Justification and Sanctification ?

[Mark Quayle]

If God is the one who determines who is saved and not saved, then… “Yes.”
Man is not responsible for their ultimate fate according to Calvinism.
It’s called UNconditional Election for a reason. They are not elected based on any conditions within the individual.

Do they not, willingly and forcefully, choose their own damnation?

The elect, on the other hand, are by the unspeakable love and mercy of God chosen unconditionally, not because THEY chose well, but because they could not, because they would not. Helpless. GRACE. Unconditional Election is also Grace.

 

[Clare73]

It’s not a rule, it’s common basic sense.

Basic common sense is not the rule of Scripture. . .

For it's certainly not basic common sense that a king would give his one and only son over to death to pay the penalty of those in rebellion against the king.

The text is the rule of Scripture. . .and the "rule of common sense" is nowhere in the text of Scripture.

If one tells others they will sin again as per 1 John 1:8, then they are intentionally setting out to sin again by that very statement.

No such rule in Scripture. . .pure fancy of man's construction.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

John MacArthur makes very clear in his sermons what is meant by holy living.



John MacArthur is an expository preacher, one of the best out there; and so, he explains in detail by Scripture what is meant by "repent," "believe," "salvation," etc.



To understand the differences, you have to actually listen to his sermons.



"1 John 1:6-10" is not used by John MacArthur, or other conservative Calvinists like John MacArthur, as a license for sin, but there are many liberal Christians who will quote only "1 John 8-10" and use it in such a way as to become a license for immorality. I agree.



Good context. The true believer will follow Lord Jesus into a sanctified life of righteousness and love, the Spirit leading our faith as we follow by faith.



In that section that you responded to, I did say that if a person sins and confesses he is forgiven. Here it is but bolding and brackets are mind to show you where I did say "confessed.".

<<<
setst777 said:
I think most Arminians and Wesleyans would similarly agree that, although Arminians and Wesleyans do not believe faith is guaranteed, they do believe salvation is guaranteed for those who do remain in the faith, living a sanctified life onto God. Since this is the case, then any sins that a true believer may commit in weakness cannot cause him to lose his salvation. Why? Because sins that a true believer commits {{{and confessed}}} are forgiven by God - guaranteed, according to God's promise. God will cleanse from all sins the true believer who commits sins in weakness or error.
>>>



This is a good text against Calvinism. Those who deliberately sin against God are dead in sin and will be condemned. However, this prodigal son who was lost and dead, repented, and his Father was merciful and forgave him before his son even had time to confess his sins before his Father, because the Father was likely already aware the son was repentant. This is a wonderful parable about God's love and mercy even for those who have deliberately rejected him to live in sin, that God, in mercy, will still grant (allow) a person who rejected the faith to repent and return to Him.



Many people say many things.



At the time they sinned, God had not yet provided the ransom for all sins, although God did prophecy of that Redeemer to come to Adam and Eve. So, since God did provide, in his mercy, a temporary covering for them made of animal skin, my feeling is that, after the redemption was paid for, Lord Jesus saved them.

This article (below) sums up pretty well what I have already discovered on my own through research and by talking to Calvinists on forums since 2011.

Calvinism Is A License For Immorality Reformed

www.evangelicaloutreach.org

In other words, this article I just discovered today only confirms my own research, study, and experience.
I did not need this article to confirm what I already know.

Side Note:

Of course, there are going to be varying degrees of interpretation by Calvinists on certain verses that justify sin. Some Calvinists shockingly believe Romans 7:14-24 is talking about his old life before he became a Christian. But this is not the majority view in my experience as to this date.

 

[biblelesson]

This article (below) sums up pretty well what I have already discovered on my own through research and by talking to Calvinists on forums since 2011.

Calvinism Is A License For Immorality Reformed

www.evangelicaloutreach.org

In other words, this article I just discovered today only confirms my own research, study, and experience.
I did not need this article to confirm what I already know.

Side Note:

Of course, there are going to be varying degrees of interpretation by Calvinists on certain verses that justify sin. Some Calvinists shockingly believe Romans 7:14-24 is talking about his old life before he became a Christian. But this is not the majority view in my experience as to this date.

I read the article posted, and the individual that opposes Calvinist has made some mistakes in his writing while he talks against the Calvinist teachings. He provides no scriptures to back up why the Calvinist are wrong, he just makes blatant claims.

One confusing claim is the statement about David where he says, “1. Calvinism will teach that King David stayed saved while he remained in unrepentant adultery and murder. NOTE: Calvinists do not say David was never really saved to begin with because he turned to such wickedness. They will never say David had a false conversion because he backslid like he did. Hence, their version of grace is really a license for immorality just like any other eternal security teacher. It is not necessary to proceed to any other proof, though more can be offered.

The writer states the Calvinist never said David was never really saved in the first place because he turned to such wickedness, implying David’s salvation was based on salvation today under the New Covenant, which is absolutely false. However, King David committed sin, yet he repented, made many sacrifices, many confessions of wrong, many prayers, many supplications, many psalms, and God said David was a man after His own heart, Acts13:22 KJV.

So the writer did not explain what he was talking about by saying David was never really saved in the first place, and seemed to have no knowledge of the Mosiac law in the Old Testament King David was under in comparison to the New Testament we are under today. Stark differences. No one under the Old Testament could be saved although they stood righteous before God through the keeping of the law. But all who died under the old law, and were righteous, went to Abraham’s bosom, and had to await Jesus’s death on the cross, and His descent to the lower parts of the earth, Ephesians 4:9 KJV, to bring them out. Those were the graves that were opened when Jesus died.


Another statement the writer say the Calvinist makes, “just like any other once saved always saved teacher.” The writer says this statement is wrong with no follow up scripture. There are plenty of scriptures in the gospel teachings of Paul and the other Apostles that says this statement is true. Although “once saved always saved” is a parrot statement, what is the basis for it though? Those truly saved will not turn away!

I’m pointing these things out because we have to let people be! We cannot defend one teacher over another teacher, or we become like 1 Corinthians 3:4 KJV, 1 Corinthians 3:7-8 KJV.

The Bible says there is contention, but at least Christ is preached, Philippians 1:15-18 KJV.

The reason it doesn’t matter is because knowledge is given by the Holy Ghost, not man. And where Jesus is taught, truth is imparted to those of a sincere heart anyway. Jesus says my sheep knows my voice.

We have to study ourselves; to show ourselves approved rightly dividing the word of truth, 2 Timothy 2:15 KJV.

We are wrong to pit one teacher against another.

 

[Clare73]

I read the article posted, and the individual that opposes Calvinist has made some mistakes in his writing while he talks against the Calvinist teachings. He provides no scriptures to back up why the Calvinist are wrong, he just makes blatant claims.

One confusing claim is the statement about David where he says, “1. Calvinism will teach that King David stayed saved while he remained in unrepentant adultery and murder. NOTE: Calvinists do not say David was never really saved to begin with because he turned to such wickedness. They will never say David had a false conversion because he backslid like he did. Hence, their version of grace is really a license for immorality just like any other eternal security teacher. It is not necessary to proceed to any other proof, though more can be offered.

The writer states the Calvinist never said David was never really saved in the first place because he turned to such wickedness, implying David’s salvation was based on salvation today under the New Covenant, which is absolutely false. However, King David committed sin, yet he repented, made many sacrifices, many confessions of wrong, many prayers, many supplications, many psalms, and God said David was a man after His own heart, Acts13:22 KJV.

So the writer did not explain what he was talking about by saying David was never really saved in the first place, and seemed to have no knowledge of the Mosiac law in the Old Testament King David was under in comparison to the New Testament we are under today. Stark differences. No one under the Old Testament could be saved although they stood righteous before God through the keeping of the law. But all who died under the old law, and were righteous, went to Abraham’s bosom, and had to await Jesus’s death on the cross, and His descent into hell to bring them out. Those were the graves that were opened when Jesus died.


Another statement the writer say the Calvinist makes, “just like any other once saved always saved teacher.” The writer says this statement is wrong with no follow up scripture. There are plenty of scriptures in the gospel teachings of Paul and the other Apostles that says this statement is true. Although “once saved always saved” is a parrot statement, what is the basis for it though? Those truly saved will not turn away!

I’m pointing these things out because we have to let people be! We cannot defend one teacher over another teacher, or we become like 1 Corinthians 3:4 KJV, 1 Corinthians 3:7-8 KJV.

The Bible says there is contention, but at least Christ is preached, Philippians 1:15-18 KJV.

The reason it doesn’t matter is because knowledge is given by the Holy Ghost, not man. And where Jesus is taught, truth is imparted to those of a sincere heart anyway. Jesus says my sheep knows my voice.

We have to study ourselves; to show ourselves approved rightly dividing the word of truth, 2 Timothy 2:15 KJV.

We are wrong to pit one teacher against another.

Did Paul not pit himself against the Judaizing teachers?

 

[biblelesson]

Did Paul not pit himself against the Judaizing teachers?

Your question lacks understanding, and no, Paul did not pit himself against Judiazimg teachers. That’s not what happened.

Paul was given his Apostlship by Christ to preach the gospel to the Gentiles during the times when the Jews would oppose the good news. It was the Jews that pitted themselves against Paul and the gospel, Acts 13:45 KJV. In the book of Acts and Paul’s epistles he gives an account of the struggle and persecution he received from the Jews, and why we must not follow them as they were not willing to accept Christ as our means to salvation; they remained under the law.

We are warned to stay away from certain teachings and if man does not obey the word, to note that man, and have no company with him, but admonish him as a brother, 2 Thessalonians 3:14-15 KJV.

We are not to pit one teacher against another, we are to avoid strife, Titus 3:9 KJV.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I read the article posted, and the individual that opposes Calvinist has made some mistakes in his writing while he talks against the Calvinist teachings. He provides no scriptures to back up why the Calvinist are wrong, he just makes blatant claims.

One confusing claim is the statement about David where he says, “1. Calvinism will teach that King David stayed saved while he remained in unrepentant adultery and murder. NOTE: Calvinists do not say David was never really saved to begin with because he turned to such wickedness. They will never say David had a false conversion because he backslid like he did. Hence, their version of grace is really a license for immorality just like any other eternal security teacher. It is not necessary to proceed to any other proof, though more can be offered.

The writer states the Calvinist never said David was never really saved in the first place because he turned to such wickedness, implying David’s salvation was based on salvation today under the New Covenant, which is absolutely false. However, King David committed sin, yet he repented, made many sacrifices, many confessions of wrong, many prayers, many supplications, many psalms, and God said David was a man after His own heart, Acts13:22 KJV.

So the writer did not explain what he was talking about by saying David was never really saved in the first place, and seemed to have no knowledge of the Mosiac law in the Old Testament King David was under in comparison to the New Testament we are under today. Stark differences. No one under the Old Testament could be saved although they stood righteous before God through the keeping of the law. But all who died under the old law, and were righteous, went to Abraham’s bosom, and had to await Jesus’s death on the cross, and His descent into hell to bring them out. Those were the graves that were opened when Jesus died.


Another statement the writer say the Calvinist makes, “just like any other once saved always saved teacher.” The writer says this statement is wrong with no follow up scripture. There are plenty of scriptures in the gospel teachings of Paul and the other Apostles that says this statement is true. Although “once saved always saved” is a parrot statement, what is the basis for it though? Those truly saved will not turn away!

I’m pointing these things out because we have to let people be! We cannot defend one teacher over another teacher, or we become like 1 Corinthians 3:4 KJV, 1 Corinthians 3:7-8 KJV.

The Bible says there is contention, but at least Christ is preached, Philippians 1:15-18 KJV.

The reason it doesn’t matter is because knowledge is given by the Holy Ghost, not man. And where Jesus is taught, truth is imparted to those of a sincere heart anyway. Jesus says my sheep knows my voice.

We have to study ourselves; to show ourselves approved rightly dividing the word of truth, 2 Timothy 2:15 KJV.

We are wrong to pit one teacher against another.

The idea of your view of sin and salvation in the Old Covenant is false.
While they needed to keep the Law, it was not the keeping solely of the Old Law alone that saved them.

#1. They were also justified by faith in the Old Testament.
Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
Habakkuk 2:4 states that just shall live by faith.
Hebrews 11 also states that the great men of God having faith (Including Moses).

#2. Second, God warned Adam if he ate of the wrong tree he would die (Genesis 2:17).
But as we know from reading the story, Adam and Eve did not die physically the day they ate of the wrong tree.
Adam and Eve died spiritually the day they ate of the wrong tree.

Jesus also taught under the time of the Old Covenant taught that sin leads to spiritual death.

In Luke 15:24, and Luke 15:32, we learn that when the prodigal son came home and sought forgiveness with his father, we know that his father said his son was “dead” and he is “alive AGAIN.” The parable is speaking in spiritual terms. So when the prodigal son was living it up with prostitutes (Luke 15:30), he was “dead” spiritually, but when he came back home and sought forgiveness with his father, he became “alive AGAIN” spiritually. The only way a person can be “alive AGAIN” is if they were once alive a first time spiritually. James 5:19-20 expresses a similar truth, as well.

Jesus said, ”Let the dead bury their dead” (Luke 9:60).
This again was said during the time of the Old Covenant.
So this means that they were spiritually dead while they were yet alive.

King David died spiritually when he committed his sins of adultery and murder, and he needed to confess and forsake those sins to have mercy (Proverbs 28:13).

So yeah, what you say is not true.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I read the article posted, and the individual that opposes Calvinist has made some mistakes in his writing while he talks against the Calvinist teachings. He provides no scriptures to back up why the Calvinist are wrong, he just makes blatant claims.

One confusing claim is the statement about David where he says, “1. Calvinism will teach that King David stayed saved while he remained in unrepentant adultery and murder. NOTE: Calvinists do not say David was never really saved to begin with because he turned to such wickedness. They will never say David had a false conversion because he backslid like he did. Hence, their version of grace is really a license for immorality just like any other eternal security teacher. It is not necessary to proceed to any other proof, though more can be offered.

The writer states the Calvinist never said David was never really saved in the first place because he turned to such wickedness, implying David’s salvation was based on salvation today under the New Covenant, which is absolutely false. However, King David committed sin, yet he repented, made many sacrifices, many confessions of wrong, many prayers, many supplications, many psalms, and God said David was a man after His own heart, Acts13:22 KJV.

So the writer did not explain what he was talking about by saying David was never really saved in the first place, and seemed to have no knowledge of the Mosiac law in the Old Testament King David was under in comparison to the New Testament we are under today. Stark differences. No one under the Old Testament could be saved although they stood righteous before God through the keeping of the law. But all who died under the old law, and were righteous, went to Abraham’s bosom, and had to await Jesus’s death on the cross, and His descent to the lower parts of the earth, Ephesians 4:9 KJV, to bring them out. Those were the graves that were opened when Jesus died.


Another statement the writer say the Calvinist makes, “just like any other once saved always saved teacher.” The writer says this statement is wrong with no follow up scripture. There are plenty of scriptures in the gospel teachings of Paul and the other Apostles that says this statement is true. Although “once saved always saved” is a parrot statement, what is the basis for it though? Those truly saved will not turn away!

I’m pointing these things out because we have to let people be! We cannot defend one teacher over another teacher, or we become like 1 Corinthians 3:4 KJV, 1 Corinthians 3:7-8 KJV.

The Bible says there is contention, but at least Christ is preached, Philippians 1:15-18 KJV.

The reason it doesn’t matter is because knowledge is given by the Holy Ghost, not man. And where Jesus is taught, truth is imparted to those of a sincere heart anyway. Jesus says my sheep knows my voice.

We have to study ourselves; to show ourselves approved rightly dividing the word of truth, 2 Timothy 2:15 KJV.

We are wrong to pit one teacher against another.

From John Calvin’s commentary:

“For the example of David shows that the elect, although regenerated by God's Spirit, not only sin to a small extent, but, as I have said, plunge into the very lowest abyss. David became a perfidious homicide, and a traitor to the army of God; then that wretched king fell into a series of crimes: yet he failed in only one thing, and showed that God's grace was only suffocated within him, and not altogether extinguished” (Calvin's Commentary on the Scripture for Ezekiel 18:24).​

John Calvin (Who is the creator of Calvinism) basically is saying that David still had grace even when he had committed his sins of adultery and murder because he said God’s grace was not entirely extinguished entirely from David. To say that the righteous and unrighteous both went to the same place in Sheol is a misconnect. There was a compartment for the righteous (Abraham’s bosom) and a compartment for the unrighteous (The place of torment that the rich man went to). So the way they lived back in the Old Testament did determine which place they would end up in the Old Testament.

1 John 3:11-12
11 ”For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.
12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.”

 

[timothyu]

Paul’s epistles he gives an account of the struggle and persecution he received from the Jews, and why we must not follow them as they were not willing to accept Christ as our means to salvation; they remained under the law.

As Saul he persecuted Jews who followed Jesus in order to protect the old ways. As Paul he drew a line between Jews of the old ways and the teachings of Jesus, a Jew, in effect accomplishing the same thing in keeping those of the old ways pure. Moving Christianity towards the Gentiles left the Jews to continue on as they were, their previous culture pure. As Christianity progressed ties with Jewish tradition were modified. So in the end Saul's original goal was reached.

 

[Clare73]

Your question lacks understanding, and no, Paul did not pit himself against Judiazimg teachers. That’s not what happened.

Paul was given his Apostlship by Christ to preach the gospel to the Gentiles during the times when the Jews would oppose the good news. It was the Jews that pitted themselves against Paul and the gospel, Acts 13:45 KJV. In the book of Acts and Paul’s epistles he gives an account of the struggle and persecution he received from the Jews, and why we must not follow them as they were not willing to accept Christ as our means to salvation; they remained under the law.

We are warned to stay away from certain teachings and if man does not obey the word, to note that man, and have no company with him, but admonish him as a brother, 2 Thessalonians 3:14-15 KJV.

We are not to pit one teacher against another, we are to avoid strife, Titus 3:9 KJV.

But he called them false brothers (Gal 2:4).

The Judaizers were professing Christian Jews, whom he opposed publicly and verbally.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I read the article posted, and the individual that opposes Calvinist has made some mistakes in his writing while he talks against the Calvinist teachings. He provides no scriptures to back up why the Calvinist are wrong, he just makes blatant claims.

One confusing claim is the statement about David where he says, “1. Calvinism will teach that King David stayed saved while he remained in unrepentant adultery and murder. NOTE: Calvinists do not say David was never really saved to begin with because he turned to such wickedness. They will never say David had a false conversion because he backslid like he did. Hence, their version of grace is really a license for immorality just like any other eternal security teacher. It is not necessary to proceed to any other proof, though more can be offered.

The writer states the Calvinist never said David was never really saved in the first place because he turned to such wickedness, implying David’s salvation was based on salvation today under the New Covenant, which is absolutely false. However, King David committed sin, yet he repented, made many sacrifices, many confessions of wrong, many prayers, many supplications, many psalms, and God said David was a man after His own heart, Acts13:22 KJV.

So the writer did not explain what he was talking about by saying David was never really saved in the first place, and seemed to have no knowledge of the Mosiac law in the Old Testament King David was under in comparison to the New Testament we are under today. Stark differences. No one under the Old Testament could be saved although they stood righteous before God through the keeping of the law. But all who died under the old law, and were righteous, went to Abraham’s bosom, and had to await Jesus’s death on the cross, and His descent to the lower parts of the earth, Ephesians 4:9 KJV, to bring them out. Those were the graves that were opened when Jesus died.


Another statement the writer say the Calvinist makes, “just like any other once saved always saved teacher.” The writer says this statement is wrong with no follow up scripture. There are plenty of scriptures in the gospel teachings of Paul and the other Apostles that says this statement is true. Although “once saved always saved” is a parrot statement, what is the basis for it though? Those truly saved will not turn away!

I’m pointing these things out because we have to let people be! We cannot defend one teacher over another teacher, or we become like 1 Corinthians 3:4 KJV, 1 Corinthians 3:7-8 KJV.

The Bible says there is contention, but at least Christ is preached, Philippians 1:15-18 KJV.

The reason it doesn’t matter is because knowledge is given by the Holy Ghost, not man. And where Jesus is taught, truth is imparted to those of a sincere heart anyway. Jesus says my sheep knows my voice.

We have to study ourselves; to show ourselves approved rightly dividing the word of truth, 2 Timothy 2:15 KJV.

We are wrong to pit one teacher against another.

Saul is another great example of how you can be right with God at one time and then fall away from Him.

“But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.” (1 Samuel 16:14).

Keep in mind that when Saul first became king, he was told,

”“And the Spirit of the LORD will come upon thee, and thou shalt prophesy with them, and shalt be turned into another man.” (1 Samuel 10:6).

When the Lord departed from Saul because of his unfaithfulness: Saul ended up consulting the dark arts of witchcraft and he committed suicide (self murder) in the end. Saul’s heart became evil and he departed from the Lord. But that does not mean he did not start off correctly with God. That is what you fail to understand.

Sin is what can harden a person’s heart and depart from the living God. Why would sin make a person to depart from God? Because if one abides in sin and they do not confess and forsake such sins, they are spiritually dead. This is also what happened to the many Israelites who were rescued by God to come out of slavery from Egypt. Their physical death falling in the wilderness on account of their sin was representative of how they were spiritually dead based on their wrong choices involving God.

Hebrews 3:12-19 says,
12 “Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.
16 For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.
17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?
18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?
19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.”

 

[biblelesson]

The idea of your view of sin and salvation in the Old Covenant is false.
While they needed to keep the Law, it was not the keeping solely of the Old Law alone that saved them.

#1. They were also justified by faith in the Old Testament.
Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
Habakkuk 2:4 states that just shall live by faith.
Hebrews 11 also states that the great men of God having faith (Including Moses).

#2. Second, Adam and Eve died the day they ate of the wrong tree, but they did not physically die that day.
They died spiritually.
Jesus also taught under the time of the Old Covenant taught that sin leads to spiritual death.

In Luke 15:24, and Luke 15:32, we learn that when the prodigal son came home and sought forgiveness with his father, we know that his father said his son was “dead” and he is “alive AGAIN.” The parable is speaking in spiritual terms. So when the prodigal son was living it up with prostitutes (Luke 15:30), he was “dead” spiritually, but when he came back home and sought forgiveness with his father, he became “alive AGAIN” spiritually. The only way a person can be “alive AGAIN” is if they were once alive a first time spiritually. James 5:19-20 expresses a similar truth, as well. So yeah, what you say is not true.

Jesus said, ”Let the dead bury their dead” (Luke 9:60).
This again was said during the time of the Old Covenant.
So this means that they were spiritually dead while they were yet alive.

So what you say is not true. King David died spiritually when he committed his sins of adultery and murder, and he needed to confess and forsake those sins to have mercy (Proverbs 28:13).

My main statement about forgiveness and repentance was stated when I said, “However, King David committed sin, yet he repented, made many sacrifices, many confessions of wrong, many prayers, many supplications, many psalms, and God said David was a man after His own heart, Acts13:22 KJV“ which is what you are pointing out.

Abraham’s faith was counted for righteousness for the purpose of the new covenant promises, so that the Gentiles could be saved by faith who had no law, which righteousness by faith was established 430 years before the law, Galatians 3:17 KJV. That is the mystery spoken about in the gospel, Colossians 1:26-27 KJV, Galatians 3:14 KJV. This faith promise did not come into force until Christ died on the cross, Hebrews 9:16-17 KJV. In the mean time God established the Law under Moses where the people had to sacrificed animals and adhere to covenant laws to stand righteousness before God.

You’re not understanding the meaning of the prodigal son. Jesus gave this parable about the prodigal son in regards to repentance and forgiveness of sins in relation to entering into the “Kingdom” of the Father by faith in Christ under the new covenant that would be in force after His death.

 

[Mark Quayle]

One confusing claim is the statement about David where he says, “1. Calvinism will teach that King David stayed saved while he remained in unrepentant adultery and murder. NOTE: Calvinists do not say David was never really saved to begin with because he turned to such wickedness. They will never say David had a false conversion because he backslid like he did. Hence, their version of grace is really a license for immorality just like any other eternal security teacher. It is not necessary to proceed to any other proof, though more can be offered.

Exactly.

His thinking is like the rest, that assume the state in which one finds oneself at any one moment is his eternal state. Not so. God alone knows who are the Elect, and just about all we know for sure on that matter, is that God will bring to completion whatever he set out to do. If a person "makes it to Heaven", that person was by definition one of the Elect. But that is looking at it from the result. The other look at it is that God will see to it. David was unrepentant for a long time, just as I have also been, more often than I want to say. But GOD brought David to repentance.

In spite of all the experiential claims as to when a person became saved / regenerated / indwelled by the Spirit of God / etc., only God knows when it happened. So he gives us the evidences, but those can be false. ONLY GOD KNOWS, in the end.

THEREFORE, it is only from the temporal point of view, that @Bible Highlighter expresses the rules and their implications that he thinks should apply to the Reformed/Calvinist view of David. The end proves the truth of what/who he was, in God's eyes. If, when I find myself in Heaven, I find @Bible Highlighter there, it will be proof that he too, in spite of his grave errors and self-deception and self-determinism, was one of the Elect.

 

[biblelesson]

But he called them false brothers (Gal 2:4).

The Judaizers were professing Christian Jews, whom he opposed publicly and verbally.

Clare73, Apostle Paul was preaching the gospel and being led by the Holy Spirit that ordered them not to stop. When Apostle Paul encounter those that opposed the gospel, he had no choice but to confront them because the were trying to stop the work of the gospel spreading. They did not go looking for those who opposed the work of the gospel. They were confronted and persecuted by these people, so Paul and the other Apostles were within their right to point out their false teachings.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Saul is another great example of how you can be right with God at one time and then fall away from Him.

“But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.” (1 Samuel 16:14).

Keep in mind that when Saul first became king, he was told,

”“And the Spirit of the LORD will come upon thee, and thou shalt prophesy with them, and shalt be turned into another man.” (1 Samuel 10:6).

When the Lord departed from Saul because of his unfaithfulness: Saul ended up consulting the dark arts of witchcraft and he committed suicide (self murder) in the end. Saul’s heart became evil and he departed from the Lord. But that does not mean he did not start off correctly with God. That is what you fail to understand.

Sin is what can harden a person’s heart and depart from the living God. Why would sin make a person to depart from God? Because if one abides in sin and they do not confess and forsake such sins, they are spiritually dead. This is also what happened to the many Israelites who were rescued by God to come out of slavery from Egypt. Their physical death falling in the wilderness on account of their sin was representative of how they were spiritually dead based on their wrong choices involving God.

Hebrews 3:12-19 says,
12 “Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.
16 For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.
17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?
18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?
19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.”

Do you honestly think the Spirit of God can't do as it will, without regard to the rules to which we might think it must submit? We know for a fact that the Spirit of God can cause a person to do anything God wants, without it causing that person's conversion or regeneration. Your example of Saul (at least from your point of view) apparently losing his salvation, is meaningless to your argument.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

My main statement about forgiveness and repentance was stated when I said, “However, King David committed sin, yet he repented, made many sacrifices, many confessions of wrong, many prayers, many supplications, many psalms, and God said David was a man after His own heart, Acts13:22 KJV“ which is what you are pointing out.

Yes, this is what led to David having spiritual life again. It does not mean David was saved while he committed his sins of adultery and murder because God would knew in the future he would confess of his sins. God deals with us in real time and not by what we will do in the future. If that was the case, then you would be saved before you even placed faith in Jesus Christ for salvation.

Abraham’s faith was counted for righteousness for the purpose of the new covenant promises, so that the Gentiles could be saved by faith who had no law, which righteousness by faith was established 430 years before the law, Galatians 3:17 KJV. That is the mystery spoken about in the gospel, Colossians 1:26-27 KJV, Galatians 3:14 KJV. This faith promise did not come into force until Christ died on the cross, Hebrews 9:16-17 KJV. In the mean time God established the Law under Moses where the people had to sacrificed animals and adhere to covenant laws to stand righteousness before God.

Again, Moses acted in faith in Hebrews 11 and to say that he was not also justified by faith is a misconnect.
The point was about the promise. The promise first came to Abraham without the Law and not by the Law. The point was to show that the Jews needed to first have faith (belief) in the first aspect of salvation (Which is by God’s grace without works - Ephesians 2:8-9). This is not discount the secondary aspect of salvation that comes afterwards in the Sanctification of the Spirit (Which is to live a holy life by the power of God - See: 2 Thessalonians 2:13, Galatians 6:8-9, Romans 8:13).

You’re not understanding the meaning of the prodigal son. Jesus gave this parable about the prodigal son in regards to repentance and forgiveness of sins in relation to entering into the “Kingdom” of the Father by faith in Christ under the new covenant that would be in force after His death.

No. You are not believing the words “ALIVE AGAIN.”
Besides this same truth is taught in James 5:19-20 (Which you ignored).

James 5:19-20
”Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.”

So if any believer errs from the truth and another believer converts him back to the faith, we are to let that believer (who helped to bring that other back to the faith) that they have converted a sinner from the error of their ways and they have helped to save a soul from death and hide a multitude of sins. So the idea that their sins are just forgiven in the future because of a belief alone in Jesus is false. Why are believers chastised by sin if their future sin is forgiven them? It makes no sense.

The Bible warns against those who turn God’s grace into a license for immorality or sin (Jude 1:4).
That is exactly what people are doing when they say they can sin and still be saved or David was saved while he committed his sins of adultery and murder. Yes, some try to say salvation and sin was not even the same as it is under the New Covenant. They say that there was no concept of salvation in the Old Testament (Which is dumb because there were two compartments in Sheol). It’s inconsistent. Then again, we are living in the last days and men cannot see the warnings Jesus gave us in Matthew 5:28-30, Matthew 6:15, Matthew 12:37, etcetera.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

My main statement about forgiveness and repentance was stated when I said, “However, King David committed sin, yet he repented, made many sacrifices, many confessions of wrong, many prayers, many supplications, many psalms, and God said David was a man after His own heart, Acts13:22 KJV“ which is what you are pointing out.

Abraham’s faith was counted for righteousness for the purpose of the new covenant promises, so that the Gentiles could be saved by faith who had no law, which righteousness by faith was established 430 years before the law, Galatians 3:17 KJV. That is the mystery spoken about in the gospel, Colossians 1:26-27 KJV, Galatians 3:14 KJV. This faith promise did not come into force until Christ died on the cross, Hebrews 9:16-17 KJV. In the mean time God established the Law under Moses where the people had to sacrificed animals and adhere to covenant laws to stand righteousness before God.

You’re not understanding the meaning of the prodigal son. Jesus gave this parable about the prodigal son in regards to repentance and forgiveness of sins in relation to entering into the “Kingdom” of the Father by faith in Christ under the new covenant that would be in force after His death.

Genesis 2:17 where God tells Adam he would die the day he would eat of the wrong tree and yet he did not die physically is proof that Adam died spiritually.

Also, for a New Testament witness:

1 Timothy 5:6
“But she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth.”

So one can be alive physically and yet dead spiritually.

And there is more:

1 Timothy 5:8
”But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.”

1 Timothy 5:8 cannot be in reference to an unbeliever because it says that this person is WORSE THAN AN INFIDEL.
An infidel is an unbeliever. So if a believer provides not for his own he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.
So one can lose salvation on account of sin.
Do not be deceived, the unrighteous will not inherit the Kingdom of God.

 

[biblelesson]

Yes, this is what led to David having spiritual life again. It does not mean David was saved while he committed his sins of adultery and murder because God would knew in the future he would confess of his sins. God deals with us in real time and not by what we will do in the future. If that was the case, then you would be saved before you even placed faith in Jesus Christ for salvation.



Again, Moses acted in faith in Hebrews 11 and to say that he was not also justified by faith is a misconnect.
The point was about the promise. The promise first came to Abraham without the Law and not by the Law. The point was to show that the Jews needed to first have faith (belief) in the first aspect of salvation (Which is by God’s grace without works - Ephesians 2:8-9). This is not discount the secondary aspect of salvation that comes afterwards in the Sanctification of the Spirit (Which is to live a holy life by the power of God - See: 2 Thessalonians 2:13, Galatians 6:8-9, Romans 8:13).


No. You are not believing the words “ALIVE AGAIN.”
Besides this same truth is taught in James 5:19-20 (Which you ignored).

James 5:19-20
”Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.”

So if any believer errs from the truth and another believer converts him back to the faith, we are to let that believer (who helped to bring that other back to the faith) that they have converted a sinner from the error of their ways and they have helped to save a soul from death and hide a multitude of sins. So the idea that their sins are just forgiven in the future because of a belief alone in Jesus is false. Why are believers chastised by sin if their future sin is forgiven them? It makes no sense.

The Bible warns against those who turn God’s grace into a license for immorality or sin (Jude 1:4).
That is exactly what people are doing when they say they can sin and still be saved or David was saved while he committed his sins of adultery and murder. Yes, some try to say salvation and sin was not even the same as it is under the New Covenant. They say that there was no concept of salvation in the Old Testament (Which is dumb because there were two compartments in Sheol). It’s inconsistent. Then again, we are living in the last days and men cannot see the warnings Jesus gave us in Matthew 5:28-30, Matthew 6:15, Matthew 12:37, etcetera.

Bible Highlighter, sometimes we don’t have the full understanding of salvation in Christ Jesus and where sin fits in.

First sin had to be abolished in the world. This is not individual sin, but sin that man is born into, not of themselves, Romans 5:12 KJV, Romans 3:10 KJV

God offered eternal life for all mankind so that all mankind would not have to face the wages of sin, Romans 6:23 KJV. If God had not offered eternal life, no man on earth would have been able to be saved and would have to face hell fire.

So how would God accomplish this? There had to be a sacrifice to save man. Yes, Jesus body, Hebrews 10:5 KJV, and his shed blood, Colossians 1:14 KJV.

On the cross of Christ, God was reconciling the “world” unto himself not imputing their trespasses unto them, 2 Corinthians 5:19 KJV.

So now the above takes care of “sin” that is the nature of sin, the Ademic nature man inherited from Adam, Romans 5:12 KJV.

So now what? Salvation has been set up for everyone in Christ Jesus through the cross; it’s a done deal, Jesus said it is finished, John 19:30 KJV.

So how does the salvation plan already established save us on an individual basis? The faith of Abraham! We are to believe on Christ and through the faith of Abraham and the promises and blessings he received, Galatians 3:8-9 KJV, Galatians 3:14 KJV, righteousness is also inputted onto us, Romans 4:22-25 KJV.

So the question of sin is answered in Christ. The question of forgiveness has been dealt with in Christ. When we believe on Christ we receive a down payment of our inheritance to the Kingdom, Ephesians 1:14 KjV, which is a promise of salvation, Ephesians 1:13 KJV.

So based on God’s salvation plan, there is no more sin, 1 John 3:9 KJV.

We were sinners from the beginning! It’s just that once we come to Christ, God conforms us sinners, who are now saved, to the image of His son through the Holy Spirit, Romans 8:29 KJV.

We are sinners, you, me, your friends, Calvinists, and anybody else, and we are only made righteous in One, that is Christ Jesus.

So sin has been taken care of at the cross. We are now being conformed to the image of Christ by the Spirit. Sometimes the conforming is difficult, but the Bible says we suffer for Christ, and God chastises his children. This is not for punishment, but to build us up to the peaceable fruit of righteousness, Hebrews 12:11 KJV.

If a man or woman chooses not to accept Christ, they forfeit salvation offered to them!

 

[AbbaLove]

We have to study ourselves; to show ourselves approved rightly dividing the word of truth, 2 Timothy 2:15 KJV.

We are wrong to pit one teacher against another.

Invariably is not our studying (more often than not) an attempt to prove or disprove a Christian theology? In so doing don't we intentionally or unintentionally pit one theology against another? Can we not conclude then that neither Armenism or Calvanism is entirely right or wrong? Is GOD restricted to just one theology?

Just as sanctification and justification aren't possible without each other unified ... so too cannot GOD bridge (unifiy) the manmade gap between Calvinism and Armeniism theology. If it was left up to the existing division in religious Christendom no one would might not be considered fit for salvation.

Did Paul not pit himself against the Judaizing teachers?​

Apparently Paul did not consider them (Judaizers) to be spiritually "born again" Messianic Jewish Believers as they still held to the commands of the Mosaic laws as well as their manmade traditions. Thus the.reason why Bible translators referred to them as Judaizers even though they were susposedly {borderline] believers in Yeshuah HaMashiach.

8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you,​

let him be accursed. 9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. (Galatians 1:8-9)​

That's pretty strong language ... "or an angel from heaven" ... but Paul being a former Pharisee was not one too waffle with a watered down gospel to non-Jewish Believers in Jesus Christ nor Jewish Believers in Yeshua HaMashaich.

The Lamb Of GOD became an atoning blood sacrifice to sanctifiy mankind to live a renewed born again life without sin (John 3:5, Titus 3:5) ...

 

[biblelesson]

Invariably is not our studying (more often than not) an attempt to prove or disprove a Christian theology? In so doing don't we intentionally or unintentionally pit one theology against another? Can we not conclude then that neither Armenism or Calvanism is entirely right or wrong? Is GOD restricted to just one theology?

No, our study of the word is in obedience to God! It is God who has determined there is one body, one Spirit, one Lord, one faith, one baptism…, Ephesians 4:4-6 KJV. There is only one gospel and a curse is on those who preach a different gospel, Galatians 1:8-9 KJV. God has determined this, not us!

We are taught through the gospel how to stay obedient to the true gospel. Other theologies, especially of works, block the power of the Holy Spirit that every believer in Christ suppose to receive. If the true gospel is not taught, we cannot receive the power of the Holy Spirit, and we become like those in Galatians 3:1-3 KJV.

We are to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace, Ephesians 4:3 KJV.

Our studying the gospel is not proving or disproving anything, we are simply being obedient. Through God’s word everything has already been proven and disproven and God don’t need us for his glorious truth to be revealed.