Justification and Sanctification ?

[setst777]

What do you think Jesus and Paul meant when they said, "stop sinning" ? Jesus told both the lame man that He healed to "Stop sinning or something worse could happen" and the woman caught in adultery to "Go and sin no more." That was before He told His disciples He would send them the Comforter, Counselor, Helper. Would Jesus have told the man and woman to stop sinnig if it wasn't possible?​

AbbaLove, do you ever sin in thought, word, or deed?

What does the following Scripture mean to you?

1 John 6:6-10 (WEB) [Note: Keep in mind that "we" includes one's self, and the Christians he is writing to.]
6 If we [the Christians whom he is writing to] say that we have fellowship with him and walk in the darkness, we lie, and don’t tell the truth.
7 But if we [the Christians whom he is writing to] walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ, his Son, cleanses us from all sin.
8 If we [the Christians whom he is writing to] say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we [the Christians whom he is writing to] confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us the sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we [the Christians whom he is writing to] say that we haven’t sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

What does the following Scripture mean to you?

1 John 2:1-6 (WEB) My little children [the Christians whom he is writing to], I write these things to you so that you may not sin. If anyone sins, we have a Counselor with the Father, Jesus Christ, the righteous. 2 And he is the atoning sacrifice for our sins

Based on these Scriptures, and others like it, when Lord Jesus said, "Go and sin no more," what that means to me is that we are no longer to live in any sin, to serve its desires. However, that does not mean a Christian will never sin in weakness or error in thought, word, and deed. These are the sins that God forgives if we continue to walk in the light of Christ in a sanctified life.

The ones who deliberately keep on sinning are the ones who are condemned even though they claim to be Christians:

Hebrews 10:26-27 (WEB) 26 For if we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more a sacrifice for sins 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and a fierceness of fire which will devour the adversaries.

"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."
sins (plural) implies repentance of confessed sins leading to one's salvation ... not after salvation

1 Corinthians 6:11 (WEB)
that each one of you know how to control his own body in sanctification and honor,

Romans 6:1-2 (WEB)
What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
May it never be! We who died to sin, how could we live in it any longer?
​

The Corinthian Church had sin issues, and so did the Roman Church, and all the Churches that Paul wrote to. Paul was not writing to the unsaved, but to the saved.

In "Romans 6:1-2" Paul is saying that we are not to continue in sin. No Christian, who truly believes, continues in sin, nor do they deliberately keep on sinning, but no Christian can say they never sin in thought, word, or deed; rather, they are not a slave to any sin to serve its desires. That is what I am understanding in light of the full context of the NT Scriptures.

For instance:

Galatians 5:19-25 (WEB) 19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Paul is saying that those who live in or practice any of the forementioned sins, and others like it, will not inherit the Kingdom of God. Paul is not saying that a Christian will never sin in thought, word, or deed in weakness or error. Yes, our desire, as true believers, is to not sin at all. In reality, however, we continue to live in sinful flesh in a sinful world, and we will sin in weakness or error.

For instance, have you ever gone over the speed limit? Have you ever eaten more than you needed to eat to sustain your life? Do you do all that you are able to show love to others and to share the Gospel? There are sins of commission and omission.

King David sinned by having Bathsheba's husband killed, and for committing adultery with Bathsheba in his heart. David repented and confessed his sin, and God washed him clean. Yes, David's desire was never to sin against God, he was a man after God’s own heart (Acts 13:22), but he was weak in the flesh, and his judgment was clouded, and temptation produced sin in him onto death.

James 1:13-16 (WEB) 12 Blessed is a person who endures temptation, for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life, which the Lord promised to those who love him. 13 Let no man say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God,” for God can’t be tempted by evil, and he himself tempts no one. 14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own lust and enticed. 15 Then the lust, when it has conceived, bears sin. The sin, when it is full grown, produces death. 16 Don’t be deceived, my beloved brothers.

But, as we see, David was deeply remorseful for the sins he committed, and he took responsibility, confessing his sins before God and repenting. God forgave him, and God did not remove His Spirit from David.

We sin in our thoughts as well. No, we don't want to sin, we want to be holy before God in every way, but we are weak in the flesh.

You say the following:
"sins (plural) implies repentance of confessed sins leading to one's salvation ... not after salvation"

If that were true, not a single person would ever be saved, since, as you say, confessing sins is "...not after salvation."

That is not good news, but bad news.

The same standard you desire to hold others to becomes the very same standard God will judge you by.

In the following Parable, Lord Jesus is explaining to His Disciples - those who already believe in him and are servants of Lord Jesus - how they are to treat others, and how they treat others, God will also judge them.

Matthew 18:22-35 (WEB) 22 Jesus said to him, “I don’t tell you until seven times, but, until seventy times seven. 23 Therefore the Kingdom of Heaven is like a certain king, who wanted to settle accounts with his servants [symbolizing those who are servants of Lord Jesus]. 24 When he had begun to settle, one was brought to him who owed him ten thousand talents. 25 But because he couldn’t pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, with his wife, his children, and all that he had, and payment to be made. 26 The servant therefore fell down and knelt before him, saying, ‘Lord, have patience with me, and I will repay you all!’ 27 The lord of that servant, being moved with compassion, released him and forgave him the debt. 28 “But that servant went out and found one of his fellow servants who owed him one hundred denarii, and he grabbed him and took him by the throat, saying, ‘Pay me what you owe!’ 29 “So his fellow servant fell down at his feet and begged him, saying, ‘Have patience with me, and I will repay you!’ 30 He would not, but went and cast him into prison until he should pay back what's due. 31 So when his fellow servants saw what was done, they were exceedingly sorry, and came and told their lord all that was done. 32 Then his lord called him in and said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. 33 Shouldn’t you also have had mercy on your fellow servant, even as I had mercy on you?’ 34 His lord was angry, and delivered him to the tormentors until he should pay all that was due to him. 35 So my heavenly Father will also do to you, if you don’t each forgive your brother from your hearts for his misdeeds.”

But, if you proclaim the mercy of God to your fellow Christian brothers and sisters, and if you are merciful and forgive others their sins, then God will have mercy on you and forgive your sins too; consider "The Lord’s Prayer." But if you continue in deliberate sin, that shows you have not repented. God will not forgive someone who continues to willfully sin against him.

 

[zoidar]

​

What do you think Jesus and Paul meant when they said, "stop sinning" ? Jesus told both the lame man that He healed to "Stop sinning or something worse could happen" and the woman caught in adultery to "Go and sin no more." That was before He told His disciples He would send them the Comforter, Counselor, Helper. Would Jesus have told the man and woman to stop sinnig if it wasn't possible?​

As for Jesus in this passage, I think he is referring to the sin that she was a slave under i.e. prostitution. But of course Jesus didn't mean she was free to go and live in other sins.

Prevalent Christian thinking it's impossible to stop sinning. Even priests and pastors apparently think it's impossible to stop sinning. Teaching their congregation that even our future sins are already forgiven before committed. So where's the incentive to stop sinning ?​

This teaching would seem to confirm why way too many Christians think it's just a matter of time before they sin again ... a vicious cycle.​

The question is how to break the power of sin. Is it simply a choice, or do we need the changed heart first? Is it the same for the unregenerated man and the regenerated?

"He that is in us is Greater than he that is in the world" (worldly pleasures are so tempting)​

​

Too many Christians have one eye on the world too much of the time and too little time with the other eye on His Word. Difficult to live a sanctified (holy) life. Even more difficult when Christians misinterpret His Word that our future sins are forgiven even before committed.​

​

"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."
sins (plural) implies repentance of confessed sins leading to one's salvation ... not after salvation

1 Corinthians 6:11 (WEB)
that each one of you know how to control his own body in sanctification and honor,

Romans 6:1-2 (WEB)
What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
May it never be! We who died to sin, how could we live in it any longer?

​

 

[setst777]

As for Jesus in this passage, I think he is referring to the sin that she was a slave under i.e. prostitution. But of course Jesus didn't mean she was free to go and live in other sins.

The question is how to break the power of sin. Is it simply a choice, or do we need the changed heart first? Is it the same for the unregenerated man and the regenerated?

I understand AbbaLove to be referring to Christians - those who are regenerate. AbbaLove already recognizes that confession of sin and forgiveness of is available to the unsaved, unregenerate, as she states in the following:

AbbaLove said: sins (plural) implies repentance of confessed sins leading to one's salvation ... not after salvation

Apparently, by the statement made, "AbbaLove" does not believe that "repentance of confessed sin" is available after salvation.
Blessings

 

[AbbaLove]

I understand AbbaLove to be referring to Christians - those who are regenerate. AbbaLove already recognizes that confession of sin and forgiveness of is available to the unsaved, unregenerate, as she he states in the following:​

Your previous post implies that ongoing sin is still part of a 'born gain' Christian's new life in Christ. Could that possibly be the reason why so many Christians believe Paul was a chief/foremost sinner after his conversion?

That line of reasoning to justify why sin is still present even in so-called born again congregations (that need deliverance from the enemy). A teaching (SOZO) that is becomng more prevalent in today's Christian (born again) churches.

Yet we know that isn't true according to other verses that a born again (new creation) is "dead to sin". Furthermore Paul tells the church (called out ones) to "stop sinning" as did Jesus to a lame man he healed and a woman "Go and sin no more" caught in adultery before His crucifixion, resurrection and appearance to His disciples.

The reason so many Christians have been led to believe that Paul considered himself a "chief-foremost" sinner after his conversion is that too many Christians have been led to believe that Christians are not "dead to sin" and therefore unable to "stop sinning" which is contrary to Paul's teaching and the Words of Jesus' to a lame man he healed and a woman caught in adultery.

AbbaLove said: sins (plural) implies repentance of confessed sins leading to one's salvation ... not after salvation​

​

Apparently, by the statement made, "AbbaLove" does not believe that "repentance of confessed sin" is available after salvation.​

IF after salvation one should sin (singular) they should confess it ASAP and not let sins (plural) accumulate like before repentance leading to one's salvation (one's washing, one's sanctification, one's justificaton).

According to Paul's teaching a 'born again' Christian is sanctfified (holy) being "dead to sin". However, that doesn't seem to be what many of today's "born again' Christians have been taught (Paul was still a "foremost-chief" sinner even after his born again conversion as a new creation in Christ).

Just because you and other Christians (you may associate with) believe they are not dead to sin and they can't stop sinning does that become the 21st century norm - security in Christian numbers (Barna Survey?)

What percentage of American Christians do you think the Lord would consider lukewarm? What will be their excuse when before the Lord?

"I was told by my pastor that Paul considered himself to be chief among sinners after his conversion and that's what the majority of our congregation believed as well as other Christians. Also the church elders and teachers believe that a Christian sins many times each day.​

​

7 For God did not call us to be impure, but to live a holy/sanctified life. (1 Thessalonians 4:7)
1 Thessalonians 4:4 - Bible Gateway

Who are Christians to believe ... The Word Of God or the seeker-sensitive gospel preached in some churches
(a lukewarm gospel that believes a Christian can sin several times during a 24hr day.)​

 

[AbbaLove]

God’s plan is to make you holy, and that entails first of all a clean cut with sexual immorality. Every one of you should learn to control his body, keeping it pure and treating it with respect, and never regarding it as an instrument for self-gratification, as do pagans with no knowledge of God. You cannot break this rule without in some way cheating your fellow-men. And you must remember that God will punish all who do offend in this matter, and we have warned you how we have seen this work out in our experience of life. The calling of God is not to impurity but to the most thorough purity, and anyone who makes light of the matter is not making light of man’s ruling but of God’s command. It is not for nothing that the Spirit God gives us is called the Holy Spirit. PHILLIPS (1 Thessalonians 4:3-8)​

 

[setst777]

Your previous post implies that ongoing sin is still part of a 'born gain' Christian's new life in Christ. Could that possibly why so many Christians believe Paul was a chief/foremost sinner after his conversion? Thus reasoning why sin is still present even in born again congregaations.

AbbaLove, I am not attacking you personally by my response. What I am doing is attempting to correct false doctrine. I do not expect you to respond to this message, just as you did not respond to my previous post to you, accept to comment on it in a judgmental way.

The purpose for this message, and my previous message, is to insure that these posts of mine are present and readable for the thousands of people who may view this message, and your messages, since our messages remain posted on Christian Forums indefinitely, likely for decades, if not more. By reading my messages, my hope is that Christians will not fall victim to false doctrine; for, when you say Christians are dead to sin and do not sin anymore, and if Christians believe it, then they may fall away, thinking they are failures.

Yes, Christians died to sin, and no longer live in sin. No Christian continues to live in any sin or sins. No Christian deliberately keeps on sinning. But that does not mean a Christian does not commit sin in weakness or error.

I can understand your loathing for those liberal Christians who think Christians can live in a sin or sins and still think God guarantees his/her salvation. A good part of the Reformed Church believes this way. You accuse me of the same, but my messages clearly show otherwise.

By your objection to liberal Christians, do not take the extreme view, and firmly declare that a Christian does not commit sins. That is not what the Scriptures teach us. Our attitude, as disciples of Lord Jesus, is to NEVER sin, but we will sin at times in thought, word, or deed. But no Christian deliberately lives in any sin or sins. That is the teaching of the NT Scriptures.

That is what Lord Jesus taught as well. Consider "The Lord's Prayer." Lord Jesus was teaching us how to pray to the Father: "Forgive us our Trespasses (sins - not just a singular sin) as we forgive those who Trespass against us." We need God's mercy and grace even as Christians.

Yet we know that isn't true according to other verses that a born again (new creation) is "dead to sin". Furthermore Paul tells the church (called out ones) to "stop sinning".

The context of all those Passages is talking about living in any sins or sins, to give ourselves over to serve a sin or sins, and implies a deliberate sinning.

The reason so many Christians have been led to believe that Paul considered himself a "chief-foremost" sinner after his conversion is that too many Christians have been led to believe that Christians are not "dead to sin" and unable to "stop sinning" which is contrary to Paul's teaching.

All of Paul's teaching about conversion addresses serving or living in any sin or sins as idols in one's life, as we did previously.

Romans 6:1-2 (WEB) 1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 May it never be! We who died to sin, how could we live in it any longer?

Paul is teaching that a Christian no longer gives himself up to lust and working all uncleanness with greediness, and have put off the former way of life, and to put on the new man. This does not mean faithful Christians will not commit in weakness.

Ephesians 4:19-23 (WEB) 19 They, having become callous, gave themselves up to lust, to work all uncleanness with greediness. 20 But you didn’t learn Christ that way, 21 if indeed you heard him, and were taught in him, even as truth is in Jesus: 22 that you put away, as concerning your former way of life, the old man that grows corrupt after the lusts of deceit, 23 and that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind, 24 and put on the new man, who in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of truth.

Paul teaches us that no sexually immoral, or covetous person, etc, has any inheritance in the Kingdom of God. Christians do not live sexually immoral lives, they are not covetous persons, etc. But that does not mean a Christian, in weakness, does not commit a sin in thought, word, or deed.

Ephesians 5:1-5 (WEB)
3 But sexual immorality, and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be mentioned among you, as becomes saints; 4 nor filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not appropriate, but rather giving of thanks. 5 Know this for sure, that no sexually immoral person, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the Kingdom of Christ and God.

Paul teaches us that those who practice evil things will not inherit the Kingdom of God, but he is not saying we will never sin in weakness in thought, word, or deed.

Galatians 5:20-21 (WEB) 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, strife, jealousies, outbursts of anger, rivalries, divisions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these; of which I forewarn you, even as I also forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit God’s Kingdom.

Paul is teaching us that we cannot expect to be saved if we deliberately keep on sinning, which is the very same thing he is teaching us in the previous Scriptures just quoted, and in all his Epistles. To practice sin, to give one's self up to sin, to let sin control us, implies a deliberate willingness to continue sinning. No such person will be saved, even if he calls himself a Christian.

Hebrews 10:26 (WEB) 26 If we {{{deliberately}}} keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left

IF after salvation one should sin (singular) they should confess it ASAP and not let sins (plural) accumulate like before repentance leading to one's salvation (one's washing, one's sanctification, one's justificaton).

Exactly! So what are you objecting for when you know Christians will sin???

However, Christians will commit more than one singular sin in their entire lives, unless they die soon after conversion.

1 John:1-2 (WEB) My little children [the Christians whom he is writing to], I write these things to you so that you may not sin. If anyone sins, we have a Counselor with the Father, Jesus Christ, the righteous. 2 And he is the atoning sacrifice for our sins (plural).

James 5:14-15 And the prayer of faith will save the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up. And if he has committed sins (plural), he will be forgiven.

1 Peter 4:8 Above all, keep loving one another earnestly, since {{{love covers a multitude of sins}}}. (plural)

James 5:19 My brothers, if anyone {{{among you}}} wanders from the truth and someone brings him back, 20 let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and will {{{cover a multitude of sins}}}. (plural)

So, is it Scriptural of you to keep saying that a Christian does not sin?

According to Paul's teaching a 'born again' Christian is sanctfified (holy) being "dead to sin". However, that doesn't seem to be what many of today's "born again' Christians have been taught (Paul was still a "foremost-chief" sinner even after his born again conversion as a new creation in Christ).

Just because you and other Christians (you may associate with) believe they are not dead to sin and they can't stop sinning does that become the 21st century norm - security in Christian numbers (Barna Survey?)

What percentage of American Christians do you think the Lord would consider lukewarm? What will be their excuse when before the Lord?

"I was told by my pastor that Paul considered himself to be chief among sinners after his conversion and that's what the majority of our congregation believed as well as other Christians. Also the church elders and teachers believe that a Christian sins many times each day.​

​

7 For God did not call us to be impure, but to live a holy/sanctified life. (1 Thessalonians 4:4)
1 Thessalonians 4:4 - Bible Gateway

Who are Christians to believe ... The Word Of God or the seeker-sensitive gospel preached in some churches
(a lukewarm gospel that believes a Christian can sin several times during a 24hr day.)​

Christians never live in any sin or sins. They do not make a practice of serving any sin or sins. Christian are to live holy lives in righteousness and love before God. Those Christians who do so, God mercifully forgives when they do sin in weakness, because we still live in the flesh.

1 John 3:9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God.

Christians presently have access to the Throne of Grace (Hebrews 4:16), so that, as Christians live to follow Christ, we may be assured that, when we confess our sins, God forgives us and cleanses us from all unrighteousness

1 John 1:9 If we (Christians) confess our sins (plural), he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins (plural) and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness (plural).

Matthew 6:14-15 For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you, but if you do not forgive others their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses. (plural)

1 John 2:1 My little children (Christians), I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.

You keep saying that a Christian does not sin. Ok, so you never sin in thought, word, or deed. But that is not what the Scriptures teach us.

1 John 1:9-10 If we (Christians) confess our sins (plural), he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins (plural) and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we (Christians) say {{{we have not sinned}}}, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

 

[AbbaLove]

​

No Christian continues to live in any sin or sins. No Christian deliberately keeps on sinning. _​

How is that different from "stop sinning or something worse could happen" and "Go and sin no more" and Paul saying "stop sinning"... so we agree?

We both agree that as a new creation in Christ with the abiding counsel of the Holy Spirit that the apostle Paul was NO WAY a "chief" sinner after becoming a Follower of Messiah Yeshuah.?

You may disagree with Paul's order ... "were washed, were sanctified, were justified" (1 Corinthians 6:11). Do you believe you were "justified" before you were "holy" (sanctified")?

I can understand your loathing for those liberal Christians who think Christians can live in a sin or sins and still think God guarantees his/her salvation. You accuse me of the same, but my messages clearly show otherwise.

Nowhere did i ever post on page 4 that i disagreed with your post(s) on page 4?
Nowhere did i ever post on page 5 that i disagreed with any of your post(s) on page 5?
As to my reply on page 6 there was not disagreement from you on Paul's order.

So, we actually agree when it comes to: Belief, Repentance and Faith are necessary for one's sanctification (holiness). Out of 60 Bible translations listed by Biblegate all use holy instead of sanctification with respect to the following verses ...

1 Peter 1:15-16​

15 but just as He who called you is holy, you yourselves also be holy in all of your behavior; 16 because it is written, “You shall be holy; for I am holy.” (WEB) Leviticus 11:44-45​

1. Would you agree that being "holy" is without sin as for example a "holy" vessel?

2. Is it possible for a mature born again new creation in Christ to be holy if they sin?

3. Do you believe holiness is unattainable (not possible) for a born again Christian if they can't seem to stop sinning?

The followng post (IMO) is representative of the vast majority of American Christians ...

Well of course Jesus is going to say , "sin no more". What else is he suppose to say? "Just try and cut back on the sinning" ?

It would be helpful if you could answer these 5 questions so everyone is on the same page even if we may not always agree ...

4. Why do you believe the majority of 'born again' Christians don't think it's possible to be holy before receiving our glorified heavenly bodies?

5. Do you believe a born again Christian is only holy when under the annointing?

Would be helpful if you would answer the above 5 questions highlighted in blue. So as to establish whether or not you think it's possible for a born again Christian to only stop sinning when under the "annointing" of the Holy Spirit and only then a holy vessel.

___________________________________________
​

Give these 5 questions your due dilience before posting. I'm headed home and won't be back to digest your answers and any replies by others until mid-morning tomorrow. As for myself i don't intend to post another reply until Thursday or Friday at the earliest. Expecting some insightful, thoughtful posts from you guys and gals.

Assume the reason Setst777 thought i was a "she" (in a previous post) is because it's generally assumed women are not temptd as much by sexual sin as are men. Thus it's generally assumed a woman's interest in sexual sin is only for monetary advantage such as destitute, an addicton to drugs, living on the street. (no need to reply as that is for another thread). Thus it's easier for women to stop sinning or not sin as frequently (no need to reply as that's for another thread).

 

[BurningBush84]

How is that different from "stop sinning or something worse could happen" and "Go and sin no more" and Paul saying "stop sinning"... so we agree?

We both agree that as a new creation in Christ with the abiding counsel of the Holy Spirit that the apostle Paul was NO WAY a "chief" sinner after becoming a Follower of Messiah Yeshuah.?

You may disagree with Paul's order ... "were washed, were sanctified, were justified" (1 Corinthians 6:11). Do you believe you were "justified" before you were "holy" (sanctified")?

Nowhere did i ever post on page 4 that i disagreed with your post(s) on page 4?
Nowhere did i ever post on page 5 that i disagreed with any of your post(s) on page 5?
As to my reply on page 6 there was not disagreement from you on Paul's order.

So, we actually agree when it comes to: Belief, Repentance and Faith are necessary for one's sanctification (holiness). Out of 60 Bible translations listed by Biblegate all use holy instead of sanctification with respect to the following verses ...

1 Peter 1:15-16​

15 but just as He who called you is holy, you yourselves also be holy in all of your behavior; 16 because it is written, “You shall be holy; for I am holy.” (WEB) Leviticus 11:44-45​

1. Would you agree that being "holy" is without sin as for example a "holy" vessel?

2. Is it possible for a mature born again new creation in Christ to be holy if they sin?

3. Do you believe holiness is unattainable (not possible) for a born again Christian if they can't seem to stop sinning?

The followng post (IMO) is representative of the vast majority of American Christians ...


It would be helpful if you could answer these 5 questions so everyone is on the same page even if we may not always agree ...

4. Why do you believe the majority of 'born again' Christians don't think it's possible to be holy before receiving our glorified heavenly bodies?

5. Do you believe a born again Christian is only holy when under the annointing?

Would be helpful if you would answer the above 5 questions highlighted in blue. So as to establish whether or not you think it's possible for a born again Christian to only stop sinning when under the "annointing" of the Holy Spirit and only then a holy vessel.

___________________________________________
​

Give these 5 questions your due dilience before posting. I'm headed home and won't be back to digest your answers and any replies by others until mid-morning tomorrow. As for myself i don't intend to post another reply until Thursday or Friday at the earliest. Expecting some insightful, thoughtful posts from you guys and gals.

Assume the reason Setst777 thought i was a "she" (in a previous post) is because it's generally assumed women are not temptd as much by sexual sin as are men. Thus it's generally assumed a woman's interest in sexual sin is only for monetary advantage such as destitute, an addicton to drugs, living on the street. (no need to reply as that is for another thread). Thus it's easier for women to stop sinning or not sin as frequently (no need to reply as that's for another thread).

1: yes holy means being perfect / sinless.
2: yes they can be made holy after they confess and trust in Jesus for forgiveness. But once they break 1 commandment, they're guilty of breaking them all (James 2:10) however I believe christians are in a state of grace. But if they have a opportunity to confess they should.
3. Yes I believe complete perfection is impossible in this life because we have a sinful nature. But after true repentance you get washed clean again. God forgives and forgives and forgives if your truly sorry.
4. Because Paul in Romans 7 clearly shows that it's impossible. "For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing."
5. I believe after a person confesses and trusts in Jesus for forgiveness (repentance) they are purified/made holy again . 1 John 1:9 "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness."

Jesus told us how we are to pray (Lord's Prayer). It says "forgive us our trespasses" . People who keep the 10 commandments perfectly wouldn't need that prayer .

Bible says to "pray continually".

 

[timothyu]

Holy
By Jeff A. Benner

קָדוֹשׁ​

qadosh​

This word is frequently translated as "holy," another abstract word. When we use the word holy, as in a holy person, we usually associate this with a righteous or pious person. If we use this concept when interpreting the word holy in the Hebrew Bible, then we are misreading the text, as this is not the meaning of the Hebrew word qadosh. Qadosh literally means "to be set apart for a special purpose". A related word, qedesh, is one who is also set apart for a special purpose but not in the same way we think of "holy," but is a prostitute (Deut 23:17). Israel was qadosh because they were separated from the other nations as servants of Elohiym. The furnishings in the tabernacle were also qadosh, as they were not to be used for anything except for the work in the tabernacle. While we may not think of ourselves as "holy," we are in fact set apart from the world to be Elohiym's servants and his representatives. Strong's: #6918​

 

[setst777]

How is that different from "stop sinning or something worse could happen" and "Go and sin no more" and Paul saying "stop sinning"... so we agree?

The quote, "stop sinning or something worse could happen," must be read in context. No one is to keep living in the same sins that they were enslaved to, if they truly repented and now live by faith in Lord Jesus, following Him. The difference between that kind of sinning from a sanctified Christian who commits a sin at a time of weakness or error is tremendous.

I quoted many Scriptures to you showing the difference between

• "giving one's self over to sin"
• "practicing sin"
• "living in sin"
• "deliberately keep on sinning,"
• "making sin habitual"

in contrast to those Christians who commit sins in weakness, repent, pick themselves up and continue to fight the good fight of faith.

I have no idea why you cannot see the difference. But I say that your doctrine is dangerous because it gives no way out for a faithful Christian who commits sins in weakness any saving grace to repent and continue on in their good fight of faith. Therefore, anyone who believes your message of doom will likely just give up and believe they are already condemned long ago, so why even try? That is why your doctrine is so dangerous.

The Devil was supposed to be our Accuser, who now tries to convince us that God will not forgive our sins. Far be it if a fellow Christian is doing the job of Satan, destroying the faith of others.

Revelation 12:10 (WEB) I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, “Now the salvation, the power, and the Kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Christ has come; for the accuser of our brothers has been thrown down, who accuses them before our God every day and night.

We both agree that as a new creation in Christ with the abiding counsel of the Holy Spirit that the apostle Paul was NO WAY a "chief" sinner after becoming a Follower of Messiah Yeshuah.?

You may disagree with Paul's order ... "were washed, were sanctified, were justified" (1 Corinthians 6:11). Do you believe you were "justified" before you were "holy" (sanctified")?

To repent and believe in Lord Jesus is a sanctified/holy life onto him. Those who sanctify themselves to God by faith are then justified and sanctified by God onto himself.

Nowhere did i ever post on page 4 that i disagreed with your post(s) on page 4?
Nowhere did i ever post on page 5 that i disagreed with any of your post(s) on page 5?
As to my reply on page 6 there was not disagreement from you on Paul's order.

Here is what you said:

AbbaLove said: Your previous post implies that ongoing sin is still part of a 'born gain' Christian's new life in Christ. Could that possibly why so many Christians believe Paul was a chief/foremost sinner after his conversion? Thus reasoning why sin is still present even in born again congregaations.

I am not implying that a Christian continues living in sin, or deliberately continues sinning. What I am saying is that true Christians walk in the light, and they have sanctified themselves to God by faith. These true Christians no longer want to sin against their Lord, but they will sin in weakness in thought, word, and deed. And when these true Christians, who walk in the light, do sin, God cleanses them from all sin by the blood of Christ.

1 John 1:6-9 (WEB) 6 If we say that we have fellowship with him and walk in the darkness, we lie, and don’t tell the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ, his Son, cleanses us from all sin.

There is no way anyone reading my posts would get the impression that Paul is still a chief sinner after his conversion, or that sin is present in the congregations. My messages really focus on living sanctified lives before God as the only acceptable faith by which God indwells us by His Spirit, and by which God sanctifies the true Christian onto himself. The Congregation of God is a Holy Priesthood.

However, not everyone who claims to be a Christian, and is part of the physical congregation, is truly saved.

So, we actually agree when it comes to: Belief, Repentance and Faith are necessary for one's sanctification (holiness). Out of 60 Bible translations listed by Biblegate all use holy instead of sanctification with respect to the following verses ...

1 Peter 1:15-16​

15 but just as He who called you is holy, you yourselves also be holy in all of your behavior; 16 because it is written, “You shall be holy; for I am holy.” (WEB) Leviticus 11:44-45​

1. Would you agree that being "holy" is without sin as for example a "holy" vessel?

Being sanctified onto God is to be holy onto God, and is the same thing as saying that a Christian "walks in the light."

However, where the faithful Christian, who walks in the light, falls short in his sanctified walk, God forgives, and washes clean.

1 John 1:6-7 (WEB) 6 If we say that we have fellowship with him and walk in the darkness, we lie, and don’t tell the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ, his Son, cleanses us from all sin.

What John wrote in that Passage is in the present tense, and is written to Christians.

Therefore, the faithful Christian remains sinless and holy onto God, even though he commits sins, not deliberately, but in weakness. What separates the true Christian from other "Christians" is that a true Christian is no longer a slave to the former life of sin; he no longer practices sin; he does not give himself over to sin to serve it; he does not deliberately continue sinning. A true Christian is now a follower of Lord Jesus, and so, he "walks in the light." That how the Christian serves God and lives for God in holiness, by walking in the light, so that, when he does sin in weakness, God is merciful to forgive him when he does commit sins.

2. Is it possible for a mature born again new creation in Christ to be holy if they sin?

Yes. See answer to question 1.

3. Do you believe holiness is unattainable (not possible) for a born again Christian if they can't seem to stop sinning?

Is holiness "unattainable"? No. Holiness is attainable, because we have a High Priest and Mediator who intercedes for us, and cleanses us from sins that we, as faithful Christians, sin in weakness in thought, word, and deed. And if you say you never sin in thought, word, or deed, then God's Word would say you are lying, which is sin.

1 John 1:6-9 (WEB) 6 If we say that we have fellowship with him and walk in the darkness, we lie, and don’t tell the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ, his Son, cleanses us from all sin. 8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us the sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

John is teaching the Christians, whom he is writing to in the present tense, what it means to be sanctified before God.

The following post (IMO) is representative of the vast majority of American Christians ...

It would be helpful if you could answer these 5 questions so everyone is on the same page even if we may not always agree ...

4. Why do you believe the majority of 'born again' Christians don't think it's possible to be holy before receiving our glorified heavenly bodies?

Firstly, we are to be holy onto God. Without sanctification/holiness, no one will see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14).

I do not know what most born again Christians think, but some Christians may misunderstand how we are made holy in this lifetime, and you likely may also misunderstand many born again Christians, just as you are misunderstanding me. All true believers in Lord Jesus are sanctified before God, so that, when we do sin in weakness, God cleanses us from all sins.

1 John 1:6-7 (WEB) 6 If we say that we have fellowship with him and walk in the darkness, we lie, and don’t tell the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ, his Son, cleanses us from all sin.

John is addressing Christians. The cleansing from sins is present tense and is a promise of God to those who walk in the light.

You might say, "how can they sin if they walk in the light?" The fact is that faithful Christians do sin in weakness and error in thought, word, and deed because we live in corrupted bodies of sin in a sinful world, and continually attacked by dark spiritual forces. So, as we walk in the light, as we live sanctified lives onto God, we will sin. Our desire is not to sin. We never want to sin. But when we do sin, God is faithful to forgive us and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Hebrews 7:25 (WEB) 25 Therefore he is also able to save to the uttermost those who draw near to God through him, seeing that he lives forever to make intercession for them.

5. Do you believe a born again Christian is only holy when under the annointing?

A true Christian is holy onto God, always cleansed from all sin. The exception is for those Christians who have fallen away, but later repented. In the "fallen away" state they were not saved. And that is why we must be ever vigilant to remain faithful, because we don't know when our end will come, or when Lord Jesus will return.

Luke 21:34-36 (WEB) 34 “So be careful, or your hearts will be loaded down with carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that day will come on you suddenly. 35 For it will come like a snare on all those who dwell on the surface of all the earth. 36 Therefore be watchful all the time, praying that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will happen, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

So, what you have read is my Scriptural response to your five questions. Meditate carefully on the responses, and answer wisely at an opportune time for you.

Blessings

 

[setst777]

Holy
By Jeff A. Benner

​

קָדוֹשׁ​

qadosh​

This word is frequently translated as "holy," another abstract word. When we use the word holy, as in a holy person, we usually associate this with a righteous or pious person. If we use this concept when interpreting the word holy in the Hebrew Bible, then we are misreading the text, as this is not the meaning of the Hebrew word qadosh. Qadosh literally means "to be set apart for a special purpose". A related word, qedesh, is one who is also set apart for a special purpose but not in the same way we think of "holy," but is a prostitute (Deut 23:17). Israel was qadosh because they were separated from the other nations as servants of Elohiym. The furnishings in the tabernacle were also qadosh, as they were not to be used for anything except for the work in the tabernacle. While we may not think of ourselves as "holy," we are in fact set apart from the world to be Elohiym's servants and his representatives. Strong's: #6918​

I know you well enough that you do not mean by your last sentence that God has mysteriously elected, from eternity past, a people to be set apart onto him as his servants and representatives, but that is how it sounds.

God sanctifies onto himself those who first sanctify themselves to him by repentance toward God, and faith in Lord Jesus, following him.

2 Timothy 2:19 (WEB) However God’s firm foundation stands, having this seal, “The Lord knows those who are his,” [Numbers 16:5] and, “Let everyone who names the name of the Lord depart from unrighteousness.”

Matthew 10:38 (WEB) He who doesn’t take his cross and follow after me isn’t worthy of me.

1 Thessalonians 4:3-8 (WEB) 3 For this is the will of God: your sanctification, that you [the believer] abstain from sexual immorality, 4 that each one of you know how to control his own body in sanctification and honor, 5 not in the passion of lust, even as the Gentiles who don’t know God, 6 that no one should take advantage of and wrong a brother or sister in this matter; because the Lord is an avenger in all these things, as also we forewarned you and testified. 7 For God called us not for uncleanness, but in sanctification. 8 Therefore he who rejects this doesn’t reject man, but God, who has also given his Holy Spirit to you.

If our faith is not evidenced in sanctification unto righteousness, we will never see the Lord.

Hebrews 12:14-16 (WEB) 14 Follow after peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no man will see the Lord, 15 looking carefully lest there be any man who falls short of the grace of God, lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and many be defiled by it, 16 lest there be any sexually immoral person, or profane person, like Esau, who sold his birthright for one meal.

 

[timothyu]

I know you well enough that you do not mean by your last sentence that God has mysteriously elected, from eternity past, a people to be set apart onto him as his servants and representatives, but that is how it sounds.

I did not write it.

 

[zoidar]

How is that different from "stop sinning or something worse could happen" and "Go and sin no more" and Paul saying "stop sinning"... so we agree?

We both agree that as a new creation in Christ with the abiding counsel of the Holy Spirit that the apostle Paul was NO WAY a "chief" sinner after becoming a Follower of Messiah Yeshuah.?

You may disagree with Paul's order ... "were washed, were sanctified, were justified" (1 Corinthians 6:11). Do you believe you were "justified" before you were "holy" (sanctified")?

Nowhere did i ever post on page 4 that i disagreed with your post(s) on page 4?
Nowhere did i ever post on page 5 that i disagreed with any of your post(s) on page 5?
As to my reply on page 6 there was not disagreement from you on Paul's order.

So, we actually agree when it comes to: Belief, Repentance and Faith are necessary for one's sanctification (holiness). Out of 60 Bible translations listed by Biblegate all use holy instead of sanctification with respect to the following verses ...

1 Peter 1:15-16​

15 but just as He who called you is holy, you yourselves also be holy in all of your behavior; 16 because it is written, “You shall be holy; for I am holy.” (WEB) Leviticus 11:44-45​

1. Would you agree that being "holy" is without sin as for example a "holy" vessel?

2. Is it possible for a mature born again new creation in Christ to be holy if they sin?

3. Do you believe holiness is unattainable (not possible) for a born again Christian if they can't seem to stop sinning?

The followng post (IMO) is representative of the vast majority of American Christians ...


It would be helpful if you could answer these 5 questions so everyone is on the same page even if we may not always agree ...

4. Why do you believe the majority of 'born again' Christians don't think it's possible to be holy before receiving our glorified heavenly bodies?

5. Do you believe a born again Christian is only holy when under the annointing?

Would be helpful if you would answer the above 5 questions highlighted in blue. So as to establish whether or not you think it's possible for a born again Christian to only stop sinning when under the "annointing" of the Holy Spirit and only then a holy vessel.

___________________________________________
​

Give these 5 questions your due dilience before posting. I'm headed home and won't be back to digest your answers and any replies by others until mid-morning tomorrow. As for myself i don't intend to post another reply until Thursday or Friday at the earliest. Expecting some insightful, thoughtful posts from you guys and gals.

Assume the reason Setst777 thought i was a "she" (in a previous post) is because it's generally assumed women are not temptd as much by sexual sin as are men. Thus it's generally assumed a woman's interest in sexual sin is only for monetary advantage such as destitute, an addicton to drugs, living on the street. (no need to reply as that is for another thread). Thus it's easier for women to stop sinning or not sin as frequently (no need to reply as that's for another thread).

It's not clear that Paul is describing the chronical order in 1 Cor 6:11. Possibly he is just explaining what has happened to them. If you can show from other passages that sanctification is before justification it will help your case.

Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.
— 1 Corinthians 6:11

Is your understanding that we are born again without being justified or sanctified and by living a sanctified life we are justified? I'm still not sure what your view is. If we aren't justified as we are born again, how come the robber was saved?

 

[fhansen]

Justification means being declared righteous, "(just as if we'd never sinned); while sanctification means growing in righteousness.

This is not the historical teaching of the church. The believer is justified by being forgiven, cleansed, made a new creation- not merely declared righteous but filled with the gift of righteousness as he enters fellowship with God, now enabled to walk in His ways as a slave to righteousness instead of to sin- by grace, by the Spirit and the love that's been poured out into His heart (Rom 5:5). Justification and sanctification are part and parcel of the same thing: holiness, the life of God in us, with sanctification being a growth in that holiness, in that transformation into His own image as opposed to burying it or turning back away from it.

 

[timothyu]

Rather than thinking of growing into something, think of it as growing away from something.. ourselves, or more accurately our conception of self.

 

[fhansen]

Rather than thinking of growing into something, think of it as growing away from something.. ourselves, or more accurately our conception of self.

I think one goes with the other. Being transformed into the image of God is to definitely grow in something, something that we lack, while growing away from the old self whose problem was his lack...of God. I mean we can't just be neutral; we either drawer nearer to God or we're already straying away from Him. Adam had to make that choice in Eden, and made the wrong one.

 

[timothyu]

Being transformed into the image of God is to definitely grow in something, something that we lack,

But that is focusing on self. The idea is to reject self.

 

[setst777]

But that is focusing on self. The idea is to reject self.

Timothyu, "fhansen" is right. When we repent toward God and believe in Lord Jesus, we are indeed renouncing the old master of sin. But it doesn't end there, because, instead of faith in the old master, serving its passions, we now, by faith, follow our new and rightful Master, Lord Jesus, in to a sanctified life of righteousness and love. It is this commitment of faith by which God indwells us by His Spirit to mark the believer as His own, and to lead the believer into that New Life of Faith, but only as the believer continues in the faith he had when he first received the Spirit, walking by the Spirit who leads him.

I say this because not all Christians will remain faithful, and so, they will grieve (Ephesians 4:17-32; Isaiah 63:10); quench (1 Thessalonians 5:19); insult (Hebrews 10:24-31); resist (Act 7:51), reject (1 Thessalonians 4:1-8), lie to (Acts 5:3), and test (Acts 5:9), the Spirit of God indwelling them, which can result in eternal punishment if not repented of (Hebrews 10:24-30); for the Spirit will only give a new life, and eternal life, to those Christians who continue to sow to the Spirit without giving up (Galatians 6:7-9). The Spirit leads the Christian as the Christian is, by faith, is willing to be led by the Spirit to the New Life now, and to inherit Eternal Life.

Galatians 6:7-9 (WEB) 7 Do not be deceived. God is not mocked, for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. 8 For he who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap destruction. But he who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life. 9 Let us not be weary in doing good, for we will reap in due season, {{if we}} do not give up.

Romans 8:12-14 (NIV) 12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation – but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. 14 For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God.

Romans 8:3-4 (WEB) 3 For what the law couldn’t do; in that, it was weak through the flesh, God did, sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh; 4 that the ordinance of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

So, not only does the believer renounce the old master, but he now follows Christ, which is to walk in the Spirit. This is the only faith by which we Belong to Christ.

Galatians 5:24-25 (NIV) 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit.

Therefore, although the indwelling Spirit guarantees eternal life to the believer, and provides the enabling to live a victorious life of faith, the guarantee and promise of eternal life is for those who are believing, and continue to believe with the same faith they had when the first believes and by which the Spirit indwelt them.

For instance, consider these Passages:

Hebrews 6:11-12 (WEB) 11 We desire that each one of you may show the same diligence to the fullness of hope even to the end, 12 that you won’t be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and perseverance inherited The Promises.

Hebrews 3:12-15 (WEB) 12 Beware, brothers and sisters, lest perhaps there might be in any one of you an evil heart of unbelief, in falling away from the living God; 13 but exhort one another day by day, so long as it is called “today”, lest anyone of you be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence firm to the end, 15 while it is said, “Today if you will hear his voice, do not harden your hearts, as in the rebellion.” [Psalm 95:7-8]

 

[timothyu]

and to lead the believer into that New Life of Faith, but only as the believer continues in the faith he had when he first received the Spirit, walking by the Spirit who leads him.

Which leads us further away from self, the original purpose. Parable of the Sower refers to that very thing, of how some fall back to the world of self. People think backwards thus they look where they are going rather than what they are escaping.

 

[fhansen]

But that is focusing on self. The idea is to reject self.

Well... we're supposed do our part in doing His will, opening the door when He knocks, seeking Him, drawing near to Him, remaining in Him, increasing in holiness by walking in the Spirit. These are directives given us.