Let's Talk About Hell (4)

[Timothew]

Based on interpreting the verse into meaninglessness? Only by interpretating the Bible into nothing, completely void of meaning, can you support your stance. Over and over again this is the case with you.

According to your opinion. Whatever. Believe whatever you want, I don't care. You can believe that God is a torturing ogre if you want to. Tell Him that when you see Him.

 

[Sophrosyne]

Annihilation is the opposing side's word. The word is death. Jesus died for our sins. He died on the cross. He became a dead person. Unconscious, dead, not alive, dead. Then 3 days later He came back to life.

I'm not being evasive. If the penalty for sin is eternal torment why wasn't Jesus eternally tormented when He took on our sins?

Again I ask you.... If those who are not saved (have sins still) are annihilated then why isn't Jesus (who accepted sins) not annihilated just like they are? I contend if God doesn't annihilate Jesus why should he annihilate anyone else who has sins on them for it?

 

[Timothew]

Again I ask you.... If those who are not saved (have sins still) are annihilated then why isn't Jesus (who accepted sins) not annihilated just like they are? I contend if God doesn't annihilate Jesus why should he annihilate anyone else who has sins on them for it?

Jesus died on the cross, taking the penalty of sin with Him, which is death. The reason for the term annihilation is to distinguish this death, which is true death from the death that the tormentalists imagine which isn't really death at all, since it supposedly includes consciousness.

There, I've answered your question 3 times, now please answer my question.

If the penalty for sin is eternal torment in fiery flames in hell as the tormentalists believe, why wasn't Jesus put into eternal torment in fiery flames in hell for all eternity when He took the penalty of sin for us?

 

[Timothew]

If the penalty for sin is eternal torment in fiery flames in hell as the tormentalists believe, why wasn't Jesus put into eternal torment in fiery flames in hell for all eternity when He took the penalty of sin for us?

(In Ben Stein's Voice) Anyone? Anyone?

 

[Sophrosyne]

Jesus died on the cross, taking the penalty of sin with Him, which is death. The reason for the term annihilation is to distinguish this death, which is true death from the death that the tormentalists imagine which isn't really death at all, since it supposedly includes consciousness.

If Jesus did not experience the same as those in sin experience (annihilation) then did he pay for our sins (wages)?
You have not answered the question at all, but are just dancing around it.

There, I've answered your question 3 times, now please answer my question.

If the penalty for sin is eternal torment in fiery flames in hell as the tormentalists believe, why wasn't Jesus put into eternal torment in fiery flames in hell for all eternity when He took the penalty of sin for us?

God is omnipresent, it is quite possible for Jesus to have spent/spend an eternity in Hell for each of us and also be in heaven too. I answered this many posts ago.

 

[Timothew]

That's your answer?

 

[Sophrosyne]

That's your answer?

Yes, but I will add that Jesus may or may not have gone to the same actual Hell everyone else spends time in forever. He was separated from the Father just as if he were sent to Hell itself and God poured out his wrath (torment) upon Jesus for our sins at that time and his suffering could easily be on some infinite scale we cannot comprehend.

 

[Timothew]

If Jesus did not experience the same as those in sin experience (annihilation) then did he pay for our sins (wages)?
You have not answered the question at all, but are just dancing around it.
God is omnipresent, it is quite possible for Jesus to have spent/spend an eternity in Hell for each of us and also be in heaven too. I answered this many posts ago.

Ok, I'll try to answer your question in terms you can relate to.

God is omnipresent so it is quite possible for Jesus to be annihilated on the cross for each of us and then raise from annihilation three days later and present Himself alive to the disciples. Usually I use the term "death on the cross" but it seems like nobody understands what "death" is. They keep asking questions like "Dude, where did Jesus go when He died?"

 

[Timothew]

Yes, but I will add that Jesus may or may not have gone to the same actual Hell everyone else spends time in forever. He was separated from the Father just as if he were sent to Hell itself and God poured out his wrath (torment) upon Jesus for our sins at that time and his suffering could easily be on some infinite scale we cannot comprehend.

Cool, and now the scripture references for your belief?

 

[Sophrosyne]

Here is an example of infinite scales.
Lets start off with a square foot of land that takes a bucketful of water to properly nourish it. If you had 1000 buckets you would need 1000 square feet of land to "instantly" use all the water up.
If you had an infinite amount of buckets of water, then you would need an infinite amount of land to be able to use the water up in that same respect.
By this logic take buckets of water and replace it with God's wrath and square foot of land and replace it with Jesus and you could instantly "use up all of God's wrath".

 

[Sophrosyne]

Cool, and now the scripture references for your belief?

Give me scriptural reference why God has to annihilate men instead of sending them to Hell and not annihilate Jesus first.
For Jesus to go to hell or suffer torment there he would have to go past your annihilistic doctrine somehow... what loophole in scripture gives him an out and nobody else?

 

[WillieH]

willieH: Hi Sop...

Read it or don't, doesn't matter to me bro, ...there are others searching, which shall read it...

God poured out his wrath upon Jesus on the cross.

Where does it say this, Sophrosyne? book, chapter, verse. ...have fun finding it.

Grace and Miracles: Did God Pour Out His Wrath on Jesus?

You have concluded your beliefs upon HEARSAY... and so HEARSAY is thereby become your teaching to others...

Wrath is such that it on a level has to be satified.

The WRATH of God ...IS... NOW, and IS COME AGAINST ALL unrighteousness and ungodliness of men -- Rom 1:20

That GOD brings about the REAPING of what we have SOWN is not a "satisfying". It is a principle which is seen, and ON-GOING, in LIFE not just in the Scriptures...

Do right, then right is your reward concerning the FLESH (NOW), ...Do WRONG, and wrong is your reward concerning the FLESH (NOW) -- Gal 6:8

Do unto others that which you wish done unto YOU... If you should do EVIL unto others, then GOD is not bringing wrath against you that "satistifies" Him, ...YOU ARE bringing that WRATH upon yourself...

AIDS, abuse, war, disease of all forms, natural disasters in nature and myriads of other forms of sorrow... are examples of wrath which we endure individually and collectively due to our behaviors individually and collectively in the FLESH.

This life is not a "warm-up" for WORSE... The JUDGMENT of GOD IS taking place, NOW as JESUS clearly noted -- John 12:31 -- and which MOST willingly ignore.

And that JUDGMENT of THIS WORLD ...IS... done NOW... in the LAKE of FIRE in which this life IS encompassed -- John 12:31

ALL THINGS are WITHIN GOD for He is EVERYWHERE -- Acts 17:28 -- Psalm 139:8 -- and GOD ...IS... (not will be) a CONSUMING FIRE -- Heb 12:29 -- within Him ...IS... (not will be) EVIL destroyed and GOOD preserved -- 1 Cor 3:11-15

All your excessive appeal to emotion followed by pitying me doesn't lead me to think you are interested in intelligent discussion at all.....

FIRST --- Please... exaggeration is your "MANNER of DISCUSSION"... ...my discussion is RESEARCHED, and DETAILED, and utilizes SCRIPTURE as its foundation. And is most certainly done on an INTELLIGENT and fully RESEARCHED, basis.

Just because you do not like what I say (as it differs with you and your position), does not reduce it to being unintelligent... Please...


SECOND --- ONE small sentence at the end of my post concerning PITY is certainly NOT ..."excessive",

One sentence which truly contains pity for such blatant IGNORANCE of the,

GOD of LOVE -- 1 John 4:8 -- and the,


GOD of PEACE -- Rom 15:33 -- Heb 13:20 -- 1 Cor 14:33 -- Phil 4:9 -- 1 Thess 5:23 -- 2 Thess 3:16 -- as well as the CLEARLY stated SCRIPTURAL evidences of the,


GOSPEL of PEACE -- Eph 6:15 -- Rom 10:15,

As well as ignoring the GRACE which contains FORGIVENESS and MERCY -- Rom 1:20 -- 2 Cor 5:19 -- and is that which ABOUNDS MUCH MORE than SIN... not to mention, the LOVE that IS the GOSPEL, ...noted serverally and CLEARLY within the NEW TESTAMENT, and is that which YOU willingly IGNORE.

Preaching your BAD NEWS in its stead.

I shall probably ignore your replies to me for the pity remark.

What else is new?

You IGNORE Scripture, so why should you pay any attention to the references to it that I give you?

You are more than welcome to gather and then take your current (hearsay oriented) "ways" before Him at His coming, and this is what you (and MANY others) shall hear from Him: Matt 7:22-23

Having distorted the GOSPEL of PEACE, to be about HELL and DESTRUCTION and WRATH, in the stead of SALVATION and LOVE and PEACE... Completely MISSING your calling...

As far as YOU ignoring me, ...MOX NIX (don't matter) ...I could care less.

I still remain in pity of your present positioning Sop, ...concerning the GOSPEL of PEACE (which means GOOD NEWS, not BAD),

As well as your ignorance of the COMPLETE (perfect) and ALL ENCOMPASSING VICTORY of CHRIST at His WONDERFUL and REDEEMING Cross -- Col 1:20 -- Rom 11:25-26 -- 2 Cor 5:19 -- 1 Cor 15:54 -- 1 Cor 15:22 -- 1 Cor 15:28 -- John 1:29

And I shall continue to pray for all which bring a message of fallacy to the WORLD that GOD so (unchangingly -- Mal 3:6 -- Heb 13:8) LOVES... and sent His SON to SAVE -- 1 John 4:14 -- (not to condemn or destroy it -- John 3:17)...


Peace...


...willieH

 

[Timothew]

Here is an example of infinite scales.
Lets start off with a square foot of land that takes a bucketful of water to properly nourish it. If you had 1000 buckets you would need 1000 square feet of land to "instantly" use all the water up.
If you had an infinite amount of buckets of water, then you would need an infinite amount of land to be able to use the water up in that same respect.
By this logic take buckets of water and replace it with God's wrath and square foot of land and replace it with Jesus and you could instantly "use up all of God's wrath".

But if the wrath is infinite and eternal, and if Jesus took that infinite and eternal penalty, then He is still enduring the penalty. Yet the scriptures say that He ascended and is sitting at the right hand of God the Father. So He is not still enduring the eternal penalty. If the penalty is truely eternal punishment, then He has not paid the penalty and then we are still in our sins. We still owe a penalty of eternal torment (If the wages of sin is eternal torment). But of the wages of sin is death, and Jesus died His death instead of our death, then we have had the penalty for our sins paid by Him. "Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?" Romans 6:3 (NIV)

 

[Timothew]

Give me scriptural reference why God has to annihilate men instead of sending them to Hell and not annihilate Jesus first.
For Jesus to go to hell or suffer torment there he would have to go past your annihilistic doctrine somehow... what loophole in scripture gives him an out and nobody else?

His death on the cross is the "loophole". Actually no loophole at all, He paid the penalty of sin, which is death. That opens a huge "loophole" for us! If we trust in Him for salvation from death, then His death becomes payment for our sins. Then we don't have to pay the penalty of sin, which is death. As I've said (Paul said) the wages of sin is death.

 

[Sophrosyne]

But if the wrath is infinite and eternal, and if Jesus took that infinite and eternal penalty, then He is still enduring the penalty. Yet the scriptures say that He ascended and is sitting at the right hand of God the Father. So He is not still enduring the eternal penalty. If the penalty is truely eternal punishment, then He has not paid the penalty and then we are still in our sins. We still owe a penalty of eternal torment (If the wages of sin is eternal torment). But of the wages of sin is death, and Jesus died His death instead of our death, then we have had the penalty for our sins paid by Him. "Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?" Romans 6:3 (NIV)

When you are dealing with a universe we do not completely comprehend it is possible Jesus could go to another dimension, suffer that penalty and come back finished while it would both be infinite, eternal, and finished simultaneously. Your problem is your finite mind cannot begin to fathom such things as possible while I can begin to see the possibilities of such.
You cannot use finite (man's) logic to comprehend the infinite eternal God, you have to go beyond that to even start to consider what God "could" do if he had more power than we do.
<edit>
I will add that for a finite being to pay an infinite penalty it takes infinite time, but if you have an infinite being paying an infinite penalty then it could be possible that an infinite time amount is not required (time may only have to exist for an instant to pay the price).

 

[Timothew]

When you are dealing with a universe we do not completely comprehend it is possible Jesus could go to another dimension, suffer that penalty and come back finished while it would both be infinite, eternal, and finished simultaneously. Your problem is your finite mind cannot begin to fathom such things as possible while I can begin to see the possibilities of such.
You cannot use finite (man's) logic to comprehend the infinite eternal God, you have to go beyond that to even start to consider what God "could" do if he had more power than we do.

true, true...


But we can read the bible and believe it when it says that the wages of sin is death. Then we don't need to go looking for another dimension beyond space and time where Jesus is currently being tortured to satisfy your idea of what God's penalty for sin is.

 

[Timothew]

Rod Serling

There is a fifth dimension, beyond that which is known to man. It is a dimension as vast as space and as timeless as infinity. It is the middle ground between light and shadow, between science and superstition, and it lies between the pit of man's fears and the summit of his knowledge. This is the dimension of imagination. It is an area which we call The Twilight Zone.

 

[Sophrosyne]

true, true...


But we can read the bible and believe it when it says that the wages of sin is death. Then we don't need to go looking for another dimension beyond space and time where Jesus is currently being tortured to satisfy your idea of what God's penalty for sin is.

If you have all the answers what happened on the cross? I don't truly know all what happened. I conclude for Jesus to take our sins upon him the earthly dimensional realm was not designed for that to be possible so he must have been in another realm (not in OUR universe as we know it) and also in the Earthly realm simultaneously. God's ways are so beyond our ways if you shoehorn him into just our known universe you will be stuck with doctrine that mirrors man's emotion and logic entirely.

 

[Timothew]

When you are dealing with a universe we do not completely comprehend it is possible Jesus could go to another dimension...

The Twilight Zone?

 

[Timothew]

If you have all the answers what happened on the cross? I don't truly know all what happened. I conclude for Jesus to take our sins upon him the earthly dimensional realm was not designed for that to be possible so he must have been in another realm (not in OUR universe as we know it) and also in the Earthly realm simultaneously. God's ways are so beyond our ways if you shoehorn him into just our known universe you will be stuck with doctrine that mirrors man's emotion and logic entirely.

I don't have all the answers. The bible tells us what happened on the cross. Jesus died there, paying the penalty of our sins, which is death.

As to other dimensions or parallel universes, I have no knowledge of them.