Let's Talk About Hell (2)

[Timothew]

You believe that the billions of people from other religions will be annihilated simply because they don't believe in Jesus. I'm not going to ask you since you can't seem to answer a straight forward question. I'll simply state it as a fact, what you have said means that you believe billions will be resurrected to annihilation.

This is not the slightest bit better than believing in eternal torment. I believe in eternal torment for a small few who are truly psychopathic while you believe in a henious annihilation of billions of people. There is a certain irony here. Suddenly I am turned from being frustrated with Hilsage's tendency to start rattling of scripture in an out of context manner, to feeling very simpathetic with Hilsage and sorry I said what I said to him in the face of the Hitlerian belief that you hold to. Lord H and Hilsage rile against the notion of eternal torment for billions (as they have stated) and I agree with this, although I think that the likes of Hitler will undergo eternal torment. But now I find that you believe all those who do not believe in Jesus will be annihilated, and I must say, that as rude as I was with Hilsage, I am much more disgusted with this point of view that you have put forward, as exmplified by my windbag response as opposed to a my usual curt rebuttal.

Hilsage, I deeply apologize about what I said to you. The truth is dawning on me that I am much closer to your point of view than to Timothew's.

You are mischaracterizing my position.

Because of sin people are dying without Christ. He is willing to rescue everyone, however the wages of sin is death. Since the result of sin is death, repentance and forgiveness of sin is necessary. I am sickened that you equate God with Hitler. It seems to me that Sin is more like Hitler, killing millions. And God is more like Schindler, rescuing as many as he can reach from death.

I know that you are disgusted with what I am saying, but have I said anything that is not written in the bible? The wages of sin is death, you can look it up, Romans 6:23. God so loved the world that He gave his only Son that whoever believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life. John 3:16. The Lake of Fire is the second Death. Rev 20:14.

Honestly, it is not me you are disgusted with but the bible.
I didn't answer your question about annihilation because of the word annihilation, but I will answer your question. Do I believe that many people will die because they are separated from Christ? Yes, I believe that. I believe that many people will be resurrected only to discover that they have separated themselves from the only source of life, Jesus Christ.
But there is time while a person is alive, they can put their faith in Jesus Christ now and receive eternal life in the resurrection. You are disgusted by this, but to me it's good news.

 

[Timothew]

I've seen it happen before.

A: The wages of sin is death.
B: That's annihilationism.
A. No, that's death.
B. Death means something else, floating to heaven or burning in hell, you are promoting annihilationism.
A. Death means dying, not being alive.
B. That's Annihilationism.
A. OK! OK! They are annihilated then, since you insist.
B. Aha! Nothing is really ever annihilated! The Atoms still exist!
A. sigh

 

[Soulgazer]

I've seen it happen before.

A: The wages of sin is death.
B: That's annihilationism.
A. No, that's death.
B. Death means something else, floating to heaven or burning in hell, you are promoting annihilationism.
A. Death means dying, not being alive.
B. That's Annihilationism.
A. OK! OK! They are annihilated then, since you insist.
B. Aha! Nothing is really ever annihilated! The Atoms still exist!
A. sigh

In the late forties, a number of Island people were discovered in the South seas, as we expanded our military presence. A number of these people had made Idols to new "Gods" that bore remarkable resemblance to C47 transport aircraft. They clung to their gods even after landing strips were built and they had the opportunity to see genuine C47's. They were convinced that evil spirits were trying to deceive them away from their "gods".

In a similar vein, Paul wrote that those Jewish Christians who still insisted on reading Moses were merely pulling a veil over their own eye's, unwilling to let go of the old, even in the face of the new. Apparently, and we have to surmise because of just hearing one side of the discussion, these Jewish Christians were just as equally convinced that Paul had a deceiving spirit.

Reason and argument, historical data and scholarly research will never win against religious bias. "Those fossils were created when the earth was created, just to fool the unbeliever! ".

 

[Hillsage]

How do you guys interpret this?
2 Thessalonians 1
This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction/olethros and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might 10 on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.

First notice that Jesus is revealed in blazing fire for punishment. This punishment is equal to the judgment/krisis that we as obedient saints undergo in 'this age' to be worthy of the kingdom according to verse 5. Our 'blazing fire' encounter with God is the purgative fire of the Holy Spirit IMO. For those who have been baptized with "the holy spirit and fire" anyway.

Now wait a minute, here it says they'll be punished with everlasting destruction/olethros, but in Matthew it says they'll be sent to eternal punishment. Could it be they're one and the same?

Reread the article from tentmaker. The word eternal/everlasting is not accurate. Secondly look at some other verses where the word for olethros/destruction is used...One even says 'destruction/olethros precedes salvation'. And Satan's purpose is to help accomplish that end.

1CO 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction/olethros of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

I've always said we ARE spirits made in the image of God who IS SPIRIT. All the body is, is the earthly tent "WE" live in according to Paul. So what if it is destroyed along with the soul. All the soul does is determine spiritual growth/maturity which determines what kind of "glorified body" the Father will give to each.

As much as I'd like to believe in the everyone is saved eventually theology, I just don't see how it can fit in with Paul being so up front about it.

Well don't give up, just follow the heart of God along with those who see things from that perspective to help untwist those who wrote bibles with the opposite perspective. "Knowledge shall increase in the last days" but only for those who have a "love for the truth" and not just a love of their doctrine.

Below is another verse with this word translated as destruction. Notice the result of this "destruction/olethros"...a new creation...new birth.

1 Thessalonians 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail/olethros upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

That's how I interpret your question above.

 

[LutheranMafia]

You know me, just a stickler for the truth the WHOLE truth...and not just a half truth like you are presenting. So once again I ask for another verse proving 'ONE' more of these "some people who don't die and go to heaven" that you mentioned. PLEASE.

Elijah.

And Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.
2 Kings 2:11
​

HE DIED LM...HE DIED. That was my real point, not how many go. No hypocrisy on my part ALL will eventually. No one has gone without dying. Especially in the OT before Jesus even made heaven/life available...since ALL have sinned...including Enoch.

Hebrews 11:5 explicitly said that Enoch never died and that he was "translated" into Heaven. As to all the people that died in Hebrews 11:13, that is referring to the people mentioned in Hebrews 11:12. It is obviously not referring to Hebrews 11:5 because that states explicitly that Enoch did not die.

I'm not so sure, but the apology was nice...even though short lived...kind of a "olive branch/bed fellow quickie"...so to speak. It was good to see you try though.

Well, I apologize for loosing my temper again after giving the olive branch. I really do think that we are closer to the same opinion than you and Timothew. Timothew believes in annihilation for billions of people while I believe in eternal torment for what is maybe 1% of society that is truly psychopathic. That would be millions at most, possibly even less, rather than billions.

 

[LutheranMafia]

I am sickened that you equate God with Hitler.

I am arguing that God is not like that, I do not equate the true God with Hitler, I equate your distortion of God to Hitler.

I know that you are disgusted with what I am saying, but have I said anything that is not written in the bible?

You focus on some verses and ignore others. You completely ignore the following verses:

And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven...
Matthew 12:32

Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God.
1 John 4:7
​

Honestly, it is not me you are disgusted with but the bible.

No, it is your misinterpretation of the Bible, claiming that it damns billions of people to annihilation, including all small children who die while they are still too young to understand religion.

 

[LutheranMafia]

Here's an interesting question though regarding Luke 23:43. If we're to be with Jesus in paradise literally right after death if we followed him, then why does he promise to come back for us? There's the whole physical body argument, but if we're with Jesus already......why do we need a body? I mean if we're conscious with Jesus right then and there after death, it just doesn't make too much sense to me. I believe in Hebrews on of the disciples talks about how David was still laying with his fathers too.

That is an interesting point. I'll have to give it some thought before I reply.

Death is like a sleep anyways, Jesus himself referred to death as sleep. We won't be aware of it.

We dream while sleeping. It is not a state of total unconsciousness. It is a different sort of consciousness. I think the same is true of death.

 

[Lord Herdsetk]

We dream while sleeping. It is not a state of total unconsciousness. It is a different sort of consciousness. I think the same is true of death.

I don't think Jesus meant it literally to the T. When the disciples asked how Lazarus can be merely sleeping when he had been dead for three days, Jesus merely said, "He's dead."

John 11

1 Now a man named Lazarus was sick. He was from Bethany, the village of Mary and her sister Martha. 2 (This Mary, whose brother Lazarus now lay sick, was the same one who poured perfume on the Lord and wiped his feet with her hair.) 3 So the sisters sent word to Jesus, “Lord, the one you love is sick.”
4 When he heard this, Jesus said, “This sickness will not end in death. No, it is for God’s glory so that God’s Son may be glorified through it.” 5 Now Jesus loved Martha and her sister and Lazarus. 6 So when he heard that Lazarus was sick, he stayed where he was two more days, 7 and then he said to his disciples, “Let us go back to Judea.”

8 “But Rabbi,” they said, “a short while ago the Jews there tried to stone you, and yet you are going back?”

9 Jesus answered, “Are there not twelve hours of daylight? Anyone who walks in the daytime will not stumble, for they see by this world’s light. 10 It is when a person walks at night that they stumble, for they have no light.”

11 After he had said this, he went on to tell them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I am going there to wake him up.”

12 His disciples replied, “Lord, if he sleeps, he will get better.” 13 Jesus had been speaking of his death, but his disciples thought he meant natural sleep.

14 So then he told them plainly, “Lazarus is dead, 15 and for your sake I am glad I was not there, so that you may believe. But let us go to him.”

16 Then Thomas (also known as Didymus[a]) said to the rest of the disciples, “Let us also go, that we may die with him.”

Its quite explicit here. They thought Jesus was talking about natural sleep, Jesus was referring to the fact Lazarus was gone from this world. Jesus brought Lazarus back from the dead.

Also Gradyll, maybe this will help you understand why I'm so skeptical about the garden of eden only being a spiritual death instead of both a physical and spiritual death.

Look at John 11: 3-4

3 So the sisters sent word to Jesus, “Lord, the one you love is sick.”
4 When he heard this, Jesus said, “This sickness will not end in death. No, it is for God’s glory so that God’s Son may be glorified through it.”

Focus in on verse 4. "This sickness will not end in death." Lazarus's sickness DID result in death, but Jesus was able to revive him from being dead. This is part of that prophetic speaking I was talking about earlier. In a matter of speaking, though physical death did happen to Lazarus because of this sickness, it was not finale for him. Jesus was able to bring him back from that sickness's wrath.

If you were to think of this story as a picture, it would be the negative image of God's curse on man to die. When man sinned against God, he was doomed to die, just not right away. When Lazarus became sick, Jesus said his sickness would not end in death. It did though, right away. However Jesus brought Lazarus back, and that sickness did not really end in death. Am I making sense here?

 

[Hillsage]

Elijah.

And Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.
2 Kings 2:11​

I used to use that one too...till I found out that Elijah's translation into heaven was no different than that of Phillip when he was translated from the Eunuch.

30 years after 2Kings 2:11 was written guess what scripture says happened?

2CH 21:12 And a letter came to him from Elijah the prophet,
My theology changes with the introduction of new truth like the one above. That's why my theology on Enoch and Elijah 'recently' changed...and, unfortunately, that's why I may appear to have "rocks in my head" too.
​

Hebrews 11:5 explicitly said that Enoch never died and that he was "translated" into Heaven. As to all the people that died in Hebrews 11:13, that is referring to the people mentioned in Hebrews 11:12. It is obviously not referring to Hebrews 11:5 because that states explicitly that Enoch did not die.

I'm going to stick with my view since I can't make the same judgment as you on 11:13.

Well, I apologize for loosing my temper again after giving the olive branch.

I accept your apology and I happily forgive also.

really do think that we are closer to the same opinion than you and Timothew. Timothew believes in annihilation for billions of people while I believe in eternal torment for what is maybe 1% of society that is truly psychopathic. That would be millions at most, possibly even less, rather than billions.

But these things we disagree on are non essentials IMO. We need to hang onto the closeness of being brothers in Christ harder than we cling to our doctrinal differences. And that is where I have felt more 'closeness' to Timothew or Lord H and Soulgazer. It embarrasses me to think back on my/all posts and see the lack of love for the brethren. Those verbal attacks of mine simply point out my own immaturity IMO. At least, as far as I'm concerned, we are, mostly, all brethren here. Disagreements will come, but divisions and visciousness like I often encounter here are the greater wrong IMO.

 

[LutheranMafia]

I used to use that one too...till I found out that Elijah's translation into heaven was no different than that of Phillip when he was translated from the Eunuch.

30 years after 2Kings 2:11 was written guess what scripture says happened?

2CH 21:12 And a letter came to him from Elijah the prophet,
My theology changes with the introduction of new truth like the one above. That's why my theology on Enoch and Elijah 'recently' changed...

Interesting, I've never heard of this before, although I was aware of the fact that Chronicles overlapped Kings. I found a web page specifically on this issue: Did Elijah send a letter to King Jehoram after his ascension into heaven? - 2 Chronicles 21:12 | Jehovah's Witness Scripture Proof Texts Answered It claims that there were two Jehoram, one was king of Judah and the other king of Isreal and that Kings and Chronicles are actually referring to two different kings.

I accept your apology and I happily forgive also.

But these things we disagree on are non essentials IMO. We need to hang onto the closeness of being brothers in Christ harder than we cling to our doctrinal differences. And that is where I have felt more 'closeness' to Timothew or Lord H and Soulgazer. It embarrasses me to think back on my/all posts and see the lack of love for the brethren. Those verbal attacks of mine simply point out my own immaturity IMO. At least, as far as I'm concerned, we are, mostly, all brethren here. Disagreements will come, but divisions and visciousness like I often encounter here are the greater wrong IMO.

I like debating Timothew because I learn a lot myself from the debates in a way that I would never learn if I were just talking to someone that agrees with me. I'm starting to learn from my debates with you as well, so that tempers my occasional bursts of bad temper. I agree with you completely that it is brotherhood that we should focus on instead of our minor differences in doctrine.

 

[Hillsage]

I don't think Jesus meant it literally to the T. When the disciples asked how Lazarus can be merely sleeping when he had been dead for three days, Jesus merely said, "He's dead."

Jesus understood the difference between spirit, soul and body in this departure/sleep/decay story concerning death. The reason he waited until the fourth day (vs17) was because the Jews believed that a human spirit would 'hang around' for 3 days after someone died, but then it would leave for good. Jesus was making a declaration of His authority and Him being "the resurrection and the life", by waiting until the 4th day before raising him.

Its quite explicit here. They thought Jesus was talking about natural sleep, Jesus was referring to the fact Lazarus was gone from this world. Jesus brought Lazarus back from the dead.

Jesus' referral to sleep was in direct relation to the state of Lazarus' soul and the lesson he would subsequently teach that resurrection life/IMMORTALITY was available to those who "live and believe shall never die".

Also Gradyll, maybe this will help you understand why I'm so skeptical about the garden of eden only being a spiritual death instead of both a physical and spiritual death.

I think Jesus was talking spirit here, because scripture says the spirit returns to God from whence it came, but it doesn't say when...but then Paul does say 'to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord' (who sits at the right hand of the Father).

I would have to lean toward the thief on the cross being a spirit declaration of Jesus, if one interprets that verse as it is traditionally translated.

But some say, in most translations, the comma added by man after "you" should be behind "today".

It would then read; "Truly, I say to you today, you will be (sometime in the future) with me in Paradise."

Just my thoughts.

 

[Hillsage]

It claims that there were two Jehoram, one was king of Judah and the other king of Isreal and that Kings and Chronicles are actually referring to two different kings.

But for our purposes it isn't whether or not there were two different Kings, but that it was Elijah.

I agree with you completely that it is brotherhood that we should focus on instead of our minor differences in doctrine.

Oh, I never said I thought our differences were "minor", because some of them are huge IMO.

 

[Timothew]

I am arguing that God is not like that, I do not equate the true God with Hitler, I equate your distortion of God to Hitler.

Well then you didn't read my reply. The wages of SIN is death, God doesn't cause death. God rescues people from death. How is that like Hitler again?

You focus on some verses and ignore others. You completely ignore the following verses:

And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven...
Matthew 12:32
​

How is it relevant to the discussion?

Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God.
1 John 4:7

This says the lost are in eternal torment??? How?

No, it is your misinterpretation of the Bible, claiming that it damns billions of people to annihilation, including all small children who die while they are still too young to understand religion.

When did I say this? I never said this. This attempt is pathetic. Why are you doing this?

Go read the rules section of CF. Here's a portion:
Flaming and Harassment
● Do not insult, belittle, mock, goad, personally attack, threaten, harass, or use derogatory nicknames in reference to other members or groups of members. Address the context of the post, not the poster.

● Do not state or imply that another member or group of members who have identified themselves as Christian are not Christian.

● Do not make another member's experience on this site miserable. This includes, making false accusations or persistently attacking them in the open forums.

This is getting out of hand.

 

[LutheranMafia]

Well then you didn't read my reply. The wages of SIN is death, God doesn't cause death. God rescues people from death. How is that like Hitler again?

If billions are cast to annihilation for what I and others here think are trivial reasons, that is Hitlerian. You have not denied it when I questioned if your interpretation is that billions will be annihilated in your opinion.

How is it relevant to the discussion?

Because Luke 12:10 speaks to what belief really means. You referred to "belief" as essential to salvation, and I do not deny this, but I question what the nature of that belief is. Luke 12:10 says that it is not the kind of belief that Fundamentalists would refer to. You have said nothing in all the time I have known you about belief, so now that you bring it up I can only guess at what your notion of belief is. Luke 12:10 speaks directly to this issue.

This says the lost are in eternal torment??? How?

Once again my reference here (to 1 John 4:7) is with regards to the nature of true belief. You've brought up the subject of belief without any clarification of what you mean by belief. It is a critical issue which is usually dominated by one interpretation, though I think that another is possible. I brought this up because it speaks to what I think the true nature of belief is.

When did I say this? I never said this. This attempt is pathetic. Why are you doing this?

You said those who don't believe are damned to annihilation. What am I, a dentist? I've asked you openly what your opinion is and you play your usual games of evasion. I am taking your words at their face value. I am only making an attempt to honestly understand you. If what you mean by belief is not what most Christians' mean by belief then please explain your notion of belief, as I have mine.

Go read the rules section of CF. Here's a portion:
Flaming and Harassment
● Do not insult, belittle, mock, goad, personally attack, threaten, harass, or use derogatory nicknames in reference to other members or groups of members. Address the context of the post, not the poster.

● Do not state or imply that another member or group of members who have identified themselves as Christian are not Christian.

● Do not make another member's experience on this site miserable. This includes, making false accusations or persistently attacking them in the open forums.

This is getting out of hand.

If your notion of belief is different from the standard Christian notion of belief than you should plainly state it. You have very thin skin. While I have engaged in flames here, they have been exclusively at Hilsage, and yet he is completely unphased. You on the other hand have gotten far more respect from me and yet you claim you are being flamed. I think the main reason is that I hammer away at your fascinating delusions with endless respect. You are a smart guy. Hilsage can be a little dense sometimes but I am discovering a lesson that I should have already known which is that having a high IQ is no guarantee of essential truth. I must say that Hilsage has shamed me with his love and compassion despite my ill tempor with him, while you have not impressed me at all with your thin skin despite the fact that I have treated you far better than I have treated him. Grow up. Man up. You really are very puerile.

 

[LutheranMafia]

But for our purposes it isn't whether or not there were two different Kings, but that it was Elijah.

If they are two different kings then that effects the relative time line. If the King of Judah reigned two years before the King of Isreal then the letter in Chronicles occured before Elijah's ascention. (Read the link I provided in this regard.)

I think it is interesting that Jehovah's Witnesses' are the main ones that hark on this. You aren't JW are you?

 

[Timothew]

You said those who don't believe are damned to annihilation. What am I, a dentist? I've asked you openly what your opinion is and you play your usual games of evasion.

Show me where I said this.

 

[Timothew]

LutheranMafia, Stop Trolling. I haven't said anything to warrant "grow up", "man up".

You know it too. You resort to name calling like a six-year-old.

 

[Timothew]

Most people who use ad hominem arguments do so because they know that the facts don't agree with them. When you resort to ad hominem tactics, it proves that you have lost the debate.

 

[LutheranMafia]

Originally Posted by LutheranMafia http://www.christianforums.com/t7533250-90/#post57950533
You said those who don't believe are damned to annihilation. What am I, a dentist? I've asked you openly what your opinion is and you play your usual games of evasion.
​

Show me where I said this.

Obviously I do have to be dentist and try to drill the answers to honest questions out of you.

Obviously you are committed to a worldview that includes eternal torment in hell for non-believers.

You believe that all non-believers will be annihilated?
​

I won't answer this unless you rephrase the question.

You avoid the question and refuse to speak plainly about what you believe, always playing childish word games about how to label or not label your beliefs. I'm really sick of it. I don't give a damn what you think anymore. If you can't stand up like a man for what you believe in then what difference does it make what you believe in?

 

[LutheranMafia]

Most people who use ad hominem arguments do so because they know that the facts don't agree with them. When you resort to ad hominem tactics, it proves that you have lost the debate.

Well who knows whether or not the facts agree with what you think because no one can possibly guess at what you believe in, you are so evasive about it.

Do you believe that billions of non-Christians are damned or don't you? That is a simple enough question asked a dozen times already and still you play stupid games of evasion. At this point, I don't care what your answer is, your opinion is rendered completely irrelevant if you can't express it.