Justification and Sanctification ?

[timothyu]

seeking Him, drawing near to Him, remaining in Him, increasing in holiness by walking in the Spirit. These are directives given us.

Yes which lead us away from that in ourselves we must reject and understanding why, will not carry it forward with us.

 

[zoidar]

But that is focusing on self. The idea is to reject self.

"Reject self" sounds like an Buddhist/Hindu concept. But you probably mean something else. Maybe you mean reject egotism?

 

[timothyu]

"Reject self" sounds like an Buddhist/Hindu concept. But you probably mean something else. Maybe you mean reject egotism?

I mean upon becoming self aware we took it upon ourselves to pursue self interest, to self determine what it good and evil, to self justify those determinations, to be self centered contrary to the second commandment of Jesus, etc etc., all of which and more create all the woes of the world.

 

[setst777]

Yes which lead us away from that in ourselves we must reject and understanding why, will not carry it forward with us.

Yes, we do reject self - the sinful self, living for sinful flesh and its passions; however, the hope of every Christian is the Promise of God to inherit eternal life in His Kingdom - the Kingdom of Light. Without that hope of the Gospel, Eternal Life, [John 3:16), Christians have no motive to live out The Faith. I would say that you are missing a major part of the Gospel if you have no hope in the glory that is yet to be revealed. That is the hope for which we all wait upon at this present time.

1 Corinthians 15:19 (WEB) 19 If we have only hoped in Christ in this life, we are of all men most pitiable.

1 Corinthians 15:30-32 (WEB) 30 Why do we also stand in jeopardy every hour? 31 I affirm, by the boasting in you which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily. 32 If I fought with animals at Ephesus for human purposes, what does it profit me? If the dead are not raised, then “let’s eat and drink, for tomorrow we die.” [Isaiah 22:13]

Matthew 6:19-21 (WEB) 19 “Don’t lay up treasures for yourselves on the earth, where moth and rust consume, and where thieves break through and steal; 20 but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust consume, and where thieves don’t break through and steal; 21 for where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

1 Timothy 6:18-19 (WEB) 18 that they do good, that they be rich in good works, that they be ready to distribute, willing to share; 19 laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold of eternal life.

Romans 5:1-2 (WEB) Being therefore justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ; 2 through whom we also have our access by faith into this grace in which we stand. We rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Why is Lord Jesus spending so much time preparing a place for us if we have no future hope in God's blessed Kingdom?

Romans 8:20-21 (WEB) 20 For the creation was subjected to vanity, not of its own will, but because of him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of decay into the liberty of the glory of the children of God.

Romans 8:23-25 (WEB) 23 Not only so, but ourselves also, who have the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for adoption, the redemption of our body. 24 For we were saved in hope, but hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for that which he sees? 25 But if we hope for that which we don’t see, we wait for it with patience.

Galatians 5:5 (WEB) 5 For we, through the Spirit, by faith wait for the hope of righteousness.

We do not have much of a witness for Christ if our only hope is in this corrupted life.

1 Peter 3:15 (WEB) Always be ready to give an answer to everyone who asks you a reason concerning the hope that is in you, with humility and fear

1 Thessalonians 5:8 (WEB) But since we belong to the day, let’s be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and for a helmet, the hope of salvation.

Titus 2:13-14 (WEB) 12 instructing us to the intent that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we would live soberly, righteously, and godly in this present age; 13 looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify for himself a people for his own possession, zealous for good works.

1 Peter 1:3 (WEB) Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead

1 Peter 1:13 (WEB) Therefore prepare your minds for action. Be sober, and set your hope fully on the grace that will be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ

1 Corinthians 2:9 (WEB)
9 But as it is written, “Things which an eye didn’t see, and an ear didn’t hear, which didn’t enter into the heart of man, these God has prepared for those who love him.” [Isaiah 64:4]

1 John 3:2 (WEB) 2 Beloved, now we are children of God. It is not yet revealed what we will be; but we know that when he is revealed, we will be like him; for we will see him just as he is. 3 Everyone who has this hope set on him purifies himself, even as he is pure.

Revelation 12:22-26 (WEB) 12 “Behold, I come quickly. My reward is with me, to repay to each man according to his work. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. 14 Blessed are those who do his commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter in by the gates into the city. 15 Outside are the dogs, the sorcerers, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood. 16 I, Jesus, have sent my angel to testify these things to you for the assemblies. I am the root and the offspring of David, the Bright and Morning Star.”

Job 19:25-26 (WEB) 25 But as for me, I know that my Redeemer lives. In the end, he will stand upon the earth. 26 After my skin is destroyed, then I will see God in my flesh

Revelation 21:3 (WEB) I heard a loud voice out of heaven saying, “Behold, God’s dwelling is with his people, and he will dwell (tabernacle) with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God.

Revelation 21:23-24 (KJV) 22 I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God, the Almighty, and the Lamb, are its temple [sanctuary: Isaiah 8:13-15]. 23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light [the brightness of God’s Glory dwelling bodily: Hebrews 1:3] thereof [Hebrews 1:3; Ezekiel 43:1-9; Isaiah 60:19-20; 2 Samuel 22:29]. 24 The nations will walk in its light.

2 Peter 3:11-13 (WEB) 11 Therefore since all these things will be destroyed like this, what kind of people ought you to be in holy living and godliness, 12 looking for and earnestly desiring the coming of the day of God, which will cause the burning heavens to be dissolved, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? 13 But, according to his promise, we look for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.

Therefore, if salvation is just denying yourself at the present time, then that is a pretty miserable Gospel. What all Christians hope for is the Eternal Life that God promised those who love Him.

 

[timothyu]

however, the hope of every Christian is the Promise of God to inherit eternal life in His Kingdom - the Kingdom of Light. Without that hope of the Gospel, Eternal Life, [John 3:16), Christians have no motive to live out The Faith.

Yes and Paul never saw it and probably neither will we. The transition to the Kingdom is happening everyday and that transition occurs as we leave the self serving ways of man behind. That transition runs in importance even before inheritance of eternal life. We are secondary.

 

[setst777]

Yes and Paul never saw it and probably neither will we. The transition to the Kingdom is happening everyday and that transition occurs as we leave the self serving ways of man behind. That transition runs in importance even before inheritance of eternal life. We are secondary.

Well, Timothyu, I do understand the transition of the Kingdom, but at this present time, things are growing worse, and will continue to grow worse until the appearing of Christ.

Matthew 24:11-13 (WEB) [To believers] 11 Many false prophets will arise and will lead many astray. 12 Because iniquity will be multiplied, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end will be saved.

The Sons of God will be revealed in due time. However, at this present time, things will become ever more wicked until Lord Jesus comes again.''

Matthew 24:21-22 (WEB) 21 for then there will be great suffering, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, nor ever will be. 22 Unless those days had been shortened, no flesh would have been saved. But for the sake of the chosen ones, those days will be shortened.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Justification means being declared righteous, "(just as if we'd never sinned); while sanctification means growing in righteousness.​

This is not the historical teaching of the church. The believer is justified by being forgiven, cleansed, made a new creation- not merely declared righteous but filled with the gift of righteousness as he enters fellowship with God, now enabled to walk in His ways as a slave to righteousness instead of to sin- by grace, by the Spirit and the love that's been poured out into His heart (Rom 5:5). Justification and sanctification are part and parcel of the same thing: holiness, the life of God in us, with sanctification being a growth in that holiness, in that transformation into His own image as opposed to burying it or turning back away from it.

"Sanctification" means --of itself-- only what it means. It does not in every use of the word (or related concepts) in scripture, refer to the doctrine that is usually called the Doctrine of Sanctification, which is about growth subsequent to justification and regeneration.

 

[timothyu]

Well, Timothyu, I do understand the transition of the Kingdom, but at this present time, things are growing worse, and will continue to grow worse until the appearing of Christ.

As they have to many people in the last 2000 years. Granted we are truly at a global scale now. But in my opinion as there is nothing we can do about it, there are more important things to dwell upon. Things getting worse should theoretically cause more people to look at themselves and realize they must leave the traditional self serving ways of man behind.

 

[setst777]

As they have to many people in the last 2000 years. Granted we are truly at a global scale now. But in my opinion as there is nothing we can do about it, there are more important things to dwell upon. Things getting worse should theoretically cause more people to look at themselves and realize they must leave the traditional self serving ways of man behind.

My posts to you were in response to your belief which you described, in opposition to "fhanson" as follows:

timothyu said:
Rather than thinking of growing into something, think of it as growing away from something.. ourselves, or more accurately our conception of self.

The point "fhanson" and I were pointing out is that the full message of the Gospel is not just denying the self (the serving of selfish ambitions of the flesh), but to follow Christ Jesus into a holy life of righteousness and love, and so be transformed in the attitude of our minds to be like him. Both are necessary aspects of the Gospel Faith. We deny self, and we also are to store up treasures in heaven by good deeds accomplished by the working out of our faith in righteousness and love.

The Gospel does not call this selfishness, but rather, the Gospel calls this "putting on the new man" that is being transformed to be like Christ Jesus in love and righteousness. Both rejecting the old way of life, and working towards the new life in Christ, must work together. One without the other will not work. The Gospel of the Kingdom instructs us that both are necessary.

Ephesians 4:19-24 (WEB) 19 They, having become callous, gave themselves up to lust, to work all uncleanness with greediness. 20 But you didn’t learn Christ that way, 21 if indeed you heard him, and were taught in him, even as truth is in Jesus: 22 that you put away, as concerning your former way of life, the old man that grows corrupt after the lusts of deceit, 23 and that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind, 24 and put on the new man, who in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of truth.

Colossians 3:9-14 (WEB) 9 Don’t lie to one another, seeing that you have put off the old man with his doings, 10 and have put on the new man, who is being renewed in knowledge after the image of his Creator, 11 where there can’t be Greek and Jew, circumcision and uncircumcision, barbarian, Scythian, bondservant, or free person; but Christ is all, and in all. 12 Put on therefore, as God’s chosen ones, holy and beloved, a heart of compassion, kindness, lowliness, humility, and perseverance; 13 bearing with one another, and forgiving each other, if any man has a complaint against any; even as Christ forgave you, so you also do. 14 Above all these things, walk in love, which is the bond of perfection.

And a major aspect of that Gospel is that Christians look forward, in hope, to the Eternal Kingdom to come where righteousness dwells forever. This is not a selfish desire, but rather this is a desire that God wills for us to have, as our possession, by faith in His Son.

For instance, we can deny ourselves and live like hermits, or like the ascetic Jews, but what good are we to anyone else if we do not also live out a life of love in righteousness - to be a light in a dark world? Therefore, both are to be done together for salvation to occur.

 

[setst777]

"Sanctification" means --of itself-- only what it means. It does not in every use of the word (or related concepts) in scripture, refer to the doctrine that is usually called the Doctrine of Sanctification, which is about growth subsequent to justification and regeneration.

I see Scriptures where we grow, and become more mature in The Faith (2 Thessalonians 1:3; Revelation 2:19), and our faith is tested (James 1:2-4; 1 Peter 1:6-7). Can you show me Scriptures in which we grow or mature in sanctification?

I ask you this because the Scriptures teach that without sanctification, no one can see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14-17).

Hebrews 12:14-17 (WEB) 14 Follow after peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no man will see the Lord, 15 looking carefully lest there be any man who falls short of the grace of God, lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and many be defiled by it, 16 lest there be any sexually immoral person, or profane person, like Esau, who sold his birthright for one meal. 17 For you know that even when he afterward desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no place for a change of mind though he sought it diligently with tears.

So, either you are sanctified or you are not sanctified, but we do grow and mature in the faith - to become more like Christ by experience in living out our faith; but faith itself is sanctification onto God; would you agree? I mean, isn't the faith God accepts, include repentance, and is manifested in sanctification?

Acts 17:30 (WEB) 30 The times of ignorance therefore God overlooked. But now he commands that all people everywhere should repent

Acts 20:20-21 (NIV) 20 You know that I have not hesitated to preach anything that would be helpful to you but have taught you publicly and from house to house. 21 I have declared to both Jews and Greeks that they must turn to God in repentance and have faith in our Lord Jesus.

Acts 26:19-20 (WEB) 19 “Therefore, King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision, 20 but declared first to them of Damascus, at Jerusalem, and throughout all the country of Judea, and also to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, doing works worthy of repentance.

2 Corinthians 7:10 (WEB) 10 For godly sorrow produces repentance to salvation, which brings no regret. But the sorrow of the world produces death.

2 Peter 3:9 (WEB) 9 The Lord is not slow concerning his promise, as some count slowness; but he is patient with us, not wishing that anyone should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

How do you define "regeneration?" Be descriptive. What other terms are used that mean "regeneration?"

 

[AbbaLove]

Mark Quayle said:​

"Sanctification" means --of itself-- only what it means. It does not in every use of the word (or related concepts) in scripture, refer to the doctrine that is usually called the Doctrine of Sanctification, which is about growth subsequent to justification and regeneration.​

What is sanctification? What is the definition of Christian sanctification? | GotQuestions.org

What is sanctification? What is the definition of Christian sanctification? Is sanctification positional or progressive?

www.gotquestions.org

... (Doctrine Of Sanctification). Progressive sanctification seems to be the norm within Christendom.

What is justification? What does it mean to be justified? | GotQuestions.org ... (Doctrine of Justification). Can't have one without the other. The order seems to depend on one's preference (church doctrine or Holy Spirit counsel). Does church doctrine always line up with that of the Holy Spirit?

I see Scriptures where we grow, and become more mature in The Faith (2 Thessalonians 1:3; Revelation 2:19), and our faith is tested (James 1:2-4; 1 Peter 1:6-7). Can you show me Scriptures in which we grow or mature in sanctification?

I ask you this because the Scriptures teach that without sanctification, no one can see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14-17).

We may have arrived at a cul-de-sac of sorts in which scrptures have been so theologized over 2000 years that discussing which comes first (sanctification or justification) apparently can't be proved for those that think the order should be changed with justification before sanctification (1 Corinthians 6:11)

It was your opinion in your first post (answering the 5 questions) that my understanding is "dangerouos". The Apostles and early disciples were always aware of the "dangers" of being an outspoken follower of Christ. What Christian today wants to rock the boat knowing that doing so more likely results in disunity than unity?

 

[zoidar]

Mark Quayle said:​

"Sanctification" means --of itself-- only what it means. It does not in every use of the word (or related concepts) in scripture, refer to the doctrine that is usually called the Doctrine of Sanctification, which is about growth subsequent to justification and regeneration.​

What is sanctification? What is the definition of Christian sanctification? | GotQuestions.org

What is sanctification? What is the definition of Christian sanctification? Is sanctification positional or progressive?

www.gotquestions.org

... (Doctrine Of Sanctification). Progressive sanctification seems to be the norm within Christendom.

What is justification? What does it mean to be justified? | GotQuestions.org ... (Doctrine of Justification). Can't have one without the other. The order seems to depend on one's preference (church doctrine or Holy Spirit counsel). Does church doctrine always line up with that of the Holy Spirit?



We may have arrived at a cul-de-sac of sorts in which scrptures have been so theologized over 2000 years that discussing which comes first (sanctification or justification) apparently can't be proved for those that think the order should be changed with justification before sanctification (1 Corinthians 6:11)

It was your opinion in your first post (answering the 5 questions) that my understanding is "dangerouos". The Apostles and early disciples were always aware of the "dangers" of being an outspoken follower of Christ. What Christian today wants to rock the boat knowing that doing so more likely results in disunity than unity?

Do you have any quotes from the Church Fathers that show that the Early Church held sanctification before justification? I haven't looked for it myself.

 

[setst777]

Mark Quayle said:​

"Sanctification" means --of itself-- only what it means. It does not in every use of the word (or related concepts) in scripture, refer to the doctrine that is usually called the Doctrine of Sanctification, which is about growth subsequent to justification and regeneration.​

What is sanctification? What is the definition of Christian sanctification? | GotQuestions.org

What is sanctification? What is the definition of Christian sanctification? Is sanctification positional or progressive?

www.gotquestions.org

... (Doctrine Of Sanctification). Progressive sanctification seems to be the norm within Christendom.

What is justification? What does it mean to be justified? | GotQuestions.org ... (Doctrine of Justification). Can't have one without the other. The order seems to depend on one's preference (church doctrine or Holy Spirit counsel). Does church doctrine always line up with that of the Holy Spirit?

We may have arrived at a cul-de-sac of sorts in which scrptures have been so theologized over 2000 years that discussing which comes first (sanctification or justification) apparently can't be proved for those that think the order should be changed with justification before sanctification (1 Corinthians 6:11)

It was your opinion in your first post (answering the 5 questions) that my understanding is "dangerouos". The Apostles and early disciples were always aware of the "dangers" of being an outspoken follower of Christ. What Christian today wants to rock the boat knowing that doing so more likely results in disunity than unity?

When we sanctify (separate) ourselves onto the Lord from serving sin to following Lord Jesus, God sanctifies us onto himself and justifies us. By sanctifying ourselves to God does not mean we will never sin again in thought, word, or deed, but that we no longer live for and serve the Old Man of Sin.

If you say, as a Christian, that you never sin in thought, word, or deed then God's Word to you is that you deceive yourself and the truth is not in you.

1 John 1:6-9 (WEB)
6 If we say that we have fellowship with him and walk in the darkness, we lie, and don’t tell the truth.
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ, his Son, cleanses us from all sin.
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us the sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

John is teaching the Christians, whom he is writing to in the present tense, what it means to be sanctified before God. God accounts righteousness to those who live by faith evidenced by following His Son.

Since you believe that you never sin, that you always love and serve God with all your heart, mind, and soul, and body, then you do not need Christ Jesus as your High Priest to make intercession for you, because you never commit any sins in thought, word, or deed. You do not need God to account righteousness to you, or to say the part of the Lord's Prayer where you ask God to forgive you as you forgive others, because you are already righteous and holy in yourself.

Hebrews 7:25 (WEB) 25 Therefore he is also able to save to the uttermost those who draw near to God through him, seeing that he lives forever to make intercession for them. 26 Such a high priest truly meets our need—one who is holy, blameless, pure, set apart from sinners, exalted above the heavens. 27 Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself. 28 For the law appoints as high priests men in all their weakness; but the oath, which came after the law, appointed the Son, who has been made perfect forever.

When sin and death has finally been conquered, and we are raised incorruptible, then we will be completely holy and perfect, without sin. The New Covenant has its fulfillment in the glorified state when we dwell in the presence of God forever. The fulfillment is in the Eternal State. At the present time, we grow in love for God, as we live out our faith. And, according to how we live out our faith now, we will be rewarded in the eternal state. Some Christians will shine like the stars in heaven, when others will shine like the firmanent. God accounts righteousness to us who live by faith, not that we are completely righteous now.

Daniel 12:3 (WEB) Those who are wise will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever.

 

[sawdust]

Without getting into a debate the vast majority of Christians agree on the following explanation ...

​

Justification means being declared righteous, "(just as if we'd never sinned); while sanctification means growing in righteousness.​

Some may differ on interpretation, but the purpose of this thread is your interpretation of Romans 7 - especially verses 17-20. Do you interpret Romans 7:17-20 that Paul is as much as saying that he finds it difficult to stop sinning even after (not before) his "born again" conversion (Titus 3:5).

17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.​

How does one grow in righteousness if they can't seem to stop their sinning ... "Sin no more, lest a worse thing come upon you.” (John 5:14) and "Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more. ... from now on sin no more." (John 8:10-11).

He saved us, not because of any works of righteousness that we have done, but because of His own compassion and mercy, by the cleansing of the new birth (spiritual transformation, regeneration) and renewing by the Holy Spirit, (Titus 3:5)​

Paul is simply stating the position we all find ourselves in apart from the grace of God. No matter how kind or patient or loving we may think ourselves to be, our human good is finite and we will eventually be shown up for the sinner we are under testing.

Paul isn't saying it is difficult to stop sinning, he is saying it is impossible. Therefore, he ends the passage with ....

Romans 7:25
Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!

Ephesians 2:5
made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.

 

[fhansen]

Paul isn't saying it is difficult to stop sinning, he is saying it is impossible. Therefore, he ends the passage with ....

Romans 7:25
Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!

Ephesians 2:5
made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.

And this is a basic misunderstanding of the Reformed movement. In truth, Christ delivers me from the sin that separates me from God, earning me death. Grace saves me by not only forgiveness of sin but by the overcoming of future sin, enabling us to 'go, and sin no more' with a new, authentic righteousness not based on the law but on faith, a righteousness that's ensured to the extent that we walk by the Spirit, now in union with God, under grace. This understanding flows naturally from Rom 6 and into Rom 8.

"But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life." Rom 6:22

"And so he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit."

"Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God." Rom 8:3-4, 8:12-14

 

[AbbaLove]

I see Paul as clearly referring to his life in Judaism prior to his conversion to life in Christ (Ro 7:25).​

Nor are we sinless in Christ (1 Jn 1:8-10).​

​

"Can't stop sinning" is prior to new birth. They do much better after new birth.​

But we are not sin free after the new birth (1 Jn 1:8-10). That comes only in glory.​

I gave Clare73 the "Winner Award" (poste;d on 3/11 and awarded on 3/12) as it represents (Titus 3:5) what "born again" (not lukewarm-nominal) Christians consider the correct theological interpretation of Romans 7:17-25. Also Clare73 "Agreed" with my introductory sentence (posted below) a representative theology of Christianity ...

​

Justification means being declared righteous, "(just as if we'd never sinned); while sanctification means​

growing in righteousness.​

Possibly why the majority of today's theologians use "progressive sanctification"(holiness) as following "justification". Which is contrary to 1 Corinthians 6:11 ... such that whether the Pope or highly educated theologians (Hebrew and Greek) they are able to correctly interrupt the Holy Bible for the masses.

That way we won't take the Words of Jesus and Paul ("stop sinning") as literal instruction knowing that it is impossible to stop sinning. What would we do without the Pope and the most highly educated born again theologians to write a worthy commentary for our consideration.

_____________________________________​

The other summation (possible conclusion) from your posts is that when Jesus told the lame man that he healed to: Stop sinning or something worse may happen. He new it wasn't possible for him to stop sinning under the existing covenant.

Likewise when Jesus told the woman caught in adultery to: "Go and sin no more" it wasn't meant to be literal under the existing covenant. Jesus' disciples had not yet received their conversion so under the present covenant it was impossible for them to stop sinnng.

Even after the disciples conversion (Titus 3:5) we have come to the conclusion thanks in part to Setst777 that it isn't possible for today's 'born again' Christians to stop sinning. Athough it may have been possible for the original Apostles to stop sinning (Titus 3:5).

That's possibly why some 'born again' Christians don't believe the 9 supernatural Gifts of the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 12: 1-11) are still active (ceased) among today's 'born again' Christians.

Same with Paul when he told some in the Corinthian church to "stop sinning". Yet more than a few Christians believe Paul was is talking out of both sides of his mouth when he says ...

21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. (Romans 7:21-23)​

Burningbush84 sums up his interpretation of the words of Jesus and Paul with this post ...

Well of course Jesus is going to say , "sin no more". What else is he suppose to say? "Just try and cut back on the sinning" ? In Matthew 5:48 it appears Jesus demands perfection. But he also said we should pray, "forgive us our trespasses". Unless your one of those people who think you should never pray the Lord's Prayer more than once in your lifetime.

Furthermore it is evident from some of your posts that Jesus' words should not be taken as literal by the lame man and adulturous woman because even today's born again Christians don't believe it's possible to stop sinning.

Thus it's to be expected that more than a few 'born again' Christians will in so many ways belittle a Christian who believes Jesus intended for the lame man that was healed and the adulturous to accept His words as possible.

When we are indoctrinated by theologians that it is impossible to stop sinning then other scriptures are misinterpreted which invariably leads to what is called "progressive sanctification" or "progressive righteousness"

What we've learned is that a born again Christian shouldn't take the words of Jesus as literal or when Paul tells others to "stop sinning" being that some thinks that Paul still considers himself a foremost "chief" sinner of sinners.

 

[BurningBush84]

AbbaLove, I believe Jesus demands perfection. Do you believe this also ?

 

[setst777]

AbbaLove, I believe Jesus demands perfection. Do you believe this also ?

I believe Lord Jesus demands perfection, to be holy, and to walk just as he walked. That should be the attitude of every Christian to never sin, and to live holy lives in righteousness and love. However, Lord Jesus also knows that, in this life, his faithful servants are weak in the flesh. Therefore, Lord Jesus, as our High Priest, is merciful, and helps us in our weakness, forgiving and guiding us as we continue in the faith.

Hebrews 2:17-18 (WEB) 17 Therefore he was obligated in all things to be made like his brothers, that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make atonement for the sins of the people. 18 For in that he himself has suffered being tempted, he is able to help those who are tempted.

Hebrews 4:14-16 (WEB) 14 Having then a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus, the Son of God, let’s hold tightly to our confession. 15 For we don’t have a high priest who can’t be touched with the feeling of our infirmities, but one who has been in all points tempted like we are, yet without sin. 16 Let us therefore draw near with boldness to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and may find grace for help in time of need.

Notice the pronouns "we" and "us." The Apostle includes himself, with the Christians he is writing to, as eligible for that mercy and grace in time of need.

Hebrews 7:25 (WEB) 25 Therefore he is also able to save to the uttermost those who draw near to God through him, seeing that he lives forever to make intercession for them. 26 Such a high priest truly meets our need—one who is holy, blameless, pure, set apart from sinners, exalted above the heavens. 27 Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself. 28 For the law appoints as high priests men in all their weakness; but the oath, which came after the law, appointed the Son, who has been made perfect forever.

1 John 1:6-9 (WEB) 6 If we say that we have fellowship with him and walk in the darkness, we lie, and don’t tell the truth.
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ, his Son, cleanses us from all sin. [all present tense] 8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. [present tense]
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us the sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness [present tense].

Notice the pronouns "we," "us," "ourselves." The Apostle John includes himself with the Christians he is writing to. No Christian is without sin, and if we say we are without sin, the Apostle John says we deceive ourselves (vs. 8).

However, if we walk in the light, as Lord Jesus is in the light (vs. 7) then, when we do sin in weakness, the blood of Lord Jesus cleanses us from all sin.

 

[timothyu]

Jesus took away sin, but realistically that means the original punishment for sin in that He opened a door previously closed, and gives us all access to the Kingdom, providing we do our part in rejecting the adversarial self serving ways of mankind and put God's will ahead of our own. The Bible is rife with that request being made including as commandments. The Kingdom ups the ante. We are also told His will will be done in earth as it is in heaven whether we want it or not so we better get on the right side.

People seem to have no problem these days dividing the world up into tribes even within their own nations, yet they find it difficult to divide the Kingdom from the world of man and live accordingly, preferring to pretend we build our own copy of the Kingdom here by ourselves. Not so. We just need to grow out of this concept of self government we have been taught since birth by the blind who continually lead the blind away from the Kingdom and back into the world of man which we, be it secular or religious, have made in our own image..

 

[fhansen]

I gave Clare73 the "Winner Award" (poste;d on 3/11 and awarded on 3/12) as it represents (Titus 3:5) what "born again" (not lukewarm-nominal) Christians consider the correct theological interpretation of Romans 7:17-25. Also Clare73 "Agreed" with my introductory sentence (posted below) a representative theology of Christianity ...

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Justification means being declared righteous, "(just as if we'd never sinned); while sanctification means​

growing in righteousness.​

Possibly why the majority of today's theologians use "progressive sanctification"(holiness) as following "justification". Which is contrary to 1 Corinthians 6:11 ... such that whether the Pope or highly educated theologians (Hebrew and Greek) they are able to correctly interrupt the Holy Bible for the masses.

That way we won't take the Words of Jesus and Paul ("stop sinning") as literal instruction knowing that it is impossible to stop sinning. What would we do without the Pope and the most highly educated born again theologians to write a worthy commentary for our consideration.

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The other summation (possible conclusion) from your posts is that when Jesus told the lame man that he healed to: Stop sinning or something worse may happen. He new it wasn't possible for him to stop sinning under the existing covenant.

Likewise when Jesus told the woman caught in adultery to: "Go and sin no more" it wasn't meant to be literal under the existing covenant. Jesus' disciples had not yet received their conversion so under the present covenant it was impossible for them to stop sinnng.

Even after the disciples conversion (Titus 3:5) we have come to the conclusion thanks in part to Setst777 that it isn't possible for today's 'born again' Christians to stop sinning. Athough it may have been possible for the original Apostles to stop sinning (Titus 3:5).

That's possibly why some 'born again' Christians don't believe the 9 supernatural Gifts of the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 12: 1-11) are still active (ceased) among today's 'born again' Christians.

Same with Paul when he told some in the Corinthian church to "stop sinning". Yet more than a few Christians believe Paul was is talking out of both sides of his mouth when he says ...

21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. (Romans 7:21-23)​

Burningbush84 sums up his interpretation of the words of Jesus and Paul with this post ...

Furthermore it is evident from some of your posts that Jesus' words should not be taken as literal by the lame man and adulturous woman because even today's born again Christians don't believe it's possible to stop sinning.

Thus it's to be expected that more than a few 'born again' Christians will in so many ways belittle a Christian who believes Jesus intended for the lame man that was healed and the adulturous to accept His words as possible.

When we are indoctrinated by theologians that it is impossible to stop sinning then other scriptures are misinterpreted which invariably leads to what is called "progressive sanctification" or "progressive righteousness"

What we've learned is that a born again Christian shouldn't take the words of Jesus as literal or when Paul tells others to "stop sinning" being that some thinks that Paul still considers himself a foremost "chief" sinner of sinners.

The church has struggled with these matters many centuries ago. The problem involves whether there is any consequence for sin. Can no amount or gravity of sin separate us from God again? The early church actually taught that there can be no repentance for serious sin after conversion, such as for murder or adultery. Conversion to the living God involved the turning away from sin and the ways of the world. Various passages support this no-more-repentance-available idea and in any case Gal 5 and elsewhere affirm that such sins lead to death. This was modified fairly soon, meaning that it was recognized that, due to God's love and mercy and desire that none should perish, one can repent of any sin, with a true change of heart. But sin was taken very seriously back then; the early believers had given up much to become Christians, including their lives and those who had returned to the flesh were not easily, or quickly, considered to be under God's grace again.

So the historic teachings maintain that a believer has embarked on a journey, away from sin and nearer and nearer to God, to the holiness without which he will not see God (Heb 12:14). He must be on that road, walking by the Spirit, remaining in Christ, or else he'll inevitably stray. While it's taught that absolute sinless perfection is not possible in this life, persistence in grave sin as mentioned above would be to mock God and the work of His Son as that kind of sin is directly opposed to and destructive of love of God and neighbor.