Let's Talk About Hell (2)

[createdtoworship]

Bible question: did Jesus mention hell anywhere other than in Matthew?

Scroll down the page until you see the guy on there called neverfear. He explains things in much greater detail than I have been doing so far.

do you believe in soul sleep? You sound like you do. Thats the only answer to what happens to the soul after death and prior to the resurrection. (the only answer if your an annihilationist)

 

[Soulgazer]

Thoughts;
1) OT scripture does not apply. Temple Judaism had no concept of Heaven or Hell, or any kind of afterlife. They believed that when the lights go out the room goes dark. If OT scripture seems to be talking about an afterlife(or death) you are matrixing it in.

2) Pharisee Judaism is not the same as Temple Judaism; It was a hellenized Judaism that incorporated the Greek idea's of an afterlife, and those idea's are recorded in extra-torah scriptures.

3) Matthew was based on Mark, with some elements thrown in to counter Paul. Matthew was written in the Antioch region by Jewish Christians. If you remember Galatians(written about 40 years earlier) Paul complained that the Jewish Christians in the Antioch region were still trying to follow the Law. The Authors of Matthew countered by having Jesus say that "he who taught to break the least of these would be the least in heaven".
4)When comparing Pauline Christianity with the Christianity put forth in Matthew, we are talking about two distinctly different belief systems. In Jewish Christianity, Christ came to fulfill the law, in Pauline Christianity Christ came to replace the Law with Faith.
5) Catholicism, a third distinct form of Christianity, as well as adding verses to the Epistles, sought to justify itself by forging 1&2 Timothy, Titus, 2 Peter and Acts in an effort to obfuscate the division between Jewish and Pauline Christianity.


In conclusion, be very very careful when making doctrinal decisions that affect your view of God based on ancient writings. The writings are not always authentic, and when they are authentic, they are seldom pristine. Take for yourselves the Divinity of Reason.

 

[Hillsage]

eternal hell fire deters sinners from their ways, and they walk righteously.

Not a whole truth...not for believers or unbelievers. Before coming to Christ I made the conscious decision to go to this eternal hell you believe in, and which I believed in at that time. I decided it was better to be with 'kinder' friends in eternal hell, than with the sadistic God that the hypocritical church had portrayed to me as well as the world. Speaking of which, take a look at 'that church' today and tell me, how's that big 'sin deterring' factor is working out. Hell must not be so hot of a deterrent afterall IMO.

Annihilation is like suicide....it's the easy way out. you have yet to prove why annihilation views are any different than suicidal tendencies.

Dead is dead, be it suicide, murder, old age it matters not. Hope for cancer, if you wish, so you can suffer a little longer but as for me I'm hoping for a 'wake up' call from Jesus. And if you think suicide is so easy, you've apparently have not spent time in psych wards ministering to these tormented souls...I have, and I therefore have a different opinion than you.

lazerus and the rich man are talking about paradise. But when we die we are fast forwarded to judment day each of us individually.

Maybe, but can you back it with scripture. If you can't it's really just your opinion.

But what is more ridiculous is that our souls turn off and wait for judgment day, thats funny to me.

Only ridiculous to you but that just reminds me of the loving mother who upon seeing her precious son in marching band made her own 'ridiculous/funny judgment' by saying; "Oh look...my little Johnny is the only one in step".

the reason why the old testament doesn't speak of these things is because they went to paradise, not heaven. And paradise was emptied at the resurrection when many old testament saints were resurrected and walked around with Christ.

Another unbiblical opinoin you are entitled to have...and we are entitled 'not to have'.

 

[createdtoworship]

Not a whole truth...not for believers or unbelievers. Before coming to Christ I made the conscious decision to go to this eternal hell you believe in, and which I believed in at that time. I decided it was better to be with 'kinder' friends in eternal hell, than with the sadistic God that the hypocritical church had portrayed to me as well as the world. Speaking of which, take a look at 'that church' today and tell me, how's that big 'sin deterring' factor is working out. Hell must not be so hot of a deterrent afterall IMO.

Dead is dead, be it suicide, murder, old age it matters not. Hope for cancer, if you wish, so you can suffer a little longer but as for me I'm hoping for a 'wake up' call from Jesus. And if you think suicide is so easy, you've apparently have not spent time in psych wards ministering to these tormented souls...I have, and I therefore have a different opinion than you.

Maybe, but can you back it with scripture. If you can't it's really just your opinion.

Only ridiculous to you but that just reminds me of the loving mother who upon seeing her precious son in marching band made her own 'ridiculous/funny judgment' by saying; "Oh look...my little Johnny is the only one in step".

Another unbiblical opinoin you are entitled to have...and we are entitled 'not to have'.

my sister was suicidal at points so I know what it's about. But it's an escape and it's the easy way out. Not admitted for believers. as far as hell being a deterrant from sin....it is for the unbelievers to drive them to Christ. The law is a school master to bring us to the Lord when we realize the sinfullness of sin. And the fears of eternal hell. Annihilation is nothing to fear, no school master there, but an escape just like suicide. So you still offer no proof that annihilation is any different than spiritual suicide (the easy way out of hell).

james 5:20 "Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins."

 

[createdtoworship]

Soul isn't impervious. God can destroy both body and soul.

the weight of an empty floppy disk is .8 ounce. But a completely full one is still .8 ounce. Software has no mass, but controls the way the machine operates.

The mass of the floppy disk is .8 ounce, and will remain .8 ounce regardless of whether its individual magnetic particles are charged in a positive or negative manner. It's the pattern of neg (0) and pos (1) polarity of the existing particles already on the disk that make up what we call "software", not whether the disk is empty (which it is not) or full (also, which it is not)

the soul is just the software of the human body...it's information in the neurons

all non-material entities (e.g. information,
consciousness, intelligence and will) are massless and thus
have zero weight. Information is always based on an idea;
it is thus also massless and does not arise from physical
or chemical processes.

a quote from an essay on information
http://creation.com/images/pdfs/tj/j23_2/j23_2_96-102.pdf

time is the fourth dimension (a physical property)

so the soul is outside of time

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tulJnR5siYs

YouTube - ‪Time a Physical property‬‏

but God does and can destroy the soul that he made, we just can't destroy it with any physical laws. Secondly, God may destroy the soul perpetually in hell (which is consistent with an eternal hell)

 

[Hillsage]

my sister was suicidal at points so I know what it's about.

The people I ministered to didn't just have depression and think about it, they had cut themselves or OD-ed.

But it's an escape and it's the easy way out.

Killing oneself is not easy IMO. Talking about it is easy, and the talkers usually never do it. Was your sister admitted to a psych ward, or did she ever have a failed attempt?

Not admitted for believers. as far as hell being a deterrant from sin....it is for the unbelievers to drive them to Christ.

This doesn't make much sense to me. Are you OSAS? Is that the point you're trying to make?

The law is a school master to bring us to the Lord when we realize the sinfullness of sin. And the fears of eternal hell.

The "law" yes but this scripture says nothing about hell, nor is hell even mentioned once in that book. The Galatians verse you're alluding to, says the law's purpose was in setting a standard that no one could live up to, and it's very purpose was so that sin would INCREASE. Now why would God want sin to increase? Did He goof and make hell too big and heaven to small.

ROM 5:20 Law came in, to increase the trespass; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more,

Annihilation is nothing to fear, no school master there, but an escape just like suicide. So you still offer no proof that annihilation is any different than spiritual suicide (the easy way out of hell).

I'm not trying to prove annihilation. I don't believe in annihilation. And the purpose of the schoolmaster wasn't to scare people with hell...it was to lead them to Christ. So God gave the law to increase sin and make sure no one could live up to it...hmmmm. Rom 5 sounds like he's making us dependent upon Him and His increasing grace...not Hell.

james 5:20 "Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins."

The people spoken of in James,that were sinning, were Christians. So what's the point of you quoting it?

JAM 5:19 Brethren, if any ofyou do err from the truth, and one convert him; 20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

And since we're talking about the "brethren's" soul's possibly dying, then according to you they went to hell....since that's what death is. So I guess you aren't OSAS.

 

[createdtoworship]

The people I ministered to didn't just have depression and think about it, they had cut themselves or OD-ed.
Killing oneself is not easy IMO. Talking about it is easy, and the talkers usually never do it. Was your sister admitted to a psych ward, or did she ever have a failed attempt?

This doesn't make much sense to me. Are you OSAS? Is that the point you're trying to make?

The "law" yes but this scripture says nothing about hell, nor is hell even mentioned once in that book. The Galatians verse you're alluding to, says the law's purpose was in setting a standard that no one could live up to, and it's very purpose was so that sin would INCREASE. Now why would God want sin to increase? Did He goof and make hell too big and heaven to small.

ROM 5:20 Law came in, to increase the trespass; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more,

I'm not trying to prove annihilation. I don't believe in annihilation. And the purpose of the schoolmaster wasn't to scare people with hell...it was to lead them to Christ. So God gave the law to increase sin and make sure no one could live up to it...hmmmm. Rom 5 sounds like he's making us dependent upon Him and His increasing grace...not Hell.

The people spoken of in James,that were sinning, were Christians. So what's the point of you quoting it?

JAM 5:19 Brethren, if any ofyou do err from the truth, and one convert him; 20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

And since we're talking about the "brethren's" soul's possibly dying, then according to you they went to hell....since that's what death is. So I guess you aren't OSAS.

she had two failed attempts.

but as far OSAS I believe a believer can be secure in salvation as long as they are attempting to fight sin instead of letting sin reign in their lives.

grace is not grace if there is no eternal hell.

 

[Hillsage]

she had two failed attempts.

I'm sorry to hear that. I hope she is OK now.

but as far OSAS I believe a believer can be secure in salvation as long as they are attempting to fight sin instead of letting sin reign in their lives.

I'm OSAS for a born again spirit, but not for the soul.

grace is not grace if there is no eternal hell.

That's what this debate is all about...and as from the beginning, I disagree. I also suspect we differ in our definition of grace.

 

[Timothew]

grace is not grace if there is no eternal hell.

The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life.

How is it not grace to give someone eternal life who deserves death?

 

[LutheranMafia]

Thoughts;
1) OT scripture does not apply. Temple Judaism had no concept of Heaven or Hell, or any kind of afterlife. They believed that when the lights go out the room goes dark. If OT scripture seems to be talking about an afterlife(or death) you are matrixing it in.

What about 1 Samuel 28:15 where Samuel speaks to Saul from the grave? Clearly Samuel was conscious in an afterlife existence.

2) Pharisee Judaism is not the same as Temple Judaism; It was a hellenized Judaism that incorporated the Greek idea's of an afterlife, and those idea's are recorded in extra-torah scriptures.

That doesn't jive with either 1 Samuel 28 or Genesis 5:24.

And Enoch walked [in habitual fellowship] with God; and he was not, for God took him [home with Him].
Genesis 5:24
​

Also, the repeated references in the Gospels of John the Baptist being the return of Elijah (and the reference in the Gospel of Thomas to the people believing that Jesus is the return of Elisha) makes it clear that the Jewish people believed in reincarnation, as they do to this day. It is hard to fathom reincarnation without an afterlife, that would be illogical.

3) Matthew was based on Mark, with some elements thrown in to counter Paul. Matthew was written in the Antioch region by Jewish Christians. If you remember Galatians(written about 40 years earlier) Paul complained that the Jewish Christians in the Antioch region were still trying to follow the Law. The Authors of Matthew countered by having Jesus say that "he who taught to break the least of these would be the least in heaven".
4)When comparing Pauline Christianity with the Christianity put forth in Matthew, we are talking about two distinctly different belief systems. In Jewish Christianity, Christ came to fulfill the law, in Pauline Christianity Christ came to replace the Law with Faith.
5) Catholicism, a third distinct form of Christianity, as well as adding verses to the Epistles, sought to justify itself by forging 1&2 Timothy, Titus, 2 Peter and Acts in an effort to obfuscate the division between Jewish and Pauline Christianity.

That is very interesting. I was aware that the different Gospels were written to appeal to different groups. Which of the Gospels is Pauline?

In conclusion, be very very careful when making doctrinal decisions that affect your view of God based on ancient writings. The writings are not always authentic, and when they are authentic, they are seldom pristine. Take for yourselves the Divinity of Reason.

What I find interesting is comparing the Gospel of Thomas, which I think is very authentic, to the canonical Gospels.

 

[LutheranMafia]

I'm OSAS for a born again spirit, but not for the soul.

What does that mean, for the spirit but not for the soul? The only sense I can get out of that sentence is that the spirit is OSAS but the soul is not, but I don't think that is what you meant.

 

[LutheranMafia]

I'm just gonna say its bull[bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] to think its more just to torment people forever than to just let them perish of their own accord. As I've asked several times before, how does that serve God in any way shape, form, or fashion and how does it help that person or justly punish that person if they are to be tormented without end?

I don't think it is either a matter of justice or serving God's purpose, it is just a product of the nature of spirit, which is indestructible.

I've acknowledged that hell fire may be possible, as in literally. However, you must prove not that the hell fire burns forever, but that the people in it burn forever. Eternal punishment and eternal destruction I believe are one and the same. What must be proven is eternal burning. It must not be a contradicted theology. Eternal destruction directly butts heads with eternal suffering.

But there are two different parts, soul & spirit, with two different fates for the damned. The soul is destroyed, but the spirit is indestructible. Here is a verse which I posted last week, which refers to these two different parts, one destroyed and the other in eternal torment:

They are clouds without rain, blown along by the wind; autumn trees, without fruit and uprooted—twice dead. They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever.
Jude 1:12-13
​

Twice dead refers to the second death--the death of the soul, but also their spirits wander in blackest darkness for eternity.

And again, why isn't this elaborated on within the Old Testament if this is such a vital part to where the unsaved go? This isn't a promise that God's going to keep eventually, if eternal suffering exists it should have been at least hinted at since the beginning.

Why do you deny that Isaiah 66:24 refers to eternal suffering? What is it that is burning in this passage? Clearly it is not referring to their physical bodies, it must be referring their spirits. Spirit is pure consciousness, you can't have a dead spirit body left behind the way you can have a dead physical body left behind by the spirit. There is nothing to leave behind the spirit body. Being pure consciosuness, if the spirit body is burning then it is consciously suffering.

And then there's the other question, why do we get new bodies if we're with Christ as soon as we die?

I remember you making this objection before with regards to Luke 23:43, and I don't really understand the nature of the objection. 1 Corinthians 15:44 speaks of the resurrection of the dead as being a process of converting physical bodies into spirit bodies. But unless you believe in the Rapture, which is not a part of orthodox Christian beliefs and rejected by the vast majority of Christians, there is no contradiction. You would have to believe in the Rapture for there to be any contradiction here. In the absense of a belief in the Rapture the transformation in 1 Corinthians 15:44 must be one that takes place on Earth (the "new" Earth to be more precise). Thus it has nothing to do with going to a paradise in Heaven. It is instead speaking of time when the Earth will become a spiritual paradise just as Heaven is now.

If we don't go to paradise with Christ or hell as soon as we die, then that means the story of Lazarus and the rich man cannot be taken literally as that's exactly what happens in that story.

How could this be allegory? Allegory to what? If it is not literally true than what is the literal truth for which this is allegory to? There is always a literal truth behind allegory, you can't have allegory in the absense of a literal truth being compared to.

The story of Lazarus and the rich man is clearly before any type of judgement day.

That is correct.

 

[Soulgazer]

The Savior swallowed up death - (of this) you are not reckoned as being ignorant - for he put aside the world which is perishing. He transformed himself into an imperishable Aeon and raised himself up, having swallowed the visible by the invisible, and he gave us the way of our immortality. Then, indeed, as the Apostle said, "We suffered with him, and we arose with him, and we went to heaven with him". Now if we are manifest in this world wearing him, we are that one`s beams, and we are embraced by him until our setting, that is to say, our death in this life. We are drawn to heaven by him, like beams by the sun, not being restrained by anything. This is the spiritual resurrection which swallows up the psychic in the same way as the fleshly.~Treatise on the Resurection

 

[Timothew]

The Savior swallowed up death - (of this) you are not reckoned as being ignorant - for he put aside the world which is perishing. He transformed himself into an imperishable Aeon and raised himself up, having swallowed the visible by the invisible, and he gave us the way of our immortality. Then, indeed, as the Apostle said, "We suffered with him, and we arose with him, and we went to heaven with him". Now if we are manifest in this world wearing him, we are that one`s beams, and we are embraced by him until our setting, that is to say, our death in this life. We are drawn to heaven by him, like beams by the sun, not being restrained by anything. This is the spiritual resurrection which swallows up the psychic in the same way as the fleshly.~Treatise on the Resurection

I just got the entire series of The Tick.

Death. The eternal blink. The capricious dance of Now Ya Stop Movin' Forever. Well contrary to popular belief, death isn't just for dead people. It can happen to anyone. I know, it's news to me too. And it's not just people either, it's all kinds of stuff. Horses, fiddler crabs. Did you know that even a potato... can die?

 

[LutheranMafia]

And it's not just people either, it's all kinds of stuff. Horses, fiddler crabs. Did you know that even a potato... can die?

But what kind of death? There is the first death and there is the second death. Do potatos die the second death?

I'll go ahead and give my opinion, which is that potatos do not die the second death, since they do not have an individuated soul. They have a collective soul. Any individual can die without effecting the collective.

(My opinions on this are evolving as I attempt to answer previously unasked questions for myself. This is why I so value debate with people who disagree with me rather than only conferring with people that agree with me. It prompts one to attempt to answer questions that one would never have otherwise asked [or been asked].)​

 

[LutheranMafia]

The Savior swallowed up death - (of this) you are not reckoned as being ignorant - for he put aside the world which is perishing. He transformed himself into an imperishable Aeon and raised himself up, having swallowed the visible by the invisible, and he gave us the way of our immortality. Then, indeed, as the Apostle said, "We suffered with him, and we arose with him, and we went to heaven with him". Now if we are manifest in this world wearing him, we are that one`s beams, and we are embraced by him until our setting, that is to say, our death in this life. We are drawn to heaven by him, like beams by the sun, not being restrained by anything. This is the spiritual resurrection which swallows up the psychic in the same way as the fleshly.~Treatise on the Resurection

So what about 1 Samuel 28:15? None of this addresses my question.

 

[Timothew]

But what kind of death? There is the first death and there is the second death. Do potatos die the second death?​

I'll go ahead and give my opinion, which is that potatos do not die the second death, since they do not have an individuated soul. They have a collective soul. Any individual can die without effecting the collective.​

Potatos are like the Borg? Resistance is futile.
YouTube - ‪We are the Borg‬‏

 

[Hillsage]

What does that mean, for the spirit but not for the soul? The only sense I can get out of that sentence is that the spirit is OSAS but the soul is not, but I don't think that is what you meant.

You understood correctly. I believe we are triune beings and all three parts have to be saved. I believe that when one first comes to God it is their spirit that is born again or saved. After spirit salvation you being "working out the salvation of the soul with fear and trembling" throughout your life on earth. Body salvation is last of all when we receive our saved, or glorified, bodies.

John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. The spirit is "born of the Spirit"/God and it must be "born again/from above" eg saved.

Once born 'from above' it cannot be unborn or lost...eg OSAS. Some will have their "predestined", "called", "fore ordained to believe" spirit salvation, in this age. Others won't receive that 'call' until their appointed time. Those spirits who disobeyed in the time of Noah received their "gospel" when it was preached to them in prison by Jesus ages later.

I believe in predestination or as the Greek defines it 'predetermination'. That being the case then I have to believe that God will not predestine/predetermine some for annihilation and others for eternal torture. In the "fullness of times" or ages Christ will unite all things (creation) 'in Him'.

Basically, I am a calvinist when it comes to spirit salvation and I am armenianist when it comes to soul salvation. Of all the theological views I've ever looked at this POV just works best for me. It still leaves unanswered questions, but for me personally there are less than with other views.

Be nice to me now.

 

[Hillsage]

So what about 1 Samuel 28:15? None of this addresses my question.

Some people teach that it was not the spirit of Samuel, but a familiar spirit of the devil, since this was a witch who was conjuring up the spirit.

 

[Soulgazer]

So what about 1 Samuel 28:15? None of this addresses my question.

It is my opinion that Paul answered that question:

[SIZE=-1]3:11[/SIZE]For if that which passeth away was with glory, much more that which remaineth is in glory. [SIZE=-1]3:12[/SIZE]Having therefore such a hope, we use great boldness of speech, [SIZE=-1]3:13[/SIZE]and are not as Moses, who put a veil upon his face, that the children of Israel should not look stedfastly on the end of that which was passing away: [SIZE=-1]3:14[/SIZE]but their minds were hardened: for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remaineth, it not being revealed to them that it is done away in Christ.


What is done away? The old covenant(the Torah) and everything that goes with it, and the reading of it invites a veil over our faces.



John was begotten by the World through a woman, Elizabeth; and Christ was begotten by the world through a virgin, Mary. What is (the meaning of) this mystery? John was begotten by means of a womb worn with age, but Christ passed through a virgin's womb. When she had conceived, she gave birth to the Savior. Furthermore, she was found to be a virgin again. Why, then do you (pl.) err and not seek after these mysteries, which were prefigured for our sake? ~Testimony of Truth

I told you all of that, just so you could understand what I meant when I told you this:

"Everything that came from the perishable will perish, since it came from the perishable. But whatever came from imperishableness does not perish but becomes imperishable. So, many men went astray because they had not known this difference and they died." (the permanent death) ~ Sophia of Jesus

Every culture has had experience with ghosts or shades. They are an unexplained reality. Nobody knows what they are, though some claim to. If you examine their claims carefully, it is just belief or speculation.
However, I believe that what comes from the perishable perishes--- Matter, sin, desire, etc. What is left is that which comes from God, and that is why we cultivate it. Wars are fought over dirt. Spirits are beyond such mundane concerns.