Let's Talk About Hell (2)

[createdtoworship]

Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matthew 10:28
​

Jesus clearly stated that the soul can be destroyed. But of the spirit nothing is said.

Do you have some experience with the spirit world? My experiences of the spirit would have definitely brought some computer analogies to my mind. But outside of the context of personal experience with the spirit world I would be very loath to use a computer analogy. These discussions and debates do not lend themselves to discussion of personal experience with the spirit world.

computers and physics describe the spirit world pretty good. Our soul is massless like software, and because it is massless it is outside of time- states the theory of relativity.

 

[createdtoworship]

Gradyll, read my post about 2 Thessalonians 1. It pertains to the eternal punishment part of the argument.

Back to the fall now. I can accept that a spiritual death occurred in man because of sin. How does it explain us aging and dying though? Physical death is real. How we die has been explained already. We die in several different how's. Why do we die though if the judgement was only mentioning spiritual death? It doesn't say "If you eat of the tree of knowledge you shall spiritually die." It just says (in the day that you eat of the fruit or as soon as you eat of the fruit) you shall surely die.

we age and die because of the sin - the soul that sins shall die. the judgement being described was not the same. It was a spiritual death.

I couldn't find your post about 1 thess....

but here is the verses...

I see eternal punishment here....


2 Thessalonians 1

1Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ:

2Grace unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

3We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is meet, because that your faith groweth exceedingly, and the charity of every one of you all toward each other aboundeth;

4So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:

5Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:

6Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;

7And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

10When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

11Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:

12That the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and ye in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Timothew]

I once heard it is the 'most mature' one whose responsibility it is to seek reconciliation....ouch. I always hated that saying...how do you like it? Or you Timothew?

Good nite my brothers.

Your views are atheistic.
Man up
Grow up
constant evasions
puerile tantrum

I was wrong to respond to LutheranMafia's taunts. By responding I was brought down to his level. Not responding lets the false accusations stand. I lose either way. Well played LM.

 

[Mikecpking]

computers and physics describe the spirit world pretty good. Our soul is massless like software, and because it is massless it is outside of time- states the theory of relativity.

How much do you you weigh? Because that is the mass of your 'soul' (you) biblically speaking.

 

[Timothew]

but here is the verses...

I see eternal punishment here....


2 Thessalonians 1

1Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ:

2Grace unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

3We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is meet, because that your faith groweth exceedingly, and the charity of every one of you all toward each other aboundeth;

4So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:

5Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:

6Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;

7And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

10When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

11Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:

12That the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and ye in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

This says that the punishment is destruction, not torment. You even bolded "punished with everlasting destruction".

 

[Hillsage]

Originally Posted by Hillsage I once heard it is the 'most mature' one, whose responsibility it is, to FIRST seek reconciliation....ouch.

I was wrong to respond to LutheranMafia's taunts. By responding I was brought down to his level. Not responding lets the false accusations stand. I lose either way. Well played LM.

And in your heart you believe the above response was 'right'?

We've all responded poorly too many times and can relate to the frustration we've been reading. But I have a different observation than you just posted. I wasn't 'brought down to their level', I merely failed a character test and manifested that level where I am truly at.

Many think that they have the fruit of the Spirit in their lives. But when a challenge hits they 'loose it'. If it's not the love/peace of God in a storm...it is not God's love/peace, it's ours...without God.

Matthew 5:11 "Blessed are you when men revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account.

 

[Timothew]

And in your heart you believe the above response was 'right'?

We've all responded poorly too many times and can relate to the frustration we've been reading. But I have a different observation than you just posted. I wasn't 'brought down to their level', I merely failed a character test and manifested that level where I am truly at.

Many think that they have the fruit of the Spirit in their lives. But when a challenge hits they 'loose it'. If it's not the love/peace of God in a storm...it is not God's love/peace, it's ours...without God.

Matthew 5:11 "Blessed are you when men revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account.

I hear you.

Now, look back over the messages. Yes, I believe that I couldn't allow his false accusations and twisting of what I said to stand unchallenged. However if I challenged what he said I am seen as petty.
It was a double-bind.

 

[LutheranMafia]

I answered, you just didn't like the answer. Annihilate is not an accurate term. There are 2 final conditions. Eternal life in Christ or the 2nd Death.

That in no way addresses the question, which I have supposedly lied about your answer on, which is whether or not you believe that billions of non-Christians will be damned to annihilation. (I know you hate having the 2nd death called annihilation, why I can't fathom, other than shiftiness.) You say you have addressed it but you have not. I've asked you a dozen times now and you've called my a liar about it instead of answering the question. The only "answer" that you have given is to quote scripture that does absolutely nothing to clarify the issue. Quoting scripture out of context does not answer whether or not you believe that billions will be annihilated in the 2nd death.

Now answer my question. Why do you continually claim that I don't believe in an afterlife when I clearly believe in the afterlife? Is it because you want to paint me with a false brush the way you did before?

Because the resurrection is not what anyone else in the world means by afterlife. You are making up your own definition of afterlife and having a fit that I won't accept you under such a contrived label. Sorry, you can't manipulate this one and fool anyone, you do not believe in an afterlife.

 

[Lord Herdsetk]

we age and die because of the sin - the soul that sins shall die. the judgement being described was not the same. It was a spiritual death.

I couldn't find your post about 1 thess....

but here is the verses...

I see eternal punishment here....


2 Thessalonians 1

1Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ:

2Grace unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

3We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is meet, because that your faith groweth exceedingly, and the charity of every one of you all toward each other aboundeth;

4So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:

5Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:

6Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;

7And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

10When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

11Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:

12That the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and ye in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

So you read the part about destruction and came out with you are punished forever. Destruction means

1. The action or process of causing so much damage to something that it no longer exists or cannot be repaired
   • - the destruction of the library in Alexandria
   • - the avalanche left a trail of destruction
2. The action or process of killing or being killed
   • - the wanton destruction of human life
3. The ruination or ending of a system or state of affairs
   • - the destruction of a traditional way of life
4. A cause of someone's ruin

If anything, it would point to an end of something rather than eternal torment. The word destruction, ironically, is used in just about all translations of the English version here.

However, aion and aionas are interesting because they mean for an indeterminate period of time. The way it seems though, I'd have to go with two options.

1. God punishes people for a period of time, but ultimately does save them. I will not try to defend nor disprove this theory.

2. God punishes people by destroying those who actively rejected Him. This is still kind of vague, but it would make sense morally and lawfully for God to just wipe someone out instead of constantly tormenting them with fire.

Philippians 3 seems to confirm option 2

17 Join together in following my example, brothers and sisters, and just as you have us as a model, keep your eyes on those who live as we do. 18 For, as I have often told you before and now tell you again even with tears, many live as enemies of the cross of Christ. 19 Their destiny is destruction, their god is their stomach, and their glory is in their shame. Their mind is set on earthly things. 20 But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body.

I'm open to either of these two options. If there is a third one, I'd be interested in it. However, I don't think eternally being punished by torment in hellfire is supported. 'Eternal' punishment is talked about, but what is the punishment?

Also gradyll, kind of a side thing, but where are you getting "the soul that sins will die?" It sounds familiar but I want to check it out again.

 

[Hillsage]

I hear you.

Now, look back over the messages. Yes, I believe that I couldn't allow his false accusations and twisting of what I said to stand unchallenged. However if I challenged what he said I am seen as petty.
It was a double-bind.

But your responses are bringing you a double loss. Defend 'what you say' (even if I don't agree with you. ) But defend it with the character that will bring a smile to the Father and admiration from the brethren who disagree. That victory will echo in the heavens.

Lutheranmafia is not your enemy, and you are not his enemy. The enemy is the ruling spirits that drive you both...as well as all of us. Be led of the Spirit and check for His peace before posting each other.

 

[Hillsage]

why I can't fathom, other than shiftiness.)

I see you 'edited' prior to posting. My hope is, this just got missed.


I went to the website you found...it isn't a JW website at all. They were trying to refute what the JW's believe about nobody has gone to heaven. A view which I am 'presently' holding...pending the next 'rock' someone throws that makes it into my bucket.

 

[LutheranMafia]

That might be an interesting "field" comparison. Especially with you being the young pup between the two of us.

Very unLutheran that's for sure. So why are you Lutheran? What's your past history?

I was raised Lutheran. Then I was an atheist from the age of 13 to 21. After that I was entirely into Eastern religions from the age of 21 to 36. Then I met a rabbinical student and was stunned to fined that doing the tefillon ceremony with him gave the "peace that passeth understanding" (for a little while anyway). That got me back into Western religions and studying the Bible. Along the way I've studied every religion in the world as well as shamanistic traditions.

He can't 'incarnate' but you can...why would that be?

The Bible says next to nothing about people selling their soul, even though it is pervasive in the popular lore of Christian countries. But the Bhagavad Gita (Song of the Lord) talks about it explicitly, specifying that people like Hitler actually incarnate in Hell, which is a final destination for such souls, with no possibility of turning back once they have made such a transformation.

I have to admit this was pleasant LM, I hope it can both, 'last for us' and 'spread to others'....one in particular comes to mind.

I actually think it was some kind of negative spiritual influence, because there was a veil over my eyes, your message looked completely different to me when I went back and reread it. I would have sworn there were lots of out of context Biblical quotes when in fact there was only one Biblical quote, and I thought it was full of things I disagreed with when in fact there was only one statement in the entire post that I disagreed with. I'm not usually so completely out to lunch, I feel like something was up spiritually, a force trying to put a wedge between us.

Good nite my brothers.

Thank you, brother.

 

[LutheranMafia]

I see you 'edited' prior to posting. My hope is, this just got missed.

No, I didn't edit it (I only edited typos). I've been dealing with Timothew patiently for months now, with one brief exception of a single outburst. I couldn't understand how he could be so intelligent much of the time and then so dense at other times. But I no longer believe that it is honest insanity, I do believe that he is shifty.

I went to the website you found...it isn't a JW website at all. They were trying to refute what the JW's believe about nobody has gone to heaven. A view which I am 'presently' holding...pending the next 'rock' someone throws that makes it into my bucket.

Yes, that is what I meant to say, that it was a site arguing against JWs.

 

[LutheranMafia]

I'm open to either of these two options. If there is a third one, I'd be interested in it.

A third option is that the soul is destroyed (Matthew 10:28) but that the spirit is indestructible. Nowhere in the Bible does it speak of the destruction of spirit. My personal theory is that the Outer Darkness (Matthew 8:12, Matthew 22:13, Matthew 25:30 and Jude 1:6) is really where these spirits go. They explode and accelerate towards infinity out beyond the quasars, where light has never reached.

They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever.
Jude 1:13
​

 

[Hillsage]

Yes, that is what I meant to say, that it was a site arguing against JWs.

I guess I misunderstood...yes it happens.

 

[createdtoworship]

So you read the part about destruction and came out with you are punished forever. Destruction means

1. The action or process of causing so much damage to something that it no longer exists or cannot be repaired
   • - the destruction of the library in Alexandria
   • - the avalanche left a trail of destruction
2. The action or process of killing or being killed
   • - the wanton destruction of human life
3. The ruination or ending of a system or state of affairs
   • - the destruction of a traditional way of life
4. A cause of someone's ruin

If anything, it would point to an end of something rather than eternal torment. The word destruction, ironically, is used in just about all translations of the English version here.

However, aion and aionas are interesting because they mean for an indeterminate period of time. The way it seems though, I'd have to go with two options.

1. God punishes people for a period of time, but ultimately does save them. I will not try to defend nor disprove this theory.

2. God punishes people by destroying those who actively rejected Him. This is still kind of vague, but it would make sense morally and lawfully for God to just wipe someone out instead of constantly tormenting them with fire.

Philippians 3 seems to confirm option 2

17 Join together in following my example, brothers and sisters, and just as you have us as a model, keep your eyes on those who live as we do. 18 For, as I have often told you before and now tell you again even with tears, many live as enemies of the cross of Christ. 19 Their destiny is destruction, their god is their stomach, and their glory is in their shame. Their mind is set on earthly things. 20 But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body.

I'm open to either of these two options. If there is a third one, I'd be interested in it. However, I don't think eternally being punished by torment in hellfire is supported. 'Eternal' punishment is talked about, but what is the punishment?

Also gradyll, kind of a side thing, but where are you getting "the soul that sins will die?" It sounds familiar but I want to check it out again.

phillipians three does not speak of fire of judegement.

Ezekiel 18:20 is the soul that sins shall die.

 

[Timothew]

That in no way addresses the question, which I have supposedly lied about your answer on, which is whether or not you believe that billions of non-Christians will be damned to annihilation. (I know you hate having the 2nd death called annihilation, why I can't fathom, other than shiftiness.) You say you have addressed it but you have not. I've asked you a dozen times now and you've called my a liar about it instead of answering the question. The only "answer" that you have given is to quote scripture that does absolutely nothing to clarify the issue. Quoting scripture out of context does not answer whether or not you believe that billions will be annihilated in the 2nd death.


Because the resurrection is not what anyone else in the world means by afterlife. You are making up your own definition of afterlife and having a fit that I won't accept you under such a contrived label. Sorry, you can't manipulate this one and fool anyone, you do not believe in an afterlife.

I object to you calling me shifty.

I just can't answer the question "Will billions be annihilated". It is a very poor question. Jesus didn't say how many would enter life and how many would enter destruction. He said "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it." Will billions enter through this gate? I don't know. I guess you will call me shifty if I don't answer a question that nobody knows the answer to.

I still don't understand how belief in a life after this life is considered to be disbelief in an afterlife. I am doing no manipulation and I am not trying to fool anyone. If I shouldn't call it the afterlife, should I call it the beforelife?

 

[LutheranMafia]

I just can't answer the question "Will billions be annihilated". It is a very poor question. Jesus didn't say how many would enter life and how many would enter destruction. He said "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it." Will billions enter through this gate? I don't know. I guess you will call me shifty if I don't answer a question that nobody knows the answer to.

Hilsage and I think we know the answer. It is a different answer, still we have a conviction on the matter.

I still don't understand how belief in a life after this life is considered to be disbelief in an afterlife. I am doing no manipulation and I am not trying to fool anyone. If I shouldn't call it the afterlife, should I call it the beforelife?

It is called the resurrection, not the afterlife. No one else on the face of the Earth refers to the resurrection as the afterlife.

 

[LutheranMafia]

Ezekiel 18:20 is the soul that sins shall die.

Ah, excellent verse. So there are two verses in the Bible that speak of soul death (along with Matthew 10:28), but none that speak of spirit death.

I believe this is proof that the spirit is indestructible and that the soul and the spirit have a divergent fate for the damned.

 

[Timothew]

Hilsage and I think we know the answer. It is a different answer, still we have a conviction on the matter.

What is your answer, considering Matthew 7:13?
How many will enter the road that leads to destruction?

It is called the resurrection, not the afterlife. No one else on the face of the Earth refers to the resurrection as the afterlife.

OK, I'm happy calling my belief the resurrection instead of an afterlife (even though it is after this first life). You said my belief is atheistic. How is believing in the resurrection atheistic?