Justification and Sanctification ?

[Bible Highlighter]

I don’t have a theology! And Christians are given the gift of discernment by the Holy Spirit according to the gospel, 1 Corinthians 12:10 KJV

Theology is simply the study of the things of God. If you believe various doctrines and truths in the Bible, you have a theology. Only atheists don’t have a biblical theology because they reject the Bible. So yes. You have a Theology. Every Christian does.

 

[biblelesson]

Also the imputation of Christ’s sacrifice is not only by having a faith alone in our initial salvation but it also includes walking in the light as he is in the light.

1 John 1:7
“But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.”

So you have to walk in the light in order for the blood of Jesus to cleanse you from all sin.

What is walking in the light?

According to the indirect wording in 1 John 2:9-11, walking in the light is loving your brother. So you have to love your brother in order for the blood of Jesus to cleanse you. So while faith alone is needed at one time to gain the imputed righteousness of Christ, you also need 1 John 1:7 as a part of this, too. Because being cleansed by the blood is a salvation issue. No blood cleansing a believer means they are not saved.

This kind of love we need to love our brother is a love that we cannot give and do not posses, as our carnal man has been crucified on the cross, we have been raised with Christ, and Christ lives in us, Galatians 2:20 KJV. The sanctification proces is not in our power, but by the Power of the Holy Spirit. And it is through the Holy Spirit we receive the Fruit of the Spirit: love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance, Galatians 5:22-23 KJV. We are given God’s love to be able to live our brother!

 

[throughfiierytrial]

Without getting into a debate the vast majority of Christians agree on the following explanation ...

​

Justification means being declared righteous, "(just as if we'd never sinned); while sanctification means growing in righteousness.​

Some may differ on interpretation, but the purpose of this thread is your interpretation of Romans 7 - especially verses 17-20. Do you interpret Romans 7:17-20 that Paul is as much as saying that he finds it difficult to stop sinning even after (not before) his "born again" conversion (Titus 3:5).

17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.​

How does one grow in righteousness if they can't seem to stop their sinning ... "Sin no more, lest a worse thing come upon you.” (John 5:14) and "Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more. ... from now on sin no more." (John 8:10-11).

He saved us, not because of any works of righteousness that we have done, but because of His own compassion and mercy, by the cleansing of the new birth (spiritual transformation, regeneration) and renewing by the Holy Spirit, (Titus 3:5)​

I understand these passages as an explanation of our struggles in straining toward the goal. Paul explains here the sanctification process and girations we go through during our process. Since it is indeed a process, a growth in maturity, there is a beginning point and these passages seem to point to those new beginnings...the beginning of childbirth pains as Paul likens rebirth to in other Scriptures.
But, take heart, Paul also pens, sow to please the Spirit which is loving God above all and our brothers as ourselves. Love is the fulfillment of the Law. We are not to sow to please the sinful nature. This is an easier way in the struggle. Rather than focusing on sin and eradicating it in our flesh, we focus on the matters of the Spirit and He grows our faith and righteousness.

 

[biblelesson]

So you have to walk in the light in order for the blood of Jesus to cleanse you from all sin.

According to the indirect wording in 1 John 2:9-11, walking in the light is loving your brother. So you have to love your brother in order for the blood of Jesus to cleanse you.

I know you will dispute this, but I will try and show you this anyway.

Your statement is based on works!

The blood of Jesus cleanse us immediately when we believe on Him, because this is a finished work. Jesus died already and shed His blood already. We automatically walk in the light when we come to Christ because Jesus is the Light.

The scripture you listed,
1 John 1:7
“But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.”

This scripture is not telling us to do anything in our fleshly abilities. This scripture is telling us this:

But if we walk in Christ, as Christ is the light, we will then have fellowship with one another, because it is the blood of Christ, the light, that cleanses us from all sin, all done by the Holy Spirit. Not our power, not of works.

 

[throughfiierytrial]

This kind of love we need to love our brother is a love that we cannot give and do not posses, as our carnal man has been crucified on the cross, we have been raised with Christ, and Christ lives in us, Galatians 2:20 KJV. The sanctification proces is not in our power, but by the Power of the Holy Spirit. And it is through the Holy Spirit we receive the Fruit of the Spirit: love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance, Galatians 5:22-23 KJV. We are given God’s love to be able to live our brother!

Titus states that we are given the Holy Spirit who teaches us to say no to all unrighteousness. We are engaged in the struggle, but we seek the Lord through prayer in all this.

 

[biblelesson]

Titus states that we are given the Holy Spirit who teaches us to say no to all unrighteousness. We are engaged in the struggle, but we seek the Lord through prayer in all this.

Amen!

 

[Mark Quayle]

I don’t have a theology! And Christians are given the gift of discernment by the Holy Spirit according to the gospel, 1 Corinthians 12:10 KJV

Everybody has a theology. Even atheists. They may not realize it, or be able to describe it adequately, but they have it.

 

[throughfiierytrial]

Everybody has a theology. Even atheists. They may not realize it, or be able to describe it adequately, but they have it.

Yes, we are given the gift of discernment and also taught to use great discretion not to mention all the teachings on self-control.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

True, the sanctification process is done by the Holy Spirit, as I mentioned it can be difficult,

Yes, but our free will is still involved.

We are told:

“...We are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end.” (Hebrews 3:13-14).

"Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life." (Jude 1:21).

"...be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life." (Revelation 2:10).​

We are told to:

1. Continue in the faith (Acts of the Apostles 14:22) (Colossians 1:23).
2. Continue in his goodness, otherwise we can be cut off (just like the Jews were cut off) (Romans 11:21-22).
3. Continue in the grace of God (Acts of the Apostles 13:43).

Believers can also grieve the Holy Spirit by their sin. This is not good because the following below can happen:

Isaiah 63:10
“But they rebelled and grieved His Holy Spirit; So He turned Himself against them as an enemy, And He fought against them.”

 

[BBAS 64]

Try reading Romans 8:1 in the King James Bible and not a Modern Translation.
It says there is no condemnation to those in Christ Jesus who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit.

Good Day, BH

I am very aware of the variant here you would think historically a bunch of Anglian Calvinists would have known better to follow a Greek text translated from a Latin Text by a Humanist Roman Catholic (His Error is a well known and easy to spot transcription error). We will never know why they made the textual choices that they made.

Hebrews 7:25
”Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.”

Must be read in context to verses like this in Hebrews:

Hebrews 10:26
”For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,“

And passages like this:

Hebrews 12:14-15
14 ”Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;”



This is saying that the Lord will write His laws in those who desire to be faithful to Him, and if they are faithful, their lawless deeds will be no more. Hebrews 10 does not say you can be unfaithful at any point and your lawless deeds will be no more.

Hebrews 10:26 says if we willfully sin after we receive the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sin.

Hence, why you have to confess and forsake sin to have mercy (Proverbs 28:13).

The context from chapter 7 is clearly the priestly intercession of Christ and it's superiority under the NC.

Chapter 10 and 14 are in the same book for sure notice that 10:26 ends with a " , " as does your quote form 12 there is much more to the immediate context that you have missed. You may find John Owens work or NT Scholar Tom Schreiner on Hebrews useful in this regard.

Umm.. where do you see this in the text ""in those who desire to be faithful to Him"??

It can not Say, what the text does not contain so adding to the text ideas that the text does not contain is bad a Hermeneutic.

Hebrews 10: 16, 17 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws on their hearts, and write them on their minds,” then he adds, “I will remember their sins and their lawless deeds no more.”

I Never suggested that Hebrews 10 did so your assertion is moot.

That passage in Hebrews 10 says we are to have our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience.
But more importantly, if you skip down towards the end of Hebrews 10, it says this:

”Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.” (Hebrews 10:38).

So you have a choice. A person can draw back.
Notice it says IF any man draw back and it does not say, and any man I have not chosen to be my Elect will draw back.

Keep reading verse 39 starts with a "but" { coordinating conjunction used to connect ideas that contrast.} so you missed the point. I know those silly verse numbers are a pain for contextual understanding I have an ESV that has omitted them helps me read a letter like Hebrews in one sitting like a letter as it was intended to be read.

39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

In Him,

Bill

 

[BBAS 64]

Also the imputation of Christ’s sacrifice is not only by having a faith alone in our initial salvation but it also includes walking in the light as he is in the light.

1 John 1:7
“But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.”

So you have to walk in the light in order for the blood of Jesus to cleanse you from all sin.

What is walking in the light?

According to the indirect wording in 1 John 2:9-11, walking in the light is loving your brother. So you have to love your brother in order for the blood of Jesus to cleanse you. So while faith alone is needed at one time to gain the imputed righteousness of Christ, you also need 1 John 1:7 as a part of this, too. Because being cleansed by the blood is a salvation issue. No blood cleansing a believer means they are not saved.

Good Day, BH

Joh 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed. But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God.”


What would cause a man to leave the Darkness he loves, and come to walk in the Light he hates?

In Him

Bill

 

[Clare73]

Israel received the promise made to Abraham as well, Psalms 105:6-11 KJV.

Israel received the fulfillment of the the everlasting covenent (Ge 13:15, Ge 17:8) of earthly land, both its possesion (Jos 21:43, Jos 23:14) and its occupation (1 Kgs 4:21, 24-25). There remains no land promise to Israel.

The OT is to be understood in the light of the NT; e.g., the blood of OT animal sacrifices did not actually cleanse sin (Heb 10:1-4), but covered sin (Ro 3:25) until it was cleansed on the cross.

In the light of the NT, the everlasting possession (Ge 17:8, 48:4) is the heavenly land (Heb 11:13-16), which has been received by those to whom it was promised--those of faith in the promise (Ge 15:5, seed; Jesus Christ, Gal 3:16).
There remain no promises to Israel, except to graft them back into the one olive tree of God's people, the church of both the OT and the NT saints, IF (not "when") they do not persist in unbelief (Ro 11:17-23), in which they have persisted for 2,000 years now, and counting.

 

[BBAS 64]

Holy living is not possible if one says the same words as John Piper in that he still does his sins and they are not on him because he does not have them anymore. Listen to the video at minute 3:36. The clip is played of him saying this insane nonsense repeatedly or several times.

Good Day, BH

No matter how many times it is played .... I have addressed this in prior posts.

Care to address the Scripture that with in the context of the NC Holy Living is caused by God?



again my post-

Good Day,

Holy living would be the result of God.... he is the cause.

Better known as regeneration or the new birth and is exclusively part of the NC.


I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.

He puts His spirt in us the the express purpose to cause us to walk in our statues and obey his rules...

This would be another discussion on a different topic.

Hebrews:

Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws into their minds, and write them on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall not teach, each one his neighbor and each one his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest. For I will be merciful toward their iniquities, and I will remember their sins no more.” In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

New heart God writes His law on it... = New desires

We no longer have to teach our neighbor "Know the Lord" ... they will know him and desire Him based upon his work of "putting and writing"

That is His purpose in doing His work, and His purposes can not fail.

In Him,

Bill

 

[Clare73]

Romans 4:9-12 KJV
Romans 4:16 KJV

However, the above do not present "rightiousness imputed onto a Christian based on Abraham’s faith."

Abraham is the "father" of those who believe (the seed) because believers in the promise (Ge 15:5, seed; Jesus Christ, Gal 3:16) are spiritually in Christ, who is the seed of Abraham, thereby making believers the spiritual seed of Abraham, inheriting the promises to Abraham (Gal 3:29).

Being the "father" of those who believe does not mean righteousness is imputed to the Christian based on Abraham's faith.
The NT is abundantly clear that the righteousness of the born again is only from God, and only by their faith (Ro 1:17) in the blood (atonement) of Jesus Christ (Ro 3:21-25), not by Abraham's faith.

"Now a righteousness from God has been made known. . .This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe (in Jesus Christ). . .God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement through faith in his blood (not based on Abraham's faith)." (Ro 3:21-25)

 

[Clare73]

1) ‘And in your seed all the families of the earth shall be blessed.’ Acts 3:25-26
2) Christ redeemed us that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles; Gal 3:14
3) And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise. Gal 3:25-29

1) In Christ (Abraham's seed), all the nations of the earth shall be blessed.

2) The blessing of Abraham is the Holy Spirit (Gal 3:14, Eph 1:13, Ac 2:33, Ac 2:39) and righteousness from God through faith in Jesus Christ (Ro 4:1-5, Ro 4:9-11).

3) It is only by being of (in) Christ; i.e., through faith in his person and atoning work (blood, Ro 3:25), who is the seed of Abraham, that we are the spiritual seed of Abraham, and heirs according to the promise (of an everlasting possession; i.e., heavenly inheritance).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Good Day, BH

No matter how many times it is played .... I have addressed this in prior posts.

Care to address the Scripture that with in the context of the NC Holy Living is caused by God?



again my post-

Good Day,

Holy living would be the result of God.... he is the cause.

Better known as regeneration or the new birth and is exclusively part of the NC.


I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.

He puts His spirt in us the the express purpose to cause us to walk in our statues and obey his rules...

This would be another discussion on a different topic.

Hebrews:

Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws into their minds, and write them on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall not teach, each one his neighbor and each one his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest. For I will be merciful toward their iniquities, and I will remember their sins no more.” In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

New heart God writes His law on it... = New desires

We no longer have to teach our neighbor "Know the Lord" ... they will know him and desire Him based upon his work of "putting and writing"

That is His purpose in doing His work, and His purposes can not fail.

In Him,

Bill

Again, this does not mean you can sin and still be saved. Those believers who did wonderful works in Christ name were told to depart from Jesus because they also worked iniquity or sin in Matthew 7:22-23. The context is that they did not do what Jesus said (Matthew 7:26-27). Obviously if one believes they can ”do sin” and they are not on them because he/she believes they don’t have them anymore is turning God’s grace into a license for sin or immorality (Jude 1:4). For what is the difference between justifying a smaller level of sin vs. justifying larger amounts of sin? Remember, it only took one sin for the fall to happen. Paul says, be not deceived, the unrighteous will not inherit the Kingdom of God. One cannot do evil and good at the same time. One cannot serve two masters.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

1) In Christ (your seed), all the nations of the earth shall be blessed.

2) The blessing of Abraham is the Holy Spirit (Gal 3:14, Eph 1:13, Ac 2:33, Ac 2:39) and righteousness from God through faith in Jesus Christ (Ro 4:1-5, Ro 4:9-11).

3) It is only by being of (in) Christ; i.e., through faith in his person and atoning work (blood, Ro 3:25), who is the seed of Abraham, that we are the spiritual seed of Abraham, and heirs according to the promise (of an everlasting possession; i.e., heavenly inheritance).

Paul says, be not deceived, the unrighteous shall not inherit the Kingdom of God.
Attached in context, Paul lists those who do certain sins. So no. It’s not just a belief alone in Jesus that will save a person.
Yes, we are first saved initially by a faith alone (belief alone) but that is not the case when we continue in God’s plan of salvation in the Sanctification of the Holy Spirit (2 Thessalonians 2:13 cf. Galatians 6:8-9, Romans 8:13, Hebrews 12:14).

Also, if we do not keep His commandments and we say we know Him, we are are a liar and the truth is not in us (1 John 2:4).
For keeping His commands is how we can have an assurance that we know Jesus (1 John 2:3, cf. John 14:23).
He that has the Son, has life, and he that does not have the Son does not have life (1 John 5:12).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Good Day, BH

Joh 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

Believe in Jesus is two fold here. Yes, this belief in Jesus starts off as a belief alone in Jesus for salvation and believing the gospel message in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 in that Christ died for our sins, He was buried, and risen the third day for our salvation, but a belief in the Son or Jesus also includes believing everything He taught, said, and did, too. If we come to reject the words of Jesus in how He taught how sin can destroy our souls (Matthew 5:28-30, Matthew 6:15, Matthew 12:37, Matthew 25:31-46, Luke 9:62) then we are not truly believing in Jesus anymore. Remember, Jesus said if we do not receive His words, those words will judge us on the last day (John 12:48).

And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed. But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God.”

Right, so then why would Piper say, ”I still do them [sins]”? It sounds like a contradiction of this part of John 3:19-21.
According to John 3:20, it says, “every one that doeth evil hateth the light,”

What would cause a man to leave the Darkness he loves, and come to walk in the Light he hates?

If they discovered the truth in the Bible that their soul can be condemned by committing sin whereby they would then have to truly face the fear of God. In other words, if they truly meditate on how their soul could be thrown into hell, and they truly believed that as Scripture teaches, then they will hate the darkness in order to preserve their own soul and the soul of others.

 

[AbbaLove]

Everybody has a theology. Even atheists. They may not realize it, or be able to describe it adequately, but they have it.​

Apparently his posts are directly inspired by the Holy Spirit and therefore his posts are not based on Christian theology? His [renewed] mind might be such that he actually believes the majority of posts by other Christians (than himself) are partially founded on denominational Christian theology; whereas, his posts are influenced by the Holy Spirit and not by man's denominational Christian [doctrinal] theology?

Would be insightful to know if he believes his Christian fellowship is void of Christian theology. Perhaps he has been fortunate to find a near perfect fellowship of Christians that have little or no need of his correction. He has a special Gifting that's not of his own doing.

I don’t have a theology! And Christians are given the gift of discernment by the Holy Spirit according to the gospel, 1 Corinthians 12:10 KJV​

Do you realize you come across as if your supernatural Gift of Discernment in understanding scripture is superior to that of other Christians posting on this thread. Is that possibly a reason why you are quick to correct their understanding of His Word ... (John 1:1-3 - John 1:14)

 

[BBAS 64]

Believe in Jesus is two fold here. Yes, this belief in Jesus starts off as a belief alone in Jesus for salvation and believing the gospel message in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 in that Christ died for our sins, He was buried, and risen the third day for our salvation, but a belief in the Son or Jesus also includes believing everything He taught, said, and did, too. If we come to reject the words of Jesus in how He taught how sin can destroy our souls (Matthew 5:28-30, Matthew 6:15, Matthew 12:37, Matthew 25:31-46, Luke 9:62) then we are not truly believing in Jesus anymore. Remember, Jesus said if we do not receive His words, those words will judge us on the last day (John 12:48).


Right, so then why would Piper say, ”I still do them [sins]”? It sounds like a contradiction of this part of John 3:19-21.
According to John 3:20, it says, “every one that doeth evil hateth the light,”



If they discovered the truth in the Bible that their soul can be condemned by committing sin whereby they would then have to truly face the fear of God. In other words, if they truly meditate on how their soul could be thrown into hell, and they truly believed that as Scripture teaches, then they will hate the darkness in order to preserve their own soul and the soul of others.

Good day,

Here you go Piper in his own words:

This Is the Judgment: Light Has Come into the World

Jesus didn't come to a neutral world. He came to those already dead and guilty to make some alive and free.

www.desiringgod.org

I asked -

What would cause a man to leave the Darkness he loves, and come to walk in the Light he hates?

You said-

If they discovered the truth (AKA LIGHT which they hate) in the Bible that their soul can be condemned by committing sin (their deeds are evil) whereby they would then have to truly face the fear of God. In other words, if they truly meditate on how their soul could be thrown into hell (AKA darkness which they Love), and they truly believed that as Scripture teaches, ( to them that are perishing pure foolishness) then they will hate the darkness in order to preserve their own soul and the soul of others.


Nope that does not work… they hate light and love Darkness, care to try again?

The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it, every inclination of the thoughts of their hearts was only evil continually.


Kind of like asking a Lion to eat grass.

In Him

Bill