICALLY (carnally) in place, and -- can and does manifest its CORROSIVE/DESTRUCTIVE affect upon those things which occupy OBSERVABLE space, and which things also bear the VISIBLE and measureable "dimensions" of Height, width and length...

I agree

PROVE ANY of this gradyll.

You have NO WITNESS whatosoever (including your own) that ANY of this is actually, FACT.

Just because someone/anyone SAYS something (a scientist or layman), is NOT PROOF.

You jave accepted that which has been placed before you, and then are seen here placing your FAITH upon the statements of these THEORIZING scientists who CLAIM this (theorizedl data) shuold be accepted as FACT without giving any PROOF whatsoever OF IT... and YOU are hereing parroting thses UNPROVEN theories to others, when YOU cannot even be SURE yourself, that ANY of it is really true!

Not coincidentally, it is these very same scientists that require YOU to:

PROVE you have a SOUL.
PROVE you have a SPIRIT.
PROVE there is a GOD.

And many of these scientists DENY the existence of these, on the basis that YOU cannot PROVE ANY of these... Please.

Shall you remain their puppet (and parrot), gradyll? Or is today the day (NOW) in which you shall begin to LEARN?

you must not have been reading any of the posts, this is physics based not faith based:

"Length, mass, velocity, and time are relative to velocity of the observers" special relativity, Einstein, 1905

"if you raise an atomic clock one meter it will speed up by 1 part in 10 to the 16th seconds" CMissler

What a lot of Scripturally UNSUPPORTED hearsay.

And so sorry to inform you, ..."Chuck Missler videos" do nothing to prove your UNRPROVEN contentions! (Btw... Chuck preaches just a few miles from where I live! -- I'm quite familiar with many of his UNPROVEN conjectures.)

Much like yourself, on many levels, though intelligent, and faithful, ...Chuck Missler is not worth listening to, ...ESPECIALLY, when he ventures outside the arena of FAITH and SPIRIT, into the PHYSCIAL world, which requires PHYSICAL proof, from those who expect PROOF... which is not satisfied by UNPROVEN CONJECTURES.

The TRUTH is that neither Chuck, nor YOU can PROVE ...ANY... of this!

I already did prove the nature of space time.

Spacetime - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[createdtoworship]

Torment:

In the Greek, the words used here for "torment" and "tormented" are basanizo and basanismo which are both derived from the word basanos. Basanos is what is commonly known in English as the "touchstone." Its proper usage in olden times was to try the genuineness of gold. The pure gold rubbed on the stone would leave a peculiar mark, different to that of other metals or alloys. Therefore it acquired a symbolic significance: a test or criterion for determining the quality or the genuineness of a thing; to test for purity or truth. Therefore, you see, when we are "tormented" by the locusts, we are having our genuineness and quality tested — for if we are being tormented by the locusts it should clearly reveal to us that we are NOT WALKING IN THE TRUTH, NOR IN THE MIND OF CHRIST, NOR IN OUR TRUE IDENTITY AS SONS OF OUR HEAVENLY FATHER! That is the test, and the truth of what mind, word, and identity we are walking in is made manifest by the "sting" of the locusts! They cannot sting one who has the seal of God in his forehead!

your bugging me with this locust thing,

get it? your bugging me?

 

[NEW SONG]

your bugging me with this locust thing,

get it? your bugging me?

Well I bet this is the first time you got bugged with a spiritual bug

 

[createdtoworship]

Well I bet this is the first time you got bugged with a spiritual bug

oh just bug off, get it?

bug...... off?

 

[tackattack]

Despite the fact this conversation has gone out into one of the strangest tangents I've ever seen on a Christian thread, I'll jump in whole heartedly.

Gradyll,

I think your view is overly simplistic, and not able to be supported by scripture. For instance, what happens to the information on the floppy if you destroy the floppy disk?

Maybe if you could answer a few simple questions without talking about science like,
what do you feel happens the moment you die? What do you think will happen when Christ comes again, if you believe he will? Does eternal equate to indestuctible?

 

[he-man]

Torment:

In the Greek, the words used here for "torment" and "tormented" are basanizo and basanismo which are both derived from the word basanos. Basanos is what is commonly known in English as the "touchstone." Its proper usage in olden times was to try the genuineness of gold. The pure gold rubbed on the stone would leave a peculiar mark, different to that of other metals or alloys. Therefore it acquired a symbolic significance: a test or criterion for determining the quality or the genuineness of a thing; to test for purity or truth. Therefore, you see, when we are "tormented" by the locusts, we are having our genuineness and quality tested — for if we are being tormented by the locusts it should clearly reveal to us that we are NOT WALKING IN THE TRUTH, NOR IN THE MIND OF CHRIST, NOR IN OUR TRUE IDENTITY AS SONS OF OUR HEAVENLY FATHER! That is the test, and the truth of what mind, word, and identity we are walking in is made manifest by the "sting" of the locusts! They cannot sting one who has the seal of God in his forehead!

 

[LutheranMafia]

I never said it was in the Bible that the soul is eternal, I said in the laws of physics the soul or software of the body is without time because it is without mass/volume and space basically. So space time cannot function. Time without space isn't time. Thats a fact, check wikipedia on space time.

I have to disagree here. The soul of the damned is clearly not eternal, their souls are destroyed, so time clearly does play a role with the soul.

In addition, there is nothing to indicate that the soul is not effected by space.

 

[WillieH]

Well if Jesus isn't multidimensional, then He's not omnipresent. That's straightforward, and if He is not omnipresent then He is not God. That's pretty straightforward.

Your initial method is faulty, and so your conclusions derived from the use of that method can only follow suit.

In olden days, rats appeared in garbage shortly afterward, and many believed in that day, that the rats indeed emerged from the garbage, as inherent properties of the garbage. Your deducion above is done in the very same fashion.

FIRST, you suggested in your previous post that JESUS "navigates interdimenionally"... which "navigation"proposes Him to traverse from one to another. (apparently you do not know what OMNIPRESENCE is)

This is NOT "OMINPRESENCE"... An OMNIPRESENT being is already EVERYWHERE, not in need to "traverse" or "navigate" unto where said being, ...ALREADY ...IS.

That GOD is OMNIPRESENT in itself, means that IF there were other "dimensions" (which we have no PROOF there are), His OMNIPRESNCE by default places Him there without the need to traverse, one into the other. Your above speculative conclusion contains this inherent oversight.

JESUS has a GOD = YHVH (which He admitted was His GOD -- Mark 15:34) -- Eph 1:3 -- Eph 1:17 -- and is therefore NOT "His own" GOD... and He WAS, IS and ALWAYS SHALL BE, in ...SUBJECTION (below), unto YHVH -- 1 Cor 15:28

The Scriptures clearly note IN HARMONY with this, ...clearly noting that there is NO other GOD but YHVH -- Isaiah 43:10 -- who KNOWS all things -- 1 John 3:20 -- and STATES in His WORD, that there is no other God but HIMSELF, and this is stated according to HIS KNOWLEDGE -- Isaiah 44:8 -- ("I KNOW not ANY") which "knowledge" encompasses ALL THINGS.


That you have a hard time reading what is CLEARLY stated in His WORD, is your own on-going problem wihich is inhibited by pride. ...a vessel which is full of itself (fancying yourself as a teacher), instead of containing the needed space to LEARN as a STUDENT.

Now, ...THAT is what is pretty straigtforward!

I never said it was in the Bible that the soul is eternal, I said in the laws of physics the soul or software of the body is without time because it is without mass/volume and space basically. So space time cannot function. Time without space isn't time. Thats a fact, check wikipedia on space time.

FIRST --- "software" is an irrelevant term, as it is absent from the Scriptures, and has nothing to do with the discussion of premises within it.


SECOND --- The assertions of the speed of LIGHT and many other (modern) "laws of physics" are as THEORETICAL and UNPROVEN as are the UNSEEN elements of the ATOM, and other such speculative information which science proposes to YOU as FACT, without any PROOF whatsoever of said contentions... yet, lo & behold, ...are willingly and foolishly SWALLOWED by you as FACT.

Also... Until a WITNESS actually travels to speeds approaching the speed of light, providing EVIDENCE to accompany that WITNESS, ...it is TOTALLY UNKNOWN as to the conditions that actually exist, and take place in that scenario.

That YOU readily accept these THEORIES as fact, does not make them so.

Just as you so easily IGNORE the FACTUAL and SPIRITUAL TRUTHS that are CLEARLY stated in the WORD (even though they have been placed RIGHT BEFORE YOU), ...do you IGNORE that the THEORETICAL positions that SCIENCE maintain as FACT, are in no sense of FACT, proven to be so...

Chasing myths which SCIENCE proposes to you, adopting them at the drop of a hat or even suggestion, ...instead of being about exercising and submitting to PLAINLY stated premises of GOD as they appear in the WORD, and thereby employing FAITH in them.

Time to examine what you really believe gradyll... the WORD of God, or the blaspheming, tainted and decieving words OF MEN. You shall have NO EXCUSE for your IGNORANCE when you are come before YHVH.

Secondly, many translations don't say soul in ezekiel 18:20:
such as these 10 translations
NASB,
CEV,
GNT,
HCSB,
The Living Bible,
NET Bible,
NABWRNT,
NCV,
NLT,
TNIV,

Please... ...just FYI, the Living bible is NOT a translation of the Bible... it is a PARAPHRASING of it.

You only establish my points...

The TRANSLATIONS are in clear evidential CONTENTION with each other... Mainly because RELIGIOUS BIASES bind them doctrinally (as are you bound)... and keep those men and women which have translated the Scriptures, from reaching TRUTH.

You have failed to recognize that not only the PRIESTHOOD was reprimanded by JESUS, but the SCRIBES (those who notated the Scriptures) were also named as HYPOCRITES, as well -- Matt 23:13-33

It is honorable to translate a work. It is dishonorable to embellish or misrepresent terminologies to suit ones own beliefs. I will show you later in this answer this practice in the translation (NASB), in which YOU place your trust.

I will continue addressing you in another post.


PEACE...

...willieH

 

[WillieH]

CONTINUING...

Ezekiel 18:20 NASB
20 The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son’s iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.

Nasb is held to be the most accurate Bible around for many people.

No offense me bratha, ...but graydyll, you are much like a standup comic at times...


FIRST --- You are completely (by your own ADMISSION) dependent upon the OPINIONS and/or PERSUASIONS of "MANY" people. Using THEM to substanciate what you trust, and "believe"... CUTTING and PASTING often those opinions (in which few might find interest), in the stead of your own personal research... which witnesses to your own PERSONAL relationship and which would validate YOUR RESEARCH as time spent seeking your GOD.

Thereby any MISLEADING contained in the potential LIE which is held by that "many", shall take YOU down the pathway of the MANY in the ditch which is their sorrowful destination -- Matt 7:22-23 -- Matt 24:5 -- and which you shall come to SORELY regret one day.

SECOND --- NASB ..."Accurate"? We shall see...

The word translated "SOUL" -- NAPHESH -- #H5315 -- in -- Ez 18:20 -- is the VERY SAME WORD used in -- Gen 2:7 -- which notes MAN became a LIVING SOUL -- and is universally used in the OT, and translated SOUL, even in the NASB. So your belief reads this as "Man became a living PERSON"... eh?


Though I shall not bother much with the NASB, ...there is no doubt that in many places it translates NAPHESH to be various things... INCONSISTENTLY showing its own contradictory and variable position concerning the meaning of NAPHESH... and likely does this (inconsistency) with other terms within its pages, as well...

You above have quoted:

In -- Ez 18:20 -- the NASB translates NAPHESH to be "person"

And elsewhere in the NASB:

In -- Gen 2:7 -- the NASB translates NAPHESH to be "being"...

In -- Psalm 49:15 -- the NASB translates NAPHESH to be "soul"

Which is it gradyll? PERSON, BEING or SOUL? The NASB, can't seem to make up its own mind which it is... ...maybe you cannot either, eh?

The "NASB" is as encompassed in ERROR as is the KJV, as are all other translations which are the works of SINFUL men and women, which can each be shown to EXAGGERATE, EMBELLISH, DETER, and/or FOOL the reader of them, ...translating in many cases, words which are beneficial to the RELIGIOUS beliefs which (whether revealed or veiled) were held by these "translators"...

Where areany of the laws of physics mentioned? Where is the law of gravity mentioned in scripture? No where, does that mean it's bogus?

Interesting you chose to use GRAVITY as an example to mention.

Science knows what GRAVITY does... but WHY and HOW does it does what it does, escapes them! ...shall you explain it, for us ...gradyll?

That science is often baffled by the Creation of YHVH is reason enough to stand back from it, scrutinizing it from afar. Changing its stance one day from the next... Telling us drinking coffee endangers our health, then next week that NEW benefits have been discovered in coffee. Please!

Many DRUGS produced in SCIENTIFIC labs, are KILLING people in this day... yet, trust in them is still enacted by the MANY.

Just turn on the TV... and within moments you shall see announcements of LAWSUITS against "SCIENCE"... which in the guise of HEALING, often THREATEN the precious LIVES given by GOD.

"57 Chevy's" aren't mentioned in the Bible, nor does the term "laws of physics"... which both happen to be impertinent to discussing what IS mentioned in it, and are nothing but STRAWMAN deflections which YOU attempt to employ, instead of ADDRESSING in discussion --- what IS in the Scriptures, you bring up such LAWS and mythological "dimensions" in the attempt to substanciate YOUR CHOICE to IGNORE what IS written in the WORD.

No offense bro... It is you which brings up "software & hardware" which are "NO-WARE" to be found in the Bible, ...not I.

So you believe the soul has mass is that what you are saying?

Hmmm... let me see... Did I ...SAY... this? UM... no, I did not! And if I did not SAY this... then it doesn't take a computer analyst to discover that I am not ..."SAYING"... this.

I do not KNOW one way or the other, as the SOUL is an entity created by GOD, and only HE knows the parameters in which the SOUL is encompassed.

I do not SPECULATE (as do you), about what I do not KNOW.

Thats kind of ridiculous.

No... what is "ridiculous" --- is YOU noting via SPECULATION, that which you DO NOT KNOW... now, ...THAT, ...is what is truly RIDICULOUS.

"information has no mass" is what that study was proving.

...You speak religiously... bound in it, head to toe.

"INFORMATION" is what YOU ARE, bro! Explain what you ARE without INFORMATION.

The design of the Human being (information) is contained in the fertilized human EGG (which HAS MASS)... and YOUR anatomy which HAS "MASS" is the product emergent of that INFORMATION.

The human cell contains DNA, and HAS MASS... DNA is the foundational INFORMATION that notes what indeed we are, concerning SPECIES, ANATOMY, etc... And YOU cannot PROVE that the INFORMATION within the LIFEFORM, HAS NO MASS...

How about the BRAIN? You shall contend that it is just a piece of meat? Or that its INFORMATION is not PART and PARTY to its inherent makeup?

You foolishly speculate, as do most advocates of Science... that which you DO NOT KNOW to be FACT.

To begin with, you deter the convo by claiming that the word SOUL means "PERSON", using what YOU CLAIM to be the most PRECISE "translation" of the WORD - the "NASB" (which I have shown to be flawed and variable) ...then you resort to other distractions which SPECUALATE upon that which you KNOW NOTHING... such as the PARAMETERS of the SOUL. having NO MASS (or is it person or being?)

If we take the NASB's rendition of NAPHESH, which is "PERSON"... does YOUR "PERSON" have MASS, gradyll? Or are you a "PERSON" which is MASS-LESS? ...Is your PERSON violated when another strikes you?

To say the SOUL has no MASS, is to reduce GOD, ...for GOD is SPIRIT, ...And that MAN is MADE in His image... which is a reflection of ALL that GOD IS... in DETAIL...

We see that ...Man has eyes = GOD has eyes, ...MAN has back parts, GOD has back parts... MAN has a soul = GOD has a soul...

Within the IMAGE of GOD is a SOUL... has to also mean that GOD has a SOUL as well (whatever that term really means in DIVINE depth)... the SOUL is more than either you or I can possibly KNOW or DEFINE in this realm... yet YOU demote it to meaninglessness.


If I take your translation and use it against you... then your precious NASB, notes that NAPHESH means PERSON... Thereby you are bound by the term PERSON, which btw... HAS MASS!

What PERSON do you know, has NO MASS, gradyll... ... the "invisible man"?

Or if we take the OTHER translation of the Hebrew word NAPHESH by the NASB... which is "BEING" -- are we to consider YOU a MASS-LESS "BEING", gradyll? ...get real... LEARN if you are able. (likely not)


Your precious, "NASB" is more than deficient and ambiguously misleading... hardly "accurate" nor CONSISTENT.

This is all the response you deserve from me.... for your contentions are far too easy to refute...

TRIPPING over themselves again and again, displaying themselves to be in WILLING and PURPOSED IGNORANCE of the CLEARLY WRITTEN ...WORD of YHVH...

And in worship of the science of man ...in its stead.


have a nice day...



PEACE...


...willieH

 

[createdtoworship]

I have to disagree here. The soul of the damned is clearly not eternal, their souls are destroyed, so time clearly does play a role with the soul.

the NASB translates soul as "person"

the person that sins shall die, not the soul that sins shall die.

I am unaware of any other verses where it states the soul dies.

In addition, there is nothing to indicate that the soul is not effected by space.

when a person dies, they weigh exactly the same, that proves the soul has no mass

 

[createdtoworship]

Despite the fact this conversation has gone out into one of the strangest tangents I've ever seen on a Christian thread, I'll jump in whole heartedly.

Gradyll,

I think your view is overly simplistic, and not able to be supported by scripture. For instance, what happens to the information on the floppy if you destroy the floppy disk?

Maybe if you could answer a few simple questions without talking about science like,
what do you feel happens the moment you die? What do you think will happen when Christ comes again, if you believe he will?

Information has no mass, and is there fore out of time space continuum all together, perhaps any information created is recorded in God's data bases prior to destruction of the floppy. The moment you die nothing happens to the soul, just the body dies. The soul remains living and alert. At the resurrection you reunite with your physical body (resurrected), and proceed to judgement (if you are wicked), and Go to heaven if you are not wicked.

Does eternal equate to indestuctible?

yes that is what eternal means.

 

[createdtoworship]

Your initial method is faulty, and so your conclusions derived from the use of that method can only follow suit.

FIRST, you suggested in your previous post that JESUS "navigates interdimenionally"... which "navigation"proposes Him to traverse from one to another. (apparently you do not know what OMNIPRESENCE is)

Interdimentional travel is one theory that makes miracles possible, a being in a higher dimension can alter the laws of physics in a previous dimension. When Jesus appeared in the upper room, he either aligned his atoms to fit perfectly through a solid wall, or he did a miracle. Both are miracles really. But if he came at it from another dimension then He could do it rationally.

Flatland: The Movie - Official Trailer - YouTube

This is NOT "OMINPRESENCE"... An OMNIPRESENT being is already EVERYWHERE, not in need to "traverse" or "navigate" unto where said being, ...ALREADY ...IS.

That GOD is OMNIPRESENT in itself, means that IF there were other "dimensions" (which we have no PROOF there are), His OMNIPRESNCE by default places Him there without the need to traverse, one into the other. Your above speculative conclusion contains this inherent oversight.

your right about traversing , yet God may emphasize his presence in one dimension over others, perhaps in the incarnation of Christ.

proof of other dimensions
Physicists Find Way To 'See' Extra Dimensions

JESUS has a GOD = YHVH (which He admitted was His GOD -- Mark 15:34) -- Eph 1:3 -- Eph 1:17 -- and is therefore NOT "His own" GOD... and He WAS, IS and ALWAYS SHALL BE, in ...SUBJECTION (below), unto YHVH -- 1 Cor 15:28

The Scriptures clearly note IN HARMONY with this, ...clearly noting that there is NO other GOD but YHVH -- Isaiah 43:10 -- who KNOWS all things -- 1 John 3:20 -- and STATES in His WORD, that there is no other God but HIMSELF, and this is stated according to HIS KNOWLEDGE -- Isaiah 44:8 -- ("I KNOW not ANY") which "knowledge" encompasses ALL THINGS.

proof Jesus is God
Jesus is God | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry

FIRST --- "software" is an irrelevant term, as it is absent from the Scriptures, and has nothing to do with the discussion of premises within it.

I never said software was in the Bible. Nor are the laws of physics, and gravity in the scriptures.

SECOND --- The assertions of the speed of LIGHT and many other (modern) "laws of physics" are as THEORETICAL and UNPROVEN as are the UNSEEN elements of the ATOM, and other such speculative information which science proposes to YOU as FACT, without any PROOF whatsoever of said contentions... yet, lo & behold, ...are willingly and foolishly SWALLOWED by you as FACT.

Also... Until a WITNESS actually travels to speeds approaching the speed of light, providing EVIDENCE to accompany that WITNESS, ...it is TOTALLY UNKNOWN as to the conditions that actually exist, and take place in that scenario.

That YOU readily accept these THEORIES as fact, does not make them so.

wow, you are the first one I have met that doesn't believe in the speed of light. The speed of light is set at an international standard of 186,282 miles per second.
Speed of light - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

the atom also can be observed
Cesium and Iodine atoms using gamma radiation images

Please... ...just FYI, the Living bible is NOT a translation of the Bible... it is a PARAPHRASING of it.

You only establish my points...

The TRANSLATIONS are in clear evidential CONTENTION with each other... Mainly because RELIGIOUS BIASES bind them doctrinally (as are you bound)... and keep those men and women which have translated the Scriptures, from reaching TRUTH.

the NASB is a word for word translation and is the most accurate translation out there.

You have failed to recognize that not only the PRIESTHOOD was reprimanded by JESUS, but the SCRIBES (those who notated the Scriptures) were also named as HYPOCRITES, as well -- Matt 23:13-33

It is honorable to translate a work. It is dishonorable to embellish or misrepresent terminologies to suit ones own beliefs. I will show you later in this answer this practice in the translation (NASB), in which YOU place your trust.

I will continue addressing you in another post.

you need evidence for your verse translations, how do you know nephesh means soul or life, it is translated as life hundreds of times in the Bible.

 

[createdtoworship]

CONTINUING...

No offense me bratha, ...but graydyll, you are much like a standup comic at times...


FIRST --- You are completely (by your own ADMISSION) dependent upon the OPINIONS and/or PERSUASIONS of "MANY" people. Using THEM to substanciate what you trust, and "believe"... CUTTING and PASTING often those opinions (in which few might find interest), in the stead of your own personal research...

Proverbs 11:14b
"in the multitude of counselors there is safety."

Thereby any MISLEADING contained in the potential LIE which is held by that "many", shall take YOU down the pathway of the MANY in the ditch which is their sorrowful destination -- Matt 7:22-23 -- Matt 24:5 -- and which you shall come to SORELY regret one day.

using many sources usually substantiates claims.

SECOND --- NASB ..."Accurate"? We shall see...

The word translated "SOUL" -- NAPHESH -- #H5315 -- in -- Ez 18:20 -- is the VERY SAME WORD used in -- Gen 2:7 -- which notes MAN became a LIVING SOUL -- and is universally used in the OT, and translated SOUL, even in the NASB. So your belief reads this as "Man became a living PERSON"... eh?

you need to look up the definition of nephesh, it can mean many, many things.

secondly, the NASB is found to be one of the most word for word translations out there

Though I shall not bother much with the NASB, ...there is no doubt that in many places it translates NAPHESH to be various things... INCONSISTENTLY showing its own contradictory and variable position concerning the meaning of NAPHESH... and likely does this (inconsistency) with other terms within its pages, as well...

You above have quoted:

In -- Ez 18:20 -- the NASB translates NAPHESH to be "person"

And elsewhere in the NASB:

In -- Gen 2:7 -- the NASB translates NAPHESH to be "being"...

In -- Psalm 49:15 -- the NASB translates NAPHESH to be "soul"

Which is it gradyll? PERSON, BEING or SOUL? The NASB, can't seem to make up its own mind which it is... ...maybe you cannot either, eh?

The "NASB" is as encompassed in ERROR as is the KJV, as are all other translations which are the works of SINFUL men and women, which can each be shown to EXAGGERATE, EMBELLISH, DETER, and/or FOOL the reader of them, ...translating in many cases, words which are beneficial to the RELIGIOUS beliefs which (whether revealed or veiled) were held by these "translators"...

again I recommend looking up the definition of nephesh online somewhere you would be amazed at what it can mean.


Interesting you chose to use GRAVITY as an example to mention.

Science knows what GRAVITY does... but WHY and HOW does it does what it does, escapes them! ...shall you explain it, for us ...gradyll?

That science is often baffled by the Creation of YHVH is reason enough to stand back from it, scrutinizing it from afar. Changing its stance one day from the next... Telling us drinking coffee endangers our health, then next week that NEW benefits have been discovered in coffee. Please!

Many DRUGS produced in SCIENTIFIC labs, are KILLING people in this day... yet, trust in them is still enacted by the MANY.

Just turn on the TV... and within moments you shall see announcements of LAWSUITS against "SCIENCE"... which in the guise of HEALING, often THREATEN the precious LIVES given by GOD.

"57 Chevy's" aren't mentioned in the Bible, nor does the term "laws of physics"... which both happen to be impertinent to discussing what IS mentioned in it, and are nothing but STRAWMAN deflections which YOU attempt to employ, instead of ADDRESSING in discussion --- what IS in the Scriptures, you bring up such LAWS and mythological "dimensions" in the attempt to substanciate YOUR CHOICE to IGNORE what IS written in the WORD.

No offense bro... It is you which brings up "software & hardware" which are "NO-WARE" to be found in the Bible, ...not I.

I never said software or hardware was in the Bible.

Hmmm... let me see... Did I ...SAY... this? UM... no, I did not! And if I did not SAY this... then it doesn't take a computer analyst to discover that I am not ..."SAYING"... this.

I do not KNOW one way or the other, as the SOUL is an entity created by GOD, and only HE knows the parameters in which the SOUL is encompassed.

I do not SPECULATE (as do you), about what I do not KNOW.

we know the soul has no mass as a person weighs exactly the same thing before and after death.



No... what is "ridiculous" --- is YOU noting via SPECULATION, that which you DO NOT KNOW... now, ...THAT, ...is what is truly RIDICULOUS.

"INFORMATION" is what YOU ARE, bro! Explain what you ARE without INFORMATION.

The design of the Human being (information) is contained in the fertilized human EGG (which HAS MASS)... and YOUR anatomy which HAS "MASS" is the product emergent of that INFORMATION.

The human cell contains DNA, and HAS MASS... DNA is the foundational INFORMATION that notes what indeed we are, concerning SPECIES, ANATOMY, etc... And YOU cannot PROVE that the INFORMATION within the LIFEFORM, HAS NO MASS...

How about the BRAIN? You shall contend that it is just a piece of meat? Or that its INFORMATION is not PART and PARTY to its inherent makeup?

You foolishly speculate, as do most advocates of Science... that which you DO NOT KNOW to be FACT.

DNA contains information but it is not information, it's nucleic acids.

To begin with, you deter the convo by claiming that the word SOUL means "PERSON", using what YOU CLAIM to be the most PRECISE "translation" of the WORD - the "NASB" (which I have shown to be flawed and variable) ...then you resort to other distractions which SPECUALATE upon that which you KNOW NOTHING... such as the PARAMETERS of the SOUL. having NO MASS (or is it person or being?)

it can be a person or being, both are definitions of Nephesh.

If we take the NASB's rendition of NAPHESH, which is "PERSON"... does YOUR "PERSON" have MASS, gradyll? Or are you a "PERSON" which is MASS-LESS? ...Is your PERSON violated when another strikes you?

the real person is software, not hardware. Massless and eternal.

To say the SOUL has no MASS, is to reduce GOD, ...for GOD is SPIRIT, ...And that MAN is MADE in His image... which is a reflection of ALL that GOD IS... in DETAIL...

We see that ...Man has eyes = GOD has eyes, ...MAN has back parts, GOD has back parts... MAN has a soul = GOD has a soul...

no where does it say God has a soul in the Bible

Within the IMAGE of GOD is a SOUL... has to also mean that GOD has a SOUL as well (whatever that term really means in DIVINE depth)... the SOUL is more than either you or I can possibly KNOW or DEFINE in this realm... yet YOU demote it to meaninglessness.

God is not a soul,

John 4:24
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

If I take your translation and use it against you... then your precious NASB, notes that NAPHESH means PERSON... Thereby you are bound by the term PERSON, which btw... HAS MASS!

only the body has mass, the soul has no mass. When a person dies and the soul leaves the body weighs the same as when the soul was there. There fore the soul has no mass. Like I have said numerous times in the last few posts.

What PERSON do you know, has NO MASS, gradyll... ... the "invisible man"?

Or if we take the OTHER translation of the Hebrew word NAPHESH by the NASB... which is "BEING" -- are we to consider YOU a MASS-LESS "BEING", gradyll? ...get real... LEARN if you are able. (likely not)


Your precious, "NASB" is more than deficient and ambiguously misleading... hardly "accurate" nor CONSISTENT.

This is all the response you deserve from me.... for your contentions are far too easy to refute...

TRIPPING over themselves again and again, displaying themselves to be in WILLING and PURPOSED IGNORANCE of the CLEARLY WRITTEN ...WORD of YHVH...

And in worship of the science of man ...in its stead.

you need evidence for your claims

 

[Truth_Warrior]

In the Old Testament, the Hebrew word "sheol "means “the state, or place, of the dead,” and is usually translated as “grave” (see Ps. 6:5, 16:10, 49:15, 89:48, et al).

Because there is not literally any such place, it could also be translated as “gravedom.” The Hebrews recognized that man is an integrated being who is either alive or dead (to me, this is obvious).

They understood that man does not have a soul, but rather that, as per Genesis 2:7, man is a living “soul” (nephesh), that is, a living person. When he dies, he is then a dead soul (e.g., Lev. 19:28, 21:1; Num. 5:2, 6:6, 11), that is, a dead person.

In contrast to the teaching of the Old Testament, most Greeks believed that man has “an immortal soul,” which they saw as the non-corporeal essence of his being that was trapped in the temporal, fleshly prison of his body until the wonderful moment when his body “died” and his “soul” could freely wing its way to Mt. Olympus, the land of Shades, or somewhere else.

Because of this belief, the Greeks had no word that corresponded with the idea expressed by the Hebrew word sheol.

The closest thing they could find was hades, and that is what those who produced the Septuagint (a translation of the Old Testament from Hebrew to Greek) chose as the counterpart to sheol.

As they do with sheol in the Old Testament, some English versions of the Bible erroneously translate the Greek word hades as “hell” in the New Testament [For a thorough examination of the meaning of sheol and hades, see the word “hell” in E.W. Bullinger’s A Critical Lexicon and Concordance to the English and Greek New Testament (Zondervan Pub. Co., Grand Rapids MI)].


The impact of translating sheol as hades cannot be overstated. In sheol, everyone is dead, but in the Greek language and culture, everyone in Hades is alive.

Thus, by the stroke of the pen of the Septuagint’s translators, all the dead (in sheol) were granted life after death in hades. The Greek-speaking Hebrews, reading their Greek Bible, would naturally come to believe that “the dead are alive” (it was, after all, in their Bible).

The idea that “hell” is a place of eternal torment came about because the word hades carried with it all the connotation of Greek mythology, in which Hades was the god of the underworld, a place where the souls of dead people went to be tormented.

As Bullinger writes in Appendix 131 of The Companion Bible:

“The Old Testament is the fountainhead of the Hebrew language. It has no literature behind it. But the case is entirely different with the Greek language. The Hebrew sheol is divine in its origin and usage. The Greek hades is human in its origin and comes down to us laden with centuries of development, in which it has acquired new senses, meanings, and usages.”

Scripture most certainly does speak of a place of fire where wicked people will be “punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord” (2 Thess. 1:9).

This is gehenna, a Greek word that the Gospel writers used in reference to what is elsewhere called “the lake of fire.” It is significant that not only wicked people will be destroyed there, but also “death and the grave” will be forever exterminated (see Rev. 20:12-15).


I don't really care how much a gigabyte weighs.
I don't care how relative time is to God.
I don't care how much mass is involved with a soul.
I don't care about whether Interdimentional travel exists.
I don't care about what is in or out of time space continuum.
I don't care if you think God keeps all the data stored on a floppy disk.
I don't care if you think Jesus is or isn't multidimensional.
I don't care if you think The soul is software not hardware.
I don't care if you think quantum mechanics plays a spiritual role.
I don't care if you live in over 10 dimensions.
I don't care whether you think Jesus didn't really dieand was travelling in an alternate universe.

Here is why........................

Rom_8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

1Co_2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Science will never be able to make sense of how and why God created man the way he did because most scientists probably don't believe in God and if they do believe in God they realize that Gods ways are far above our understanding.

Heck most scientists think the whole beauty of Gods creation was just by shear chance.

Psa_102:25 Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of thy hands.

Rom_11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

 

[he-man]

In the Old Testament, the Hebrew word "sheol "means “the state, or place, of the dead,” and is usually translated as “grave” (see Ps. 6:5, 16:10, 49:15, 89:48, et al).

Because there is not literally any such place, it could also be translated as “gravedom.” The Hebrews recognized that man is an integrated being who is either alive or dead (to me, this is obvious).

Scripture most certainly does speak of a place of fire where wicked people will be “punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord” (2 Thess. 1:9).

This is gehenna, a Greek word that the Gospel writers used in reference to what is elsewhere called “the lake of fire.” It is significant that not only wicked people will be destroyed there, but also “death and the grave” will be forever exterminated (see Rev. 20:12-15).

God does NOT punish, He will chastize or if you do not repent you will reap what you sow:

7 and to you that are troubled repose with us, at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven, with [the] angels of his power,
8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who know not God, and those who do not obey the glad tidings of our Lord Jesus Christ;
9 who shall pay the penalty [of] everlasting destruction from [the] presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his might,
10 when he shall have come to be glorified in his saints, and wondered at in all that have believed, (for our testimony to you has been believed,) in that day. 2 Thess 1:7-10 (Darby)

Isaiah 66:15-16
15 For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire. 16 For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many.

Jude 5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.

 

[createdtoworship]

They understood that man does not have a soul, but rather that, as per Genesis 2:7, man is a living “soul” (nephesh), that is, a living person. When he dies, he is then a dead soul (e.g., Lev. 19:28, 21:1; Num. 5:2, 6:6, 11), that is, a dead person.

Nephesh in strongs:
translates as “soul” 475 times, “life” 117 times, “person” 29 times, “mind” 15 times, “heart” 15 times, “creature” nine times, “body” eight times, “himself” eight times, “yourselves” six times, “dead” five times, “will” four times, “desire” four times, “man” three times, “themselves” three times, “any” three times, “appetite” twice, and translated miscellaneously 47 times.

Strong, James: The Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible : Showing Every Word of the Text of the Common English Version of the Canonical Books, and Every Occurrence of Each Word in Regular Order. electronic ed. Ontario : Woodside Bible Fellowship., 1996, S. H5315



you are saying that from all of the hundreds of occasions of nephesh in the Bible that the Jews are going to take 5 verses where nephesh is translated as "dead" and make it all mean ALL mean it?

Secondly, there are many stating that Jewish beliefs in the soul are different than you say:

The first-century Jewish historian Flavius Josephus stated that the Pharisees believed the souls of evil men are punished after death.
According to Josephus, the Essenes believed that the soul is both immortal and preexistent. from: Jewish afterlife beliefs

wikipedia states that jewish beliefs as follows:

"Though Jewish theology does not agree on the nature of an afterlife, the soul is said to "return to God" after death."http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soul

not die

I don't really care how much a gigabyte weighs.
I don't care how relative time is to God.
I don't care how much mass is involved with a soul.
I don't care about whether Interdimentional travel exists.
I don't care about what is in or out of time space continuum.
I don't care if you think God keeps all the data stored on a floppy disk.
I don't care if you think Jesus is or isn't multidimensional.
I don't care if you think The soul is software not hardware.
I don't care if you think quantum mechanics plays a spiritual role.
I don't care if you live in over 10 dimensions.
I don't care whether you think Jesus didn't really dieand was travelling in an alternate universe.

Here is why........................

Rom_8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

so do you reject the current speed of light calculations and disbelieve in the atom too?

(like willie who complains about the physics and metaphysics discussions)

 

[Truth_Warrior]

Nephesh in strongs:
translates as “soul” 475 times, “life” 117 times, “person” 29 times, “mind” 15 times, “heart” 15 times, “creature” nine times, “body” eight times, “himself” eight times, “yourselves” six times, “dead” five times, “will” four times, “desire” four times, “man” three times, “themselves” three times, “any” three times, “appetite” twice, and translated miscellaneously 47 times.

Strong, James: The Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible : Showing Every Word of the Text of the Common English Version of the Canonical Books, and Every Occurrence of Each Word in Regular Order. electronic ed. Ontario : Woodside Bible Fellowship., 1996, S. H5315



you are saying that from all of the hundreds of occasions of nephesh in the Bible that the Jews are going to take 5 verses where nephesh is translated as "dead" and make it all mean ALL mean it?

Secondly, there are many stating that Jewish beliefs in the soul are different than you say:

The first-century Jewish historian Flavius Josephus stated that the Pharisees believed the souls of evil men are punished after death.
According to Josephus, the Essenes believed that the soul is both immortal and preexistent. from: Jewish afterlife beliefs

wikipedia states that jewish beliefs as follows:

"Though Jewish theology does not agree on the nature of an afterlife, the soul is said to "return to God" after death."http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soul

not die



so do you reject the current speed of light calculations and disbelieve in the atom too?

(like willie who complains about the physics and metaphysics discussions)

Wikipedia??????????????????????????????

Really??????????????????????

Sticking with Gods Word on dead souls.

The Bible teaches that when a person dies he is dead in every way. His body is dead, and his soul and spirit die also. He is not alive in any form, in heaven or elsewhere.

The human body cannot live without a soul, and the soul and spirit cannot live apart from a body.

A “person” is an integrated whole. God has designed us so that our parts work in a totally integrated way, and not by themselves. This is one reason why the majority of the uses of “soul” in the Bible do not mean “soul” in the sense of the life force of the body, but rather the entire person.

Thus, when Acts 2:43 (KJV) says that “…fear came upon every soul…,” it means fear came upon every person. Once a person dies, he remains dead until he is raised from the dead by the Lord.


You can argue your point til you are blue in the face or til you pop into one of those other 9 dimensions but it will not make a dead soul alive.

Scripture is very clear that when a person dies and goes to Sheol his activity ceases:

Ecclesiastes 9:10 (ESV)
Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might, for there is no work or thought or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol, to which you are going.


There is no knowledge or thinking in Sheol, so there certainly is no rejoicing. This verse is not speaking only of a person’s body, as if the body went to Sheol but the soul was either in heaven with God or suffering in Hell. It is the “person,” including his soul, who goes to Sheol when he dies.

Psalm 89:48 (ESV)
What man can live and never see death? Who can deliver his soul from the power of Sheol?



Many of us have so much trouble in life that sometimes we just wish it were over, that we could rest in the sleep of death and be awakened by Jesus at the resurrection. Job was no different. He had so much trouble that he thought about resting in death until the resurrection.

Job 14:10-14
(10) But man dies and is laid low; he breathes his last and is no more.
(11) As water disappears from the sea or a riverbed becomes parched and dry,
(12) so man lies down and does not rise; till the heavens are no more, men will not awake or be roused from their sleep.
(13) If only you would hide me in the grave [Sheol] and conceal me till your anger has passed! If only you would set me a time and then remember me!
(14) If a man dies, will he live again? All the days of my hard service I will wait for my renewal to come.

There is tremendous truth in the above verses. When people die, they are asleep in death, not alive with God.

There is no life in Sheol; people sleep in death and await the resurrection, and that is what Job wanted—to rest from his misery.

We must pay attention to the fact that if Job thought his soul or spirit would live in a blessed place after he died, he would not have said what he did.


One must also realize that great confusion about the state of the dead was introduced into Old Testament theology and Jewish thinking when the Septuagint, the Greek Old Testament, was translated for Greek-speaking Jews, because the Hebrew word “Sheol” was translated into the Greek word “Hades.”

In Sheol everyone was dead, but in Hades everyone was alive. Thus,as I said before by the stroke of a translator’s pen, the dead were made alive.

We do not know why the translators used Hades in the Septuagint. Perhaps after some 75 years of Greek dominance they had been so influenced by Greek thought that they believed the dead were alive, and thought they were only clarifying the situation for the Greek-speaking Jews.

Perhaps they felt “Hades” was the best word they could choose, because the Greek language did not have a word equivalent to “Sheol.”

We do not know the reason, but we know the result:

The Bible of every Greek-speaking Jew suddenly read that after a person died his soul stayed alive and went to the Underworld.

No wonder that by the time of Christ there was confusion about the state of the dead. No wonder Jesus spent the opening part of his first public sermon, the Sermon on the Mount, speaking about the future hope of the people of God.


What the Jews believed at the time of Christ was very important, because as the first-century Church developed, the Christians were converts from two main groups, Jews and Greeks.

The Greeks believed in an immortal soul, and that everyone was alive after they died. Many of the Jews, especially those who read the Septuagint, believed the same thing. Therefore it is not hard to see how the modern orthodox belief of an immortal soul living on after the body dies came into Christianity.

It seems to me that your point about what The first-century Jewish historian Flavius Josephus believed helps prove my point because before the Greek influence in theology when you die you were dead.