Let's Talk About Hell (4)

[WillieH]

Well then, you are in good company. Willie is constantly yelling (using upper case) and raving in lunatic fashion.

Well... please provide WHO and UPON WHAT AUTHORITY, ...has defined the use of CAPS as "yelling"...

About "lunatic ravings", ...lunatic compared to WHO? YOU? Are YOU our measure, LM?

What have I said that (in your opinion) contained "LUNACY"? And why might you call them "RAVINGS"? Because they might be in disagreement with YOU, LM?

Let's face it, ...these remarks of yours are just unfounded... and more whining than anything else.

I do apologize if indeed I have caused any hurt feelings! (although such should not enter into debate/discussion if they are so sensitive)...

I use CAPS, italics, boldings and colorizations for emphasis and/or respect toward GOD and His Son [CHRIST, YHVH]... and did not realize that you (or anyone else), might be so easily offended by typewritten words...

No harm was or IS intended in their useage by me... mmkay?

BTW... why not address what I say, instead of gossiping to others about me, LM?



pEACE...


...willieH

 

[Sophrosyne]

I don't have all the answers. The bible tells us what happened on the cross. Jesus died there, paying the penalty of our sins, which is death.

As to other dimensions or parallel universes, I have no knowledge of them.

Yet you insist on annihilation without knowing the entirety of the cross which may completely render your doctrine invalid. Some scientists have said God operates in at least 12 dimensions (3 sets of LxWxHxtime) if not more. If you do not know this then you are at a disadvantage when trying to comprehend God.

 

[WillieH]

You know one thing that puzzles me, annihilists go on and on about the wages of sin is death yet if Jesus took all our sin why was he not annihilated for it (as they contend instant obliteration etc.)?

ANNHILATION, HELL... whats the diff? Either way there is NO PEACE in either! And so,


What "puzzles"me, is how you use PEACE as part of your posting presentation, yet preach OTHER than PEACE in your teachings.


GOD is called PEACE.-- Rom 15:33 -- Phil 4:9
The MESSAGE of the GOSPEL is called PEACE -- Eph 6:15
The work of the CROSS is called PEACE -- Col 1:20

Yet you preach about HELL? What PEACE is found in HELL, sop?


PEACE...

...willieH

 

[Timothew]

Yet you insist on annihilation without knowing the entirety of the cross which may completely render your doctrine invalid. Some scientists have said God operates in at least 12 dimensions (3 sets of LxWxHxtime) if not more. If you do not know this then you are at a disadvantage when trying to comprehend God.

OK, Then tell me more about this dimension beyond space and time. I'm particularly interested in the 5th Dimension, the Twilight Zone.

Are you trying to tell me that the philosophers from the Dark Ages who dreamed up the idea of eternal torture in hell had at least 12 dimensions of parallel universes in mind?

The idea of tormentalism is just getting more and more bizarrre.

 

[WillieH]

When you are dealing with a universe we do not completely comprehend it is possible Jesus could go to another dimension, suffer that penalty and come back finished while it would both be infinite, eternal, and finished simultaneously.

No offense bro, but I think you have watched too many Stargate or Star Trek episodes...

Your problem is your finite mind cannot begin to fathom such things as possible while I can begin to see the possibilities of such.

...yeah YOU can "begin" see (with your science fiction, not spiritual eyes), but we can't? Please! ...get real!

You cannot use finite (man's) logic to comprehend the infinite eternal God, you have to go beyond that to even start to consider what God "could" do if he had more power than we do.

Really brother Sop, get a grip.

You are in the very same FINITE boat as are the rest of us.

I will add that for a finite being to pay an infinite penalty it takes infinite time, but if you have an infinite being paying an infinite penalty then it could be possible that an infinite time amount is not required (time may only have to exist for an instant to pay the price).

FIRST -- Man cannot PAY for even ONE SIN... And Scripture does not imply that MAN can do so... Please note in Scripture where MAN is able to PAY for even one SIN. -- thanks.

As well, the PRICE has been PAID in FULL by CHRIST... for ALL SIN -- Col 1:20 -- 1 Tim 2:6 -- John 1:29 -- 2 Cor 5:19 -- there is no need to "pay" for something which is already PAID.



SECOND --- In order to "pay" on an INFINITE basis, ...this basis is WITHOUT BEGINNING as well as WITHOUT END...

INFINITY does not mean "from now on"... it means WITHOUT BOUNDS or LIMITATIONS, ...period. In any "direction" -- be it forward, backward, up, down, whatever.

Infinity - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary


ALSO, "time" is a created and FINITE entity, for it HAD a beginning (see Gen 1:1)

There was a FIRST DAY (which means there were NO "DAYS" before it), and a LAST "DAY" (which means there shall be no more "DAYS" after it)


THIRD --- Something INFINITE (God), would have INFINITE mercy and compassion, upon the FINITE which cannot possibly KNOW nor DO what HE KNOWS and DOES... Otherwise, ILLOGIC TYRANNY, BULLYING and ABUSE are afoot.

Shall you be an accomplished 65 year old MATHEMATICIAN, and ask a 5 yr old a question about TRIGONOMETRY or CALCULUS, and if the 5 yr old cannot answer correctly, then proceed to TORMENT that child for being incorrect? Or for NOT KNOWING what YOU KNOW?

Please... it certainly does not take a rocket scientist to see the flaws in such thinking.

Especially when GOD clearly in His WORD, ...makes the claim that HE, IS on an UNCHANGINGLY -- Mal 3:6 and INFINITE (without beginning or end) basis:


LOVE -- 1 John 4:8
PEACE -- Rom 15:33
FORGIVING -- Matt 5:38-44
ETERNALLY MERCIFUL -- Psalm 136 -- (entire chapter)


Peace...


...willieH

 

[Sophrosyne]

OK, Then tell me more about this dimension beyond space and time. I'm particularly interested in the 5th Dimension, the Twilight Zone.

Are you trying to tell me that the philosophers from the Dark Ages who dreamed up the idea of eternal torture in hell had at least 12 dimensions of parallel universes in mind?

The idea of tormentalism is just getting more and more bizarrre.

It is possible our universe has hidden dimensions where God can operate as Jesus did after his resurrection when he appeared to about 500 people very quickly all over the place. I contend Hell is either in another set of dimensions in our universe but most likely is in a seperate set of dimensions with Time there not being anything we understand it. Explain how 1 day in Heaven can equal 1000 days elsewhere (implied on earth) if it did not have its own dimension of time associated with it?

 

[Sophrosyne]

No offense bro, but I think you have watched too many Stargate or Star Trek episodes...




...yeah YOU can "begin" see (with your science fiction, not spiritual eyes), but we can't? Please! ...get real!




Really brother Sop, get a grip.

You need to take a course on debate ethics badly.

 

[Truth_Warrior]

This is getting strange.

 

[Sophrosyne]

This is getting strange.

Only to those who cannot fathom anything beyond our Universe. God existed before our universe existed... how? He existed somehow in dimensions/universe/etc that are related to his existence that we may never understand.

 

[he-man]

Give me scriptural reference why God has to annihilate men instead of sending them to Hell and not annihilate Jesus first.
For Jesus to go to hell or suffer torment there he would have to go past your annihilistic doctrine somehow... what loophole in scripture gives him an out and nobody else?

Well....Let's see now....he did not have an out...he descended into hell, that is the GRAVE, no torture, just dead for 3 1/2 days....do you have spirit?

Joh 5:26For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

Col 1:17 He is in front of all things, and in him all things stand together.
18 And he is the head of the body, the assembly: who is a beginning of the firstborn from the dead; that among all he might be first.

1Co 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Mat 26:52 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

Luk 20:16 He shall come and destroy these husbandmen, and shall give the vineyard to others. And when they heard it, they said, God forbid.

Php 3:19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)

Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also vitalize your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

 

[Sophrosyne]

Well....Let's see now....he did not have an out...he descended into hell, that is the GRAVE, no torture, just dead for 3 1/2 days....do you have spirit?

Jesus lives and proved he lives after this life just as those who also die will live after this life. Jesus suffered for our sins, just as those who have sins and reject him as suffering on their behalf will yet suffer for their sins in the afterlife. If Jesus was not annihilated then nobody will be.

 

[createdtoworship]

OK, Then tell me more about this dimension beyond space and time. I'm particularly interested in the 5th Dimension, the Twilight Zone.

Are you trying to tell me that the philosophers from the Dark Ages who dreamed up the idea of eternal torture in hell had at least 12 dimensions of parallel universes in mind?

The idea of tormentalism is just getting more and more bizarrre.

So you apparently reject physics huh? Nice.

why the soul is eternal and why hell must be as well
the weight of an empty floppy disk is .8 ounce. But a completely full one is still .8 ounce. Software has no mass, but controls the way the machine operates.

The mass of the floppy disk is .8 ounce, and will remain .8 ounce regardless of whether its individual magnetic particles are charged in a positive or negative manner. It's the pattern of neg (0) and pos (1) polarity of the existing particles already on the disk that make up what we call "software", not whether the disk is empty (which it is not) or full (also, which it is not)

the soul is just the software of the human body...it's information in the neurons

all non-material entities (e.g. information,
consciousness, intelligence and will) are massless and thus
have zero weight. Information is always based on an idea;
it is thus also massless and does not arise from physical
or chemical processes.

a quote from an essay on information
http://creation.com/images/pdfs/tj/j...3_2_96-102.pdf

time is the fourth dimension (a physical property)

time varies with mass acceleration of gravity, if you took two twins and sent one around the nearest star alpha centauri at light speed, they would be younger than the one on the earth.

Because time varies with mass acceleration of gravity, if you have no mass then there is nothing to accelerate and you are exempt from time altogether.

so the soul is outside of time. Therefore the soul HAS to be eternal.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tulJnR5siYs&feature=player_embedded

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7M6LqEAukg&feature=player_embedded

 

[he-man]

Jesus lives and proved he lives after this life just as those who also die will live after this life. Jesus suffered for our sins, just as those who have sins and reject him as suffering on their behalf will yet suffer for their sins in the afterlife. If Jesus was not annihilated then nobody will be.

he did not have an out...he descended into hell, that is the GRAVE, no torture, just dead, extinct, non-existant for 3 1/2 days....do you have spirit

Joh 19:36 For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken.

Mat 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Act 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my spirit in hell,[the grave] neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Psa 49:15 But God will redeem my spirit from the power of the grave: for he shall receive me. Selah

Psa 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my spirit in hell;[the grave] neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Luk 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he breathed out.

 

[Sophrosyne]

he did not have an out...he descended into hell, that is the GRAVE, no torture, just dead, extinct, non-existant for 3 1/2 days....do you have spirit

The bible is silent on what happened those days in Hell. Do you think God could be non existent for 3.5 days? I think not.

 

[WillieH]

You need to take a course on debate ethics badly.

Oh really? I think you need to do more research, and less complaining.

What particular "debate ethic" have I violated Sop? Just because your habit is to speculate instead of investigate, is not a breach of any ethics on my part.

WHO and upon WHAT AUTHORITY are these "debate ethics" established? And where are these "debate ethics" so noted, Sop?

That you suggest JESUS going in & out of "dimensions", and thereby "paying" an INFINITE price, for a FINITE error, ...is nothing but speculative earthly observation, as "DIMENSIONS" are not even suggested in the WORD of God... nor is there any suggestion that JESUS did anything but DIE as an UNBLEMISHED and HOLY sacrifice for our SIN... and was RAISED after 3 days IN DEATH, by the Father...

NO doings of JESUS, while He was in DEATH are suggested by Scripture! Show me one!

No traveling between "dimensions" is suggested in Scripture, either!

Just because I disagree with your position and am able to substanciate that which I believe in my observations of the WORD, ...WITH the WORD, (and YOU do NOT) does not mean that I need any course in "ethics"... I have CLEARLY stated my case WITH SCRIPTURE not just opinion, as do you.



Peace...


...willieH

 

[WillieH]

Only to those who cannot fathom anything beyond our Universe. God existed before our universe existed... how? He existed somehow in dimensions/universe/etc that are related to his existence that we may never understand.

YHVH God IS the Universe, Sop! He is ALL! And ALL things that ARE... finds their existence --- IN HIM... including the UNIVERSE.


The UNIVERSE has ALWAYS existed IN YHVH God for it is IN HIM and HE is UNCHANGING, ...it just was UNREVEALED... GOD is about the REVELATION of Himself, in which ALL existent THINGS find themselves...


Just as YOU do not know even hold an IOTA of ALL KNOWLEDGE (neither do I)... but both of us are ETERNALLY subject to the ONE which GIVES revelation of ALL things that ARE WITHIN Him,

One of which is the UNIVERSE...
One of which is YOU...
One of which is I...


Scripture disagrees with your statements above:


1 Cor 15:28 -- And when ALL THINGS shall be subdued unto Him then shall the Son BE SUBJECT unto Him that PUT ALL THINGS under Him, that GOD may BE ALL [existing] ...in ALL...


The conclusion of the work of YHVH God is to SHARE ALL of Himself with ALL... As He has BEEN (and will always be) totally with JESUS -- Col 2:9 --

Shall He also be TOTALLY with ALL...

Matter of fact, this is ALL a done deal... we have yet to traverse TIME, in order to arrive = END where we BEGAN (in this temporal realm), emergent from THE ETERNAL -- Job 38:7 -- Luke 15:11-32 -- where we WERE before this realm!

And speculative IMAGINARY "dimensions" are completely irrelevant, nor are they even proveable outside the simple "dimensions" of HEIGHT, WIDTH, LENGTH, and (if one must insist) TIME...


In this realm we have the VISIBLE and the INVISIBLE, both are "existent"...


Just because something is INVISIBLE to us, does not mean it is non- existent NOR that is resides in another (imaginary) "dimension", on the basis that it cannot be seen... It is just, UNREVEALED to our eyes...


LOVE for instance... Is an INVISIBLE and UNMEASUREABLE entity, which all men SEEK, yet, no PICTURE or IMAGE of LOVE is available to us... LOVE resides in the HEART, which is also INVISIBLE


How about the HEART? (spiritual entity not something that pumps blood), is ALSO existent but INVISIBLE...


How about the ATMOSPHERE, which is the Breath of LIFE, ...Sop? Do you SEE the air you breathe? ...just because you (or I) do not "see" AIR, does not mean it is non-existent or "in another dimension"...


Stick with what you know... and any "dimensions" aside from our finite experience with those with which we interact (height, width, length and time), are imaginary, and non-existent when the TRUTH of the WORD is considered.


These IMAGINARY "dimensions" only "live" within the BLANK and UNPROVEN speculations of men, which cannot prove their existence... And are as IRRELEVANT to us and our true reality in LIFE, ...to the same degree as the characters in Stephen Kings latest novel...



Peace...


...willieH

 

[tackattack]

Aside from the dimensional wierdness being thrown around and the distracting ad hominems, I'd like to get on point in this fast moving thread.

Perhaps we should establish what everyone feels death and a soul are and what course they take. Would someone like to volunteer? Oh wait, I suppose it's only in good form I start and let the vultures have a first shot. I've already listed verses for my belief in hell and the after life so no need to do it again.

1- We are alive with a material self (body) and an imaterial essense refered to as the breath of God in scripture (I refer to it as Spirit - based on your level of Greek and Hebrew understanding you'll see why), given to us way back in Genesis. Neither are our mind which conceptually give us the ability to think rationalize and have things like a personality and memories(mind).

I see what most people define as soul is some combination of the consciousness and Spirit. I agree with that for a surface definition. As we develop memories, ideas and a personality it is the immaterial part of ourselves imprinted on from our experience. This is all seperate from the Holy Spirit, which is granted from God and is of God and is God and teaches us through our immaterial soul. Which in turn informs our consciousness.

2- Prior to Jesus' conquering death Jewish belief (Jesus was a Jew) was that the soul went to a place of darkness called Sheol, both righteous and unrighteous. It would be Hades in Greek sometimes reffered to as the Bosom of Abraham. This is where Jesus would have gone prior to his resurrection. It is a place that is different from Heaven and Hell. Call it purgatory similar to Catholic belief if that makes it easier.

3- If you were really good and worth Jesus saved you from Sheol to be with him in Heaven to sit with the saints referenced in Rev. 4. If you were moderate you waited, bad tortured, etc. Whatever went on there went on no one know's for sure but those that have been there, and that's not me. Feasibly though it would be a place you could still repent from or suffer long enough to pay for your sins, if that's what you believe. I don't, I believe we have this life to decide if we follow Christ and that's it. Regardless, Hebrew 2:9 clearly states that Jesus did taste death for us.

4- Now in Revelations 1:18 most translations say Jesus has the keys to Hades and has conquered death. To me when he died and was resurrected he conquered death and if you couple that with Jesus saying that the dead go to sleep. I surmise that when we die out body dies and decays, our spirit goes back to God (Ecc. 12:6-7) and our "soul" or consciousness sleeps(Ecc. 9:5) or rests essentialy ceasing to be temporarily (or Psalms 146:4) until the second coming (Rev.20).


How does that break down in my heart? Pretty simple I'll use a practical and personal example (of course this is really just between him and God, just my speculation):
1- My Uncle died 2 weeks ago, their holy spirit goes back to God, body is getting cremated. His soul isn't in heaven or hell. He wasn't a believer so no hope of heaven prior to judgement. Hell or Ghenna won't be used until the coming of Christ, so he could be in Sheol. Now he could be there suffering or waiting, or repenting. Hopefully come judgment day he'll get a shot at Heaven through our families prayers and his repentance.
2-Let's say I die tomorrow, my holy spirit goes back to God, body is getting cremated. Do I think I'll go to heaven or hell, nope. I don't think I'm worthy for paradise and again hell isn't till the second coming. I'm assured Jesus petitions for my soul so perhaps I'll just slumber and wake up to his face on judgement day. Perhaps I'll go to Sheol and suffer, or be in paradise, or just wait and petition for my family. Then on Judgement day I'll see my uncle again and hopefully we'll both be going to the same place, Heaven.

Have at it.

 

[he-man]

The bible is silent on what happened those days in Hell. Do you think God could be non existent for 3.5 days? I think not.

That is exactly what proves my point.

Is 43:10 You are My witness, said GOD, and servant who I have chosen: so that you may know and believe Me, to understand that I am He: before Me there was no God formed, nor shall there exist1 after Me.

1* Hebrew יהיה to be, exist, be present; happen, occur, take place: become, turn into

De 4:35 Unto you it was revealed, that you might understand since Jehovah, He is God; there is none else besides Him.

Psa 49:15 But God will redeem my spirit from the power of the grave: for he shall receive me. Selah

Mat 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Mr 15:37 And letting go in a great voice, Jesus breathed out.

43 Came Joseph from Arimathea, a decent figure, an assembly man, who also, himself, was for the receiving of the gift of the Kingdom of God, and having dared entered in to Pilate and asked for the body of Jesus.

44 And Pilate wondered if he was already laid down: and bidding the centurion before him, he asked him if he had already died.

45 And having known from the centurion, he presented the corpse to Joseph.

 

[Sophrosyne]

That is exactly what proves my point.

silence about something proves nothing at all.

Mat 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

This proves nothing either as when in the whale he was not dead at all in fact he was completely alive and able to think, eat, and speak.

 

[he-man]

silence about something proves nothing at all.This proves nothing either as when in the whale he was not dead at all in fact he was completely alive and able to think, eat, and speak.

it was revealed, that you might understand
Heb 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

Psa 49:15 But God will redeem my spirit from the power of the grave: for he shall receive me. Selah

Mr 15:37 And letting go in a great voice, Jesus breathed out.

43 Came Joseph from Arimathea, a decent figure, an assembly man, who also, himself, was for the receiving of the gift of the Kingdom of God, and having dared entered in to Pilate and asked for the body of Jesus.

44 And Pilate wondered if he was already laid down: and bidding the centurion before him, he asked him if he had already died.

45 And having known from the centurion, he presented the corpse to Joseph.

Is 43:10 You are My witness, said GOD, and servant who I have chosen: so that you may know and believe Me, to understand that I am He: before Me there was no God formed, nor shall there exist1 after Me.

1* Hebrew יהיה to be, exist, be present; happen, occur, take place: become, turn into

De 4:35 Unto you Is 43:10 You are My witness, said GOD, and servant who I have chosen: so that you may know and believe Me, to understand that I am He: before Me there was no God formed, nor shall there exist1 after Me.

1* Hebrew יהיה to be, exist, be present; happen, occur, take place: become, turn into

De 4:35 Unto you it was revealed, that you might understand since Jehovah, He is God; there is none else besides Him.