Let's Talk About Hell (2)

[LutheranMafia]

Option 2 is those who aren't saved simply perish. Obviously, mileage will vary on who is saved on this forum.

Ecclesiastes 3:21 seems to be more of a question of who goes where than a definitive answer. Its Solomon pondering about this. What makes humans so different from animals, we all die and return to dust. All have the same breath. Who is to say that humans go to be with God but animals don't? That's what this chapter seems to be saying. Its asking questions.

But it is clear that the othrodox religious understanding of the time was that human spirits went to Heaven while animal spirits went down. Yes, he is saying, 'who knows this for certain with their own senses', but he wasn't really questioning the validity of the orthodox understanding. He was saying to focus on the tasks at hand rather than spending too much time on lofty questions like we are here. But obviously none of us here are taking this too much to heart!

 

[LutheranMafia]

Option 2 is those who aren't saved simply perish.

What about Jude 1 that I quoted the other day?

Woe to them! They have taken the way of Cain; they have rushed for profit into Balaam’s error; they have been destroyed in Korah’s rebellion. These people are blemishes at your love feasts, eating with you without the slightest qualm—shepherds who feed only themselves. They are clouds without rain, blown along by the wind; autumn trees, without fruit and uprooted—twice dead. They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever.
Jude 1:11-13
​

The Outer Darkness is also mentioned 3 times in Matthew, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth (wow, there is a lot more weeping and gnashing of teeth than I realized! Matthew 8:12, Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50, Matthew 22:13, Matthew 24:51, Matthew 25:30
and Luke 13:28). I noticed that in 3 of these weeping and gnashing is associated with the Outer Darkness and in two it is associated with a blazing furnace. I remember you previously stating that eternal fire and eternal darkness are a paradox, but I don't think so. It is just a spiritual reality that is hard to capture in a single material image. The laws of physical in the spiritual universe are different from the laws of physics in the spiritual universe.

 

[Timothew]

What about Jude 1 that I quoted the other day?

Woe to them! They have taken the way of Cain; they have rushed for profit into Balaam’s error; they have been destroyed in Korah’s rebellion. These people are blemishes at your love feasts, eating with you without the slightest qualm—shepherds who feed only themselves. They are clouds without rain, blown along by the wind; autumn trees, without fruit and uprooted—twice dead. They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever.
Jude 1:11-13
​

Did you notice how this scripture passage actually says they have been destroyed and they are twice dead? Well, this is what I've been saying all along.

 

[Hillsage]

Both. I understand. I do not expect you to believe it, only respect that I believe it, and appreciate that I have reasons that are considered valid in my denomination.

I 'think' I do pretty good on that overall. Though it is probably with a bit less patience when it comes to those things that I once held tightly to, but no longer do.

I have read your writings with interest, because you have apparently been having an unfolding of gnosis, as has Tim.

The last year has been more of an 'unraveling' than an "unfolding" IMO. More and more, doctrine seems increasingly futile and character seems more important. Loving the unlovely (but very religious) brethren is much harder than finding a 'group' who will agree with you.

I cannot interfere, as that is antithetical to what we follow, but I do understand the struggle up the ladder; I can answer a direct question, but all in all I have to bite my tongue as you wear the Rubie Slippers and try to discover what they are for.

The 'well read' atheist attorney that I ride bicycles with has often commented on my Gnostic beliefs. Beliefs which came not from studying Gnosticism, but simply being willing to be led of the Spirit. I can't imagine any reason for the 'antithetical' bent. Sounds too much like the Mason's to me.

 

[LutheranMafia]

Did you notice how this scripture passage actually says they have been destroyed and they are twice dead? Well, this is what I've been saying all along.

That is correct, there is a physical death and a soul death (2nd death), but there is no spirit death. The spirit of the unrepentant sinner (a human with a feral animal spirit) is subject to eternal torment.

All others, no matter how sinful, can hope for salvation in the age to come.

 

[Timothew]

That is correct, there is a physical death and a soul death (2nd death), but there is no spirit death. The spirit of the unrepentant sinner (a human with a feral animal spirit) is subject to eternal torment.

I had to re-read that a couple of times.

Destroyed=1st death, physical death.
Uprooted=2nd death, soul death.
Wandering Stars in the Darkness=Spirits with no death possible.

 

[Hillsage]

Also, when it comes to Sheol it is always souls that go there, the word spirit (ruach) is never mentioned in conjunction with Sheol.

Not in the OT, but what about the spirits that were in PRISON for not believing in the days of Noah which was BEFORE the OT? It doesn't say what the prison is, but I assume it wasn't heaven or paradise.

For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow;

Hebrews 4:12
​

Dividing soul and spirit is compared to dividing joint and marrow. They are close together from our earthly perspective and hard to differentiate.

I think that the joints and marrow are 'more' representative of parts of the body and not for comparative purposes of separating the soul from spirit, as you did. This point seems to also be confirmed in;

1TH 5:23 May the God of peace himself sanctify you wholly; and may your spirit and soul and body (joints/marrow) be kept sound and blameless

That is correct, there is a physical death and a soul death (2nd death), but there is no spirit death.

Hmmm, that's a new one...I like it. But I'll have to stew on it for a while for sure. Any particular reason for saying the physical is first?

 

[Soulgazer]

I can't imagine any reason for the 'antithetical' bent. Sounds too much like the Mason's to me.

It's simple. A lot of bad things can happen if I just open up. You might take a stance against what I have to say, and simply dig in your heals. Just as bad, you might choose to believe me, and lose the desire to see for yourself. "Gnosis" is "knowing". The only way to know is to experience; you can read about riding bicycles for years, even decades, but you're not really a cyclist until you climb on one and ride.
There are a lot of things that you personally "know". I have gathered that from what you write. Just keep going, and you will get there.
"Gnosis" is sometimes looked on as a destructive process, as it overturns a lot of falsehoods that we cling to very tightly.

 

[Lord Herdsetk]

That is correct, there is a physical death and a soul death (2nd death), but there is no spirit death. The spirit of the unrepentant sinner (a human with a feral animal spirit) is subject to eternal torment.

All others, no matter how sinful, can hope for salvation in the age to come.

Before I start commenting on Jude or Matthew, I have to ask this.

What is spirit again? The body is pretty obvious, its our physical being. The soul seems to be controversial as well as the spirit. What is what?

I always thought the soul was our emotions, thoughts, the essence of what makes you 'you' instead of some other person. The spirit seems to be the breath of life and perhaps the will of a living being.

I guess a better way to put it is "Is spirit a part of you, or is it you? Does it help define who you are, or is it a source of who you are? If you were to somehow rip out my spirit, what would I be? Is it something useful like my hand, that I can live without if its removed, or is it something vital like my blood, in which I can't do without?"

I'll go back and look at what you guys read.

Assuming I have a good grasp of body, soul, and spirit, then my conclusion is this:

A body without a soul or spirit is merely an empty shell. It has no 'software' as gradyll termed it to have it running, and no electricity to power it up.

A soul without a body or spirit is merely an OS. It has no hardware to operate on, and it has no electricity. However, just because it has no electricity doesn't mean that its broken or damaged. If you were to find some hardware to put the software on and then run electricity through the hardware, the OS would work just fine.

A spirit without a body or soul is merely electricity. It has no computer to run nor does it have any OS to power up. It is power without a purpose.

If I have this right, Gradyll was on to something there, though I still disagree with him on eternal torment.

Basically, it would make sense for the spirit not to be destroyed as it is God given power for a person to live. It strengthens you but can also be crushed or severely limited. Do I have this right?

 

[createdtoworship]

Ah, excellent verse. So there are two verses in the Bible that speak of soul death (along with Matthew 10:28), but none that speak of spirit death.

I believe this is proof that the spirit is indestructible and that the soul and the spirit have a divergent fate for the damned.

I believe the death here to be condemned to eternal hell, not a real death, but a death that is ongoing in the lake of fire.

 

[createdtoworship]

The Threefold Nature Of Man

The outer circle stands for the "body" of man, the middle for the "soul" and the inner for the spirit, or what Paul calls the "Carnal" (1Cor. 3:1-3) ; the "Natural" (1Cor. 2:14) ; and the "Spiritual" (1Cor. 3:1) ; parts of man.

In the outer circle the "body" is shown as touching the Material world through the five senses of "sight, " "smell, " "hearing, " "taste" and "touch." The soul uses the "Five Senses" of the body as its agents in the exploration of the phenomena of matter and historical research, and for its self expression and communion with the outside world. The "Gates" to the soul are "imagination, " "conscience, " "memory, " "reason" and the "affections." The "Gate of Imagination" of the soul corresponds to the "Gate of Sight" of the body, being the "eye" by which the soul sees. The "Gate of Conscience" corresponds to the "Gate of Smell, " by which the soul detects the presence of good and evil.

The "Gate of Memory" corresponds to the "Gate of Hearing, " by which the soul recalls what it heard. The "Gate of Reason" corresponds to the "Gate of Taste, " permitting the soul to compare facts as the taste compares foods. The "Gate of the Affections" corresponds to the "Gate of Touch, " being the hand by which the soul feels the person of the one it loves.

The Spirit receives impressions of outward and material things through the soul and body. The "Sense Faculties" of the spirit are the "Spiritual faculties" of "Faith...... Hope, " "Reverence, " "Prayer, " and "Worship." In his unfallen state the "spirit" of man was illuminated from Heaven, but when the human race fell in Adam, sin closed the window of the spirit, and pulled down the curtain, and the "chamber of the spirit" became a Death Chamber, and remains so in every unregenerate heart, until the "Life" and "Light" giving power of the Holy Spirit floods that chamber with the "Life" and "Light" giving power of the NEW LIFE IN CHRIST JESUS. We see then why the "natural" man cannot understand spiritual things. He cannot understand them until his spiritual nature has been renewed.

But the spirit of the Natural man is not only darkened, his "Will" stands as a "guard" at the door, and prevents the entrance of the Holy Spirit, and it is not until the "Will" surrenders through the power of the "Sword of the Spirit, " the ... Word of God, " that the Holy Spirit can enter and take up his abode in the "spirit" of man.

The battlefield of "Good" and "Evil" is in the "soul" of man. It is not enough that the Holy Spirit should take up His residence in the "spirit" of a man, He must have access to the "soul" and "body, " as shown on the Diagram. Not until then can a man become "Sanctified" for "Holiness" is conditioned on a "Spirit Filled" spirit, soul and body. A healthy soul and spirit need a healthy body, and if the body is given over to carnality and the lusts of the flesh, even to fasting that weakens it, the soul and spirit suffer, and the whole man becomes spiritually sick.

Let us now trace the life of the soul and spirit after they have left the body. In the story of the "Rich Man and Lazarus, " we have a description of the "Underworld." We find that it is made up of two compartments, "Paradise" and "Hell, " with an "Impassable Gulf" between. At the bottom of the Gulf is the "Bottomless Pit" or "Abyss." This is a place of temporary confinement for "Evil Spirits" (Demons). It has a King-"Apollyon, " but is kept locked by God, who commissions an angel to open it when He so desires. Rev. 9:1-3; Rev. 17:8; Rev. 20:1-3. Study in this connection the charts on "The Spirit World" and "The Resurrections and the judgments."

Before the resurrection of Christ the soul and spirit of the righteous dead went to the "Paradise" compartment of the Underworld. There Christ met the "Penitent Thief" after His death on the Cross. On the day of His Resurrection Christ's soul and spirit returned from the Underworld, but He did not return alone, He brought back with Him all the occupants of the Paradise section and locked it up, and now He now has the "Keys of Death and Hades." Rev. 1:18 R. V. Here "Death" stands for the "grave" and "Hades" for the Underworld. Some of those who came back from the Underworld with Christ got their "bodies, " and rose and ascended with Him as the "First-Fruits" of the resurrection "from among the dead." Matt. 27:52, Matt. 27:53. The rest were taken up to the "Third Heaven, " where Paul was caught up, 2Cor. 12:1-3. Paul called it Paradise. There all the Righteous dead that have died since Christ's resurrection go, that they may be "With the LORD." Phil. 1:23. 2Cor. 5:8.

There the souls of the Righteous dead shall remain until the time comes for the resurrection of their bodies, then when Christ comes back to meet His Church in the Air, He will bring back the souls of the Righteous dead from the Paradise of the "Third Heaven, " for we are told that He will bring them who "Sleep in Jesus" WITH Him (1Thes. 4:14), and they shall continue on to the earth and get their "bodies" from the grave, and then ascend again with the "Translated Saints" to meet Christ IN THE AIR.

So far as we know the souls of the "Wicked Dead" are still in the "Hell Compartment" of the Underworld, and will remain there until the Second Resurrection, when they will return to the earth and get their bodies, and then go to the "Great White Throne" judgment. After judgment they will be sentenced to the "Second Death, " which means that they shall die again, in the sense of losing their bodies again, and as "disembodied spirits" be cast into the "Lake of Fire, " (Gehenna, the "Final Hell"), to suffer in flames forever. As soul and spirit are impervious to flames, this explains how the wicked, after being disembodied again by the "Second Death, " can exist forever in literal fire.

When the earth is "Renovated by Fire, " Satan and all the "Evil Powers" of the Heavenlies will be imprisoned, and the heavens will be "cleansed" of all evil and rebellious spirits. In the New Heavens and Earth man will be restored to the condition Adam was in before the Fall, and the "veil" between the Natural and Spirit Worlds will be removed.

here is an article on spirit, soul and body...

Man A Trinity (Spirit, Soul, Body) | Bible.org - Worlds Largest Bible Study Site

 

[Lord Herdsetk]

Soul isn't impervious. God can destroy both body and soul.

 

[LutheranMafia]

Not in the OT, but what about the spirits that were in PRISON for not believing in the days of Noah which was BEFORE the OT? It doesn't say what the prison is, but I assume it wasn't heaven or paradise.

Well, Sheol isn't necessarily a bad place, twice in the OT there is a reference to people going 'down to Sheol in peace' (1 Kings 2:6, Job 21:13). So even if spirits did go to Sheol it wouldn't necessarily be a prison. As to the prison of the spirit, I think the Outer Darknes is a better candidate.

I think that the joints and marrow are 'more' representative of parts of the body and not for comparative purposes of separating the soul from spirit, as you did. This point seems to also be confirmed in;

1TH 5:23 May the God of peace himself sanctify you wholly; and may your spirit and soul and body (joints/marrow) be kept sound and blameless

Thessalonians doesn't speak of joint and marrow. I think the point of the verse in Hebrews is that the joint and marrow are hard to separate, which is thus an analogy to spirit and soul which are similarly hard to differentiated. Note the language, "For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing..." Sharper than any double-edged sword, in other words God can tell the difference between soul and spirit even if humans can't.

Hmmm, that's a new one...I like it. But I'll have to stew on it for a while for sure. Any particular reason for saying the physical is first?

Well, I think it is usually the case that the 2nd death occurs after the 1st death (thus it's Biblical title, the "second death"), but I think that it is possible for the soul to be destroyed first. Case in point being Charles Manson. I was amazed when I saw him on TV for a parole hearing (denied naturally). The dark black glow to his eyes was dramatically missing. I'd never noticed it before but he use to have a projected blackness to his eyes which was dramatically apparent to me after it was gone. And he seemed to have lost all of the evil persuasive power of speech that he use to have. I always saw it as nonsense but I could see how weak minds would be moved by this evil peruasive power that his voice had, but all of a sudden it was completely gone. I suspect the police were very aware of it too and intentionally let the press see him speak for a long time (they showed him talking for almost a minute on national television). Instead of the evil seductive quality that he use to have he just sounded like a hick idiot, rambling on about nothing. It seemed as though he was desperately trying to recapture his old power and was talking away at a million miles an hour in a vain attempt to work his old evil magic. It struck me that he had become an empty shell, what-ever demonic spirit had aided him before had either given up on him or been destroyed. In terms of my thinking now I would strongly suspect that he may have died the 2nd death before dying the first death and had become an empty shell without a soul.

 

[LutheranMafia]

Before I start commenting on Jude or Matthew, I have to ask this.

What is spirit again? The body is pretty obvious, its our physical being. The soul seems to be controversial as well as the spirit. What is what?

I always thought the soul was our emotions, thoughts, the essence of what makes you 'you' instead of some other person. The spirit seems to be the breath of life and perhaps the will of a living being.

I guess a better way to put it is "Is spirit a part of you, or is it you? Does it help define who you are, or is it a source of who you are? If you were to somehow rip out my spirit, what would I be? Is it something useful like my hand, that I can live without if its removed, or is it something vital like my blood, in which I can't do without?"

James 2:26 says, "the body without the spirit is dead", so I tend to doubt that the body can opperate without a spirit. However, having said that, I actually think the soul is closer to the animal self than the spirit is. The soul is linked to the blood in Genesis 9:4 (the word nephesh usually being translated as "life" here). All living creatures are said to be souls (nephesh is translated as living creatures 5 times in chapters 1 and 9 of Genesis) and in Isa. 19:10 the word nephesh is actually translated as the word fish.

My theory is that the soul of humans is not so different from the soul of wild animals, but that the spirit of humans is very different from the spirit of wild animals. Wild animals have a spirit to, and it is their breath of life which they can't live without, but I think it is something very different from the spirit of human beings. I see their spirits as dark shadows whereas the spirit of humans is luminous, with some exceptions (Charles Manson and Hitler being two).

 

[createdtoworship]

Soul isn't impervious. God can destroy both body and soul.

God can destroy both body and soul, but all he has to do is erase the information to destroy it. Thats easy, it is much more just to torment the soul for eternal death. Only this has the power to evade people from sinning.

Hell

Daniel 12:2 Everlasting Abhorrence

Matthew 5:22 Go Into Fiery Hell

Matthew 5:29-30 Maimed / Heaven & Whole/ Hell

Matthew 8:12 Darkness, Weeping, Teeth Gnashing

Matthew 10:28 Fear Who Destroys Body/Soul in Hell

Matthew 24:51 Weeping, Teeth Gnashing

Matthew 25:30 Darkness, Weeping, Teeth Gnashing

Matthew 25:41 Eternal Fire

Matthew 25:46 Eternal Punishment / Eternal Life

Mark 9:42-48 Better Millstone Thrown Into the Sea

Mark 9:43-48 Unquenchable Fire Worm Doesn’t Die

Luke 3:17 Unquenchable Fire

Luke 16:19-28 Rich Man in Hell and Beggar

2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 Eternal Destruction Away From God

Jude 7 Punishment of Eternal Fire

Jude 13 Darkness Reserved Forever

Revelation 14:10-11 Torment & No Rest

Revelation 19:20 Lake of Fire Burning With Brimstone

Revelation 20:1-3 The Abyss

Revelation 20:13-15 Lake of Fire

Degrees of Punishment

Matthew 10:15 More Tolerable for Sodom

Matthew 11:22, 24 More Tolerable for Sodom

Matthew 16:27 Repay According to Man’s Deeds

Luke 12:47-48 Many Lashes vs Few Lashes

Hebrews 10:29-31 Severer Punishment / Terrifying God

Revelation 22:12 Repay According to What Man Did



more on the eternality of the soul[/B]


Psalm 16:10 ESV

10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; Neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

at the resurrection of the damned the unjust are not annihilated because they are soon resurrected...to condemnation


Revelation 20:12–13

12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. 13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done.

The Soul (nephesh): Survives After Death

Matthew 10:28 Fear Who Destroys Body/Soul in Hell

Acts 7:59 Receive my Spirit

Luke 16:19-28 Rich Man in Hell & Beggar

Luke 20:37-38 God of the Living…Live to Him

Romans 2:8-9 Evil Soul: Wrath, Distress, Tribulation, etc.

2 Corinthians 5:6-8 Home in Body / Absent in Lord

Philippians 1:21-23 To Die is Gain With Christ

Revelation 6:9-10 Souls of Those Slain Cry Out

 

[Hillsage]

Didn't realize I had double posted

 

[Lord Herdsetk]

I'm just gonna say its bull[bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] to think its more just to torment people forever than to just let them perish of their own accord. As I've asked several times before, how does that serve God in any way shape, form, or fashion and how does it help that person or justly punish that person if they are to be tormented without end?

I've acknowledged that hell fire may be possible, as in literally. However, you must prove not that the hell fire burns forever, but that the people in it burn forever. Eternal punishment and eternal destruction I believe are one and the same. What must be proven is eternal burning. It must not be a contradicted theology. Eternal destruction directly butts heads with eternal suffering.

And again, why isn't this elaborated on within the Old Testament if this is such a vital part to where the unsaved go? This isn't a promise that God's going to keep eventually, if eternal suffering exists it should have been at least hinted at since the beginning.

And then there's the other question, why do we get new bodies if we're with Christ as soon as we die? If we don't go to paradise with Christ or hell as soon as we die, then that means the story of Lazarus and the rich man cannot be taken literally as that's exactly what happens in that story. The story of Lazarus and the rich man is clearly before any type of judgement day.

 

[Hillsage]

1Samuel
2:6 “The Lord kills and makes alive; He brings down to the grave [Sheol/hell] and brings up.”
2Samuel
14:14 “God does not take away life; instead, He devises ways so that a banished person may not remain estranged from Him.”
1Chronicles
16:34 “He is good! For His mercy endures forever.”
Psalms
16:9-10 “My heart is glad…my flesh also will rest in hope. For You will notleave my soul in Sheol/hell.”
22:27 “All the ends of the world shall…turn to the Lord. And all the families of the nations shall worship before You.”
49:15 “God will redeem my soul from the power of [Sheol] the grave for He shall receive me.”
65:2-3 “To You all flesh will come…You will provide atonement.”
66:3-4 “Through the greatness of Your power Your enemies shall submit themselves to You. All the earth shall worship You and sing praises to You.”
66:11-12 “You laid affliction on our backs...We went through fire...but You brought us out to rich fulfillment.”
86:13 “Great is Your mercy…You have delivered my soul from the depths of Sheol.”
90:3 “You turn man to destruction, and say, “return…”
Isaiah
25:6-8 He will make a feast for all people and destroy the covering cast over all people, and the veil that is spread over all nations. He will swallow up death [“in victory”—KJV] forever, and will wipe away tears from all faces.
26:9 “When Your judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.”
46:10-11 “Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times things that are not yet done, saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure’... Indeed I have spoken it; I will also bring it to pass. I have purposed it; I will also do it.”
48:10 “Behold, I have refined you…tested you in the furnace of affliction.”
52:10 “All the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God.”
Jeremiah
23:20 “The anger of the LORD will not turn back until he fully accomplishes the purposes of his heart. In days to come you will understand it clearly. “
NIV
3:31-33 “The Lord will not cast off forever. Though He causes grief, yet He will show compassion according to the multitude of His mercies. For He does not afflict willingly, nor grieve…men.”
Ezekiel
18:4 “All souls are Mine.” Thus, will not God provide for all His creation?
Daniel
9:24 “Seventy weeks are determined…to make an end of sins, to make reconciliation for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness.” All in due time!
Hosea
13:14 “I will ransom them from the power of the grave [Sheol/hell]…O death, I will be your plagues! O grave [Sheol], I will be your destruction!”
Joel

 

[Lord Herdsetk]

Bible question: did Jesus mention hell anywhere other than in Matthew?

Scroll down the page until you see the guy on there called neverfear. He explains things in much greater detail than I have been doing so far.

 

[createdtoworship]

I'm just gonna say its bull[bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] to think its more just to torment people forever than to just let them perish of their own accord. As I've asked several times before, how does that serve God in any way shape, form, or fashion and how does it help that person or justly punish that person if they are to be tormented without end?

I've acknowledged that hell fire may be possible, as in literally. However, you must prove not that the hell fire burns forever, but that the people in it burn forever. Eternal punishment and eternal destruction I believe are one and the same. What must be proven is eternal burning. It must not be a contradicted theology. Eternal destruction directly butts heads with eternal suffering.

And again, why isn't this elaborated on within the Old Testament if this is such a vital part to where the unsaved go? This isn't a promise that God's going to keep eventually, if eternal suffering exists it should have been at least hinted at since the beginning.

And then there's the other question, why do we get new bodies if we're with Christ as soon as we die? If we don't go to paradise with Christ or hell as soon as we die, then that means the story of Lazarus and the rich man cannot be taken literally as that's exactly what happens in that story. The story of Lazarus and the rich man is clearly before any type of judgement day.

eternal hell fire deters sinners from their ways, and they walk righteously. Annihilation is like suicide....it's the easy way out. you have yet to prove why annihilation views are any different than suicidal tendencies.

lazerus and the rich man are talking about paradise. But when we die we are fast forwarded to judment day each of us individually. But what is more ridiculous is that our souls turn off and wait for judgment day, thats funny to me.

the reason why the old testament doesn't speak of these things is because they went to paradise, not heaven. And paradise was emptied at the resurrection when many old testament saints were resurrected and walked around with Christ.