Justification and Sanctification ?

[setst777]

Hebrews 10: 16, 17 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws on their hearts, and write them on their minds,” then he adds, “I will remember their sins and their lawless deeds no more.”

The fulfillment of that covenant in in the Millennial Kingdom specifically in God's fulfillment of his promise to Israel, and also the final Eternal State of all believers when all sin will be vanquished forever. As it is now, most of Israel is still in a state of stupor, and even those who possess the Spirit by faith struggle against the misdeeds of the body.

For instance, Paul warns and admonishes Timothy to remain in that which he was taught to be saved:

1 Timothy 4:16 (EWEB) 16 Pay attention to yourself and to your doctrine. Continue in these things, for in doing this you will both save yourself and those who hear [listen to] you.

Keep reading verse 39 starts with a "but" { coordinating conjunction used to connect ideas that contrast.} so you missed the point. I know those silly verse numbers are a pain for contextual understanding I have an ESV that has omitted them helps me read a letter like Hebrews in one sitting like a letter as it was intended to be read.

39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

"Verse 39" is not a doctrinal statement of once saved always saved. Rather, the confidence of the writer to the Hebrews is that "we" including himself, are not of them who draw back unto perdition. The Scriptures give many warnings, admonition, teaching, and examples to the Church of those who were in the faith but fell away. The writer of Hebrews gives the same warning to the "we" in the Book of Hebrews as follows:

Hebrews 6:11 We desire that each one of you may show the same diligence to the fullness of hope even to the end, 12 that you won’t be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and perseverance inherited The Promises.

Hebrews 3:12-15 (EWEB) 12 Beware, brothers and sisters, lest perhaps there might be in any one of you an evil heart of unbelief, in falling away from the living God; 13 but exhort one another day by day, so long as it is called “today”, lest anyone of you be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence firm to the end, 15 while it is said, “Today if you will hear his voice, do not harden your hearts, as in the rebellion.” [Psalm 95:7-8]

Hebrews 4:11 (EWEB) 11 Let us therefore give diligence to enter into that Rest, lest anyone fall after the same example of disobedience.

Hebrews 4:1 (EWEB) Let us fear therefore, lest perhaps anyone of you should seem to have come short of a promise of entering into his Rest.

Hebrews 6:11-12 (EWEB) 11 We desire that each one of you may show the same diligence to the fullness of hope even to the end, 12 that you won’t be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and perseverance inherited the promises.

The writer would not have written those warnings to the Christian brothers if they were guaranteed to remain saved.

 

[ladodgers6]

Again, if you believe in Calvinism, then you are led to the view of Determinism. In Calvinism: God says who is saved and not saved ultimately and that would include them no longer sinning to a degree that many Calvinists would be considered wrong (And would qualify them as living holy to God). So God can stop people from sinning according to Calvinism because it is a part of the salvation package, right? So God is the One who is ultimately responsible for the change to happen. In Calvinism: He is the puppet master and the One who calls all the shots in whether men can sin or not.

But that’s not what the Bible teaches.
God gets angry at the wicked (Psalms 7:11).

This is conjecture and caricature of Classical Calvinism. So, let me ask you this, are the ungodly justified by Faith or by works?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

" 1 John 1:7" specifically states that:
"if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.”

The "light" is referring to the Spirit we are to walk in to have life:

Walking in the Spirit is doing loving things like loving your brother, and your neighbor, and cultivating the fruits of the Spirit in Galatians 5:22-23. So in a way your are correct but it is not as precise or detailed. Walking in the Spirit mentioned 1 John 1:7 is defined by the indirect wording given to us 1 John 2:9-11.

Walking in the light = Loving your brother.

1 John 2:9-11
9 ”He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.
10 He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.
11 But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.”

Notice:

Verse 9 says the person who says they are in the light and yet they hate their brother is in darkness.
Verse 10 says that the person who loves his brother abides in the light and there is no occasion of stumbling in him. Meaning, if we are loving our brother, there is nothing on the inside of us that can make us stumble into sin (while we are loving our brother).
Verse 11 says that the person who hates his brother is in darkness and WALKS IN DARKNESS, etcetera. So it ties in abidign in the light and walking in darkness as a contrast. So the opposite of walking in darkness (Hating your brother) is walking in the light… which is loving your brother.

Therefore, 1 John 1:7 is saying you have to love your brother as the CONDITION to have the blood of Jesus Christ cleanse you from all sin.
Yes, we are first saved by a belief alone in Jesus Christ as our Savior when we first come to the Lord in our Initial Salvation. When we first got saved, this was a process of salvation that is based on God’s grace and mercy (that is without works). But after we are saved by God’s grace we need to continue in the faith and this involves the work of faith (like loving our brother —- which is obviously loving them in our deeds and not in just words or tongue - James 2:15-16). This work of faith is a part of the Sanctification of the Holy Spirit to live a holy life (that happens after we are saved by God’s grace).

God’s work of sanctification is through the Spirit, but only as we (believers) are faithful to walk by the Spirit in righteousness. If we do this, then we show that our faith is genuine; and so, the Spirit (who indwells the believer) guarantees the believer eternal life.

Galatians 6:7-9 (WEB) 7 Do not be deceived. God is not mocked, for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. 8 For he who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption. But he who sows to the Spirit will {{{from the Spirit}}} reap eternal life. 9 Let {{{us}}} not be weary in doing good, for {{{we}}} will reap in due season, {{{if we}}} do not give up.

Well said. But when I say it, our friend does not appear to agree.

The Spirit of God indwells the true believer to enable his faith to be victorious over the flesh in that sanctified life that the believer committed to when he first believed.

Romans 8:3-4 (EWEB) 3 For what the law couldn’t do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God did, sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh; 4 that the ordinance of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Therefore, the Spirit works to sanctify the believer as the believer continually puts to death the deeds of the body by the Spirit living in him.

Romans 8:12-14 (ENIV) 12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, {{{we}}} have an obligation – but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. 14 For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God.

Galatians 5:24-25 (EWEB) 24 Those who belong to Christ have crucified the flesh with its passions and lusts. 25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also keep in step with Spirit.

Not all Christians will continue to walk by the Spirit. Christians may not remain faithful, and so, they will grieve (Ephesians 4:17-32; Isaiah 63:10); quench (1 Thessalonians 5:19); insult (Hebrews 10:24-31); resist (Act 7:51), reject (1 Thessalonians 4:1-8), lie to (Acts 5:3), and test (Acts 5:9), the Spirit of God indwelling them, which can result in eternal punishment if not repented of (Hebrews 10:24-30); for the Spirit will only give eternal life to those Christians who continue to sow to the Spirit without giving up (Galatians 6:7-9).

I whole heartedly agree.
Salvation is conditional, but again, our friend does not appear to agree when I say these things, and they believe I am being unloving by mentioning them. Unless our friend has changed their beliefs overnight, I am not sure they are truly grasping what you are saying here (even though they gave you a “like rep“ on your post). In either case, may God’s grace, love, and goodness be upon you both.

May the Lord Jesus Christ get all the glory.

 

[ladodgers6]

Without getting into a debate the vast majority of Christians agree on the following explanation ...

​

Justification means being declared righteous, "(just as if we'd never sinned); while sanctification means growing in righteousness.​

Some may differ on interpretation, but the purpose of this thread is your interpretation of Romans 7 - especially verses 17-20. Do you interpret Romans 7:17-20 that Paul is as much as saying that he finds it difficult to stop sinning even after (not before) his "born again" conversion (Titus 3:5).

17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.​

How does one grow in righteousness if they can't seem to stop their sinning ... "Sin no more, lest a worse thing come upon you.” (John 5:14) and "Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more. ... from now on sin no more." (John 8:10-11).

He saved us, not because of any works of righteousness that we have done, but because of His own compassion and mercy, by the cleansing of the new birth (spiritual transformation, regeneration) and renewing by the Holy Spirit, (Titus 3:5)​

Great post with great questions. In Romans 7 Paul is speaking about struggling with sin as a believer. Because the more we grow in holiness through the Spirit, the more we see our sinful condition. People often think that as believers we will be perfectly holy through our works, which is incorrect, why? Because we are still in these bodies of death! Where the flesh is raging war against the Spirit, and vice versa. But a believer will be conscious about this.

The ungodly being declared righteous, is a change of legal status, from guilty to righteous, this is not about the ungodly sinner's moral improvement! How is this possible, through Faith the sinner receive, is credited, is imputed the righteousness of Christ. And it is Christ's righteousness given to us through Faith Alone apart from works that God declares the sinner righteous!

But it doesn't stop there. Christ's holiness is also credited to us (1 Cor, 1:30).

Because of justification, the defilement of good works does not prevent their being accepted and rewarded by God--William Ames

(Christians, rest in the proclamation of the Gospel!) May the Law expose your sin and the gospel remind you of Christ's perfect righteousness imputed to you!---Michael Horton

Holiness is a gift; otherwise we shall never have it. But we receive it now, at once, through justifying faith in Christ. For this reason, moral virtue (holiness, the image of God) is one seamless garment, which cannot be reached and obtained in a piecemeal fashion---Bavinck


Romans 4:4Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. 5And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, 6just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:​

7“Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
and whose sins are covered;
8blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin.”

From here spring our good works, because now the sting or better yet the curse of the Law has been removed! Now we can live to God, without any threat of the Law over us. And yes, we will continue to struggle with sin as believers, no doubt about it, until we receive our glorification. That is what Paul is speaking of in Romans 7, that with his mind he serves the Law of God, but his fleshly members sin. But he finds his redemption, his Peace, his life, his joy, in Christ Alone!​

 

[Bible Highlighter]

This is conjecture and caricature of Classical Calvinism.

I am not new to the Calvnist discussion. I have been takling with Calvinists and Non-Calvinists who believe they can sin and still be saved on some level since 2010. Yes, I understand the double message that some of them say that they must live holy to show a true faith, but it is an illusion because they also teach you can sin, and still be saved. But yet, another problem of course is Determinism within Calvinism. In the upside down world of Calvinism: God determines who is saved and not saved ultimately. This is what UNconditional Election is about. Yes, I know there are folks who hold to different points in Calvinism but I am not talking about those who hold to the different points but to the classic 5 point position. I am even aware of High Calvinism who are folks who do not even believe in preaching the gospel (Which classic Calvinists do not believe in).

Anyways, when you say that what I am saying is a caricature of Classic Calvinism, you gave you no real explanation as to WHY.
This is not a new tactic by Calvinists. The general response I get from Calvinists is:

“You don’t know Calvinism!” ​

So your words are just another way of saying that cliche phrase that I heard over the years many times before. It used to appear in the top of the Google search results, but you know how Google is these days. It changes a lot.

But you can do a Google image search on this cliche phrase and you will see what I am talking about.

So, let me ask you this, are the ungodly justified by Faith or by works?

Please check out my write up here:

The Two Sides of the Coin of Faith

The Two Sides of the Coin of Faith: The 1st Side of the Coin of Faith: Faith starts off as a belief or trust in Jesus Christ as one's Savior (John 3:16). We are first saved by God's grace through faith without the deeds of the law or works ALONE (Ephesians 2:8-9). We are saved initially and...

www.christianforums.com

Side Note:

Please keep in mind that I do realize that the Bible does also speak from different perspectives and it can contrast faith and works as appearing to be different things. But it also speaks of works as also being a part of our faith, as well. My write up using Scripture (in the CF thread) proves that fact. Please carefully be a good Berean and look at the verses in prayer and take your time digesting the verses in what they say. If you offer a quick reply and ignore my points, there really is nothing to discuss. Most in my experience will simply brush aside the verses I posted, and they will not care (Only seeking to push their own false narrative). They want what they believe and that’s it (even if it does not agree with the Bible). They are not up to having their beliefs challenged by the Bible with them being willing to change based on what His Word says. At least that has been my experience with most anyways. But I am hoping your different.

 

[BBAS 64]

The fulfillment of that covenant in in the Millennial Kingdom specifically in God's fulfillment of his promise to Israel, and also the final Eternal State of all believers when all sin will be vanquished forever. As it is now, most of Israel is still in a state of stupor, and even those who possess the Spirit by faith struggle against the misdeeds of the body.

For instance, Paul warns and admonishes Timothy to remain in that which he was taught to be saved:

1 Timothy 4:16 (EWEB) 16 Pay attention to yourself and to your doctrine. Continue in these things, for in doing this you will both save yourself and those who hear [listen to] you.



"Verse 39" is not a doctrinal statement of once saved always saved. Rather, the confidence of the writer to the Hebrews is that "we" including himself, are not of them who draw back unto perdition. The Scriptures give many warnings, admonition, teaching, and examples to the Church of those who were in the faith but fell away. The writer of Hebrews gives the same warning to the "we" in the Book of Hebrews as follows:

Hebrews 6:11 We desire that each one of you may show the same diligence to the fullness of hope even to the end, 12 that you won’t be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and perseverance inherited The Promises.

Hebrews 3:12-15 (EWEB) 12 Beware, brothers and sisters, lest perhaps there might be in any one of you an evil heart of unbelief, in falling away from the living God; 13 but exhort one another day by day, so long as it is called “today”, lest anyone of you be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence firm to the end, 15 while it is said, “Today if you will hear his voice, do not harden your hearts, as in the rebellion.” [Psalm 95:7-8]

Hebrews 4:11 (EWEB) 11 Let us therefore give diligence to enter into that Rest, lest anyone fall after the same example of disobedience.

Hebrews 4:1 (EWEB) Let us fear therefore, lest perhaps anyone of you should seem to have come short of a promise of entering into his Rest.

Hebrews 6:11-12 (EWEB) 11 We desire that each one of you may show the same diligence to the fullness of hope even to the end, 12 that you won’t be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and perseverance inherited the promises.

The writer would not have written those warnings to the Christian brothers if they were guaranteed to remain saved.

Good Day, Setst

Never said that verse 39 is a doctrinal statement so it is a moot point.

I love the warning passages they server 2 functions in my life. They keep my dependent on the mediator of the NC also gives me great love and respect for my past school master the law even know I have set it aside.

The other a little more obscure it reminds me to morn for those who are not saved even though they think they are.

I disagree I believe Jesus was quite clear in the issue, and the writer of the Hebrews in explaining the finality NC to Jews. With out getting too deep into the short falls of the OC there are NT Scholar that do better than I Ever could ( DA Carson NT use of the OT and he did a series on Hebrews that is on youtube) and Schreiner work on Hebrews or the magnum work from John Owen if you are feeling very energetic.

You may find it useful to read the Jewish writings on Melchizedek and what was believed by the Jews and why the writer addressed that the NC saves to the uttermost, and the function of Jesus as Priest and intercessor for His NC people.

Hebrew 7

Now if perfection had been attainable through the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people received the law), what further need would there have been for another priest to arise after the order of Melchizedek, rather than one named after the order of Aaron? For when there is a change in the priesthood, there is necessarily a change in the law as well. For the one of whom these things are spoken belonged to another tribe, from which no one has ever served at the altar. For it is evident that our Lord was descended from Judah, and in connection with that tribe Moses said nothing about priests. This becomes even more evident when another priest arises in the likeness of Melchizedek, who has become a priest, not on the basis of a legal requirement concerning bodily descent, but by the power of an indestructible life. For it is witnessed of him, “You are a priest forever, after the order of Melchizedek.” For on the one hand, a former commandment is set aside because of its weakness and uselessness (for the law made nothing perfect); but on the other hand, a better hope is introduced, through which we draw near to God.
And it was not without an oath. For those who formerly became priests were made such without an oath, but this one was made a priest with an oath by the one who said to him: “The Lord has sworn and will not change his mind, ‘You are a priest forever.’” This makes Jesus the guarantor of a better covenant. The former priests were many in number, because they were prevented by death from continuing in office, but he holds his priesthood permanently, because he continues forever. Consequently, he is able to save to the uttermost those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them. For it was indeed fitting that we should have such a high priest, holy, innocent, unstained, separated from sinners, and exalted above the heavens. He has no need, like those high priests, to offer sacrifices daily, first for his own sins and then for those of the people, since he did this once for all when he offered up himself. For the law appoints men in their weakness as high priests, but the word of the oath, which came later than the law, appoints a Son who has been made perfect forever.



As I had posted the warning passages are the means that God uses to keep his NC people on the straight and narrow as it were, and they are very effective.

In Him

Bill

 

[BBAS 64]

So the documentary that I sent to you is lying?
I don’t think so. I think you are misunderstanding the translators.
There are two groups that worked on the King James Bible.
One group was Anglican and one group was Puritan (Calvinist).
If you don’t believe that documentary, there are others that say a similar thing.
Even history articles on the KJB teach the truth that there were was one group of translators called the Anglicans and the other group of translators called the Puritans (Calvinists). They were not one group called Anglican Puritans. That is an imaginary tale.



You are seriously misinformed. The KJB was not originally created with a “copyright” in 1611. So it was free from trying to alter the text so as to fit a “copyright.” It was only in 1710 that it later received a copyright in England (See here). King James died in 1625. There is no copyright on the KJB here in the US (The Word of God is not bound - 2 Timothy 2:9). I believe it is one of the reasons why various men of England moved to settle in America, where the Word of God could be preached freely. But you can believe whatever you wish.

Good Day,BH

Have you read the preface to the reader?

I did refer to the 39 Articles for the sake of doctrine clarity on the issue, Anglicans in those days were Calvinist ever read JC Ryle on Holiness?


Ummm I would refer you to some UK sources as it is not a product produced by the United States rather, a product of the Church of England.

Letters: The King James Bible and eternal copyright

Letters: Michael Gove and the government are making a gift of the King James Bible to every school in the UK but continue to restrict how we use it

www.theguardian.com

Rights and Permissions: KJV

www.cambridge.org

Most Christians understand 1 John 1:8 to be a banner flag to justify sin which does not fit the context.


Use your own words to summarize more clearly In small brief bullet points that are clear and concise. I am not watching Calvinist propanganda. No offense, but my time is too valueable to listen to such nonsense.

Most Christians none I know... the text is clear:

If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

As you wish...

In Him,

Bill

 

[Clare73]

The fulfillment of that covenant in in the Millennial Kingdom

Prophecy is given in riddles and not clearly (Nu 12:8).
The riddle of Rev 20 is figurative of the church age, 1000 years being a figure of the fullness of time for the church age.

The NT presents the fulfillment of that new covenant (Jer 31:31-33) as now, Jesus being its High Priest and Mediator now (Heb 8:1-13).
We are in the everlasting "millennial" kingdom now (Mt 12:28, Da 2:44,** Eph 2:6, 1 Pe 2:5, 1 Pe 2:9, Rev 1:6, Rev 5:9-10).
Jesus' kingdom is spiritual (of heaven), here and now (Mt 13:24, 31, 33, 44, 45, 47, 18:23, 20:1, Mk 4:26).
The future kingdom is the everlasting kingdom in the new heavens and new earth, the home of righteousness (2 Pe 3:13, Mt 5:5, 22:2, 25:1, Lk 21:25-28, 31, Ro 4:13, Isa 65:17ff, 66:22, Rev 21:1-4, no death).
But the temporal Messianic kingdom is now, for we are reigning with Christ now (Eph 2:6), in his spiritual kingdom now (Lk 22:69, Eph 1:19-22, Mk 14:62, 16:19, Ro 8:34, 1 Co 15:25, Col 3:1, Heb 1:3, 8:1, 10:12-13, 12:2, 1 Pe 3:22, Rev 1:6, Ps 2:6 w/ Heb 12:22).

** "in the time of those kings;" i.e., the Roman empire (Da 2:40-43), which conquered the Greek empire (Da 2:39, 8:21).
The everlasting Messianic (millennial) Kingdom was set up during the past Roman empire, at the first coming of Christ (Mt 12:28).
God has only one everlasting kingdom, it is now, there will be no other.

specifically in God's fulfillment of his promise to Israel,

All God's promises (seed, Canaan) to Israel have been fulfilled, in the full possession of the land (Josh 21:43, 23:14) and in the full occupation of the land (1 Kgs 4:21, 24-25).
The only promise remaining to Israel is a conditional one in the NT, of their grafting back into the church, the one olive tree of God's people going all the way back to Abraham (Ro 11:16-23), of both the OT and NT saints, IF (not "when") they do not persist in unbelief, in which they have been persisting for 2,000 years now, and counting.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

This is conjecture and caricature of Classical Calvinism.

Men do nothing save at the secret instigation of God, and do not discuss and deliberate on anything but what he has previously decreed with himself, and brings to pass by his secret direction.” —- John Calvin.

“The first man fell because the Lord deemed it meet that he should: why he deemed it meet, we know not… Man therefore falls, divine providence so ordainingbut he falls by his own fault.” —- John Calvin.

“…men can deliberately do nothing unless He inspire it.” —- John Calvin.

Calvinist theologian James White, in a debate with Hank Hannegraaf and George Bryson, was asked, “When a child is raped, is God responsible and did He decree that rape?” To which Mr. White replied:

“Yes, because if not then it’s meaningless and purposeless and though God knew it was going to happen he created it without a purpose… and God is responsible for the creation of despair… If He didn‟t [decree child rape] then that rape is an element of meaningless evil that has no purpose.”—- James White.

“God has decreed the existence of evil, he has not merely permitted it,” —- Vincent Cheung.

“Has God predetermined every tiny detail in the universe, such as dust particles in the air and all of our besetting sins? Yes” —- John Piper.

Speaking of Jesus taking away sin, Mr. Piper claims he still does his sin even though these sins are not on him because they [his sins] have been taken away:

“He [Jesus] has in him… taken away… taken away… I don’t have them anymore… I still do them [sin], but I don’t have them, they are not on me.”
—- John Piper.

”So when I say that everything that exists — including evil — is ordained by an infinitely holy and all-wise God to make the glory of Christ shine more brightly,” —- John Piper.

”“God is able without blameworthy ‘tempting’ to see to it that a person does what God ordains for him to do even if it involves evil.” —- John Piper.

”God desired for man to fall into sin.” “I am suggesting that God created sin.” —- R.C. Sproul Jr.

“All things that happen in all the world at any time and in all history–whether inorganic matter, vegetation, animal, man or angels (both good and evil ones)– come to pass because God ordained them. Even sin– the fall of the devil from heaven, the fall of Adam, and every evil thought, word, and deed in all of history… Foreordination means God’s sovereign plan, whereby He decides all that is to happen in the entire universe. Nothing in this world happens by chance. God is in back of everything. He decides and causes all things to happen that do happen. He is not sitting on the sidelines wondering and perhaps fearing what is going to happen next. No, He has foreordained everything ‘after the counsel of his will’ (Eph. 1:11): the moving of a finger, the beating of a heart, the laughter of a girl, the mistake of a typist – even sin…Although sin and unbelief are contrary to what God commands…God has included them in his sovereign decree (ordained them, caused them to certainly come to pass). —- Edwin Palmer.

““God by his providence permitted some of the angels willfully and irrecoverably, to fall into sin and damnation…ordering that, and all their sins, to his glory.” —- W.G.T. Shedd.

“I wish very frankly and pointedly to assert that if a man gets drunk and shoots his family, it was the will of God that he should do it…” He goes on to assert, “Let it be unequivocally said that this view certainly makes God the cause of sin. God is the sole ultimate cause of everything. There is absolutely nothing independent of him. He alone is the eternal being. He alone is omnipotent. He alone is sovereign.[23] Some people who do not wish to extend God’s power over evil things, and particularly over moral evils…The Bible therefore explicitly teaches that God creates sin.” —- Gordan H. Clark.

“God brings about all things in accordance with his will. It isn’t just that God manages to turn the evil aspects of our world to good for those that love him; it is rather that he himself brings about these evil aspects… This includes God’s having even brought about the Nazi’s brutality at Birkenau and Auschwitz as well as the terrible killings of Dennis Rader and even the sexual abuse of a young child.” —- Mark Talbot and John Piper.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Good Day,BH

Have you read the preface to the reader?

I did refer to the 39 Articles for the sake of doctrine clarity on the issue, Anglicans in those days were Calvinist ever read JC Ryle on Holiness?

Again, the articles of faith does not mean that there were not two groups of translators (one group that was Anglican and one group that was Puritan). Besides, these articles are not translated into Modern English. I don’t see you as an expert in 1600’s English (Let alone Modern English). Get an expert to talk with on this topic and then get back to me. But if you are going off your own flawed reasoning, you are not really seeing the truth here.

Ummm I would refer you to some UK sources as it is not a product produced by the United States rather, a product of the Church of England.

Letters: The King James Bible and eternal copyright

Letters: Michael Gove and the government are making a gift of the King James Bible to every school in the UK but continue to restrict how we use it

www.theguardian.com

Rights and Permissions: KJV

www.cambridge.org

None of those above links suggests that the copyright was placed on the KJB in 1611. You most likely did not even look at the link I gave you. The UK today can lay claim to 1611 as the copyright because that is when it was published. But that does not mean that it originally had a copyright in 1611.

Most Christians none I know... the text is clear:

If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

If you want to read 1 John 1:8 in the vacuum of space, that is on you.
There are many things in the Bible that we can easily misunderstand if we do not read the context.
The problem for you is that nothing in the context supports your sin and still be saved interpretation on 1 John 1:8.
It does not say in context that the faithful saints sin in word, thought, and deed daily.
It does not say in context that the faithful saints will always sin this side of Heaven.
That’s your imagination working overtime just like your imagination is seeing a copyright given to the KJB in those article links you sent me.

 

[BBAS 64]

Men do nothing save at the secret instigation of God, and do not discuss and deliberate on anything but what he has previously decreed with himself, and brings to pass by his secret direction.” —- John Calvin.

“The first man fell because the Lord deemed it meet that he should: why he deemed it meet, we know not… Man therefore falls, divine providence so ordainingbut he falls by his own fault.” —- John Calvin.

“…men can deliberately do nothing unless He inspire it.” —- John Calvin.

Calvinist theologian James White, in a debate with Hank Hannegraaf and George Bryson, was asked, “When a child is raped, is God responsible and did He decree that rape?” To which Mr. White replied:

“Yes, because if not then it’s meaningless and purposeless and though God knew it was going to happen he created it without a purpose… and God is responsible for the creation of despair… If He didn‟t [decree child rape] then that rape is an element of meaningless evil that has no purpose.”—- James White.

“God has decreed the existence of evil, he has not merely permitted it,” —- Vincent Cheung.

“Has God predetermined every tiny detail in the universe, such as dust particles in the air and all of our besetting sins? Yes” —- John Piper.

Speaking of Jesus taking away sin, Mr. Piper claims he still does his sin even though these sins are not on him because they [his sins] have been taken away:

“He [Jesus] has in him… taken away… taken away… I don’t have them anymore… I still do them [sin], but I don’t have them, they are not on me.”
—- John Piper.

”So when I say that everything that exists — including evil — is ordained by an infinitely holy and all-wise God to make the glory of Christ shine more brightly,” —- John Piper.

”“God is able without blameworthy ‘tempting’ to see to it that a person does what God ordains for him to do even if it involves evil.” —- John Piper.

”God desired for man to fall into sin.” “I am suggesting that God created sin.” —- R.C. Sproul Jr.

“All things that happen in all the world at any time and in all history–whether inorganic matter, vegetation, animal, man or angels (both good and evil ones)– come to pass because God ordained them. Even sin– the fall of the devil from heaven, the fall of Adam, and every evil thought, word, and deed in all of history… Foreordination means God’s sovereign plan, whereby He decides all that is to happen in the entire universe. Nothing in this world happens by chance. God is in back of everything. He decides and causes all things to happen that do happen. He is not sitting on the sidelines wondering and perhaps fearing what is going to happen next. No, He has foreordained everything ‘after the counsel of his will’ (Eph. 1:11): the moving of a finger, the beating of a heart, the laughter of a girl, the mistake of a typist – even sin…Although sin and unbelief are contrary to what God commands…God has included them in his sovereign decree (ordained them, caused them to certainly come to pass). —- Edwin Palmer.

““God by his providence permitted some of the angels willfully and irrecoverably, to fall into sin and damnation…ordering that, and all their sins, to his glory.” —- W.G.T. Shedd.

“I wish very frankly and pointedly to assert that if a man gets drunk and shoots his family, it was the will of God that he should do it…” He goes on to assert, “Let it be unequivocally said that this view certainly makes God the cause of sin. God is the sole ultimate cause of everything. There is absolutely nothing independent of him. He alone is the eternal being. He alone is omnipotent. He alone is sovereign.[23] Some people who do not wish to extend God’s power over evil things, and particularly over moral evils…The Bible therefore explicitly teaches that God creates sin.” —- Gordan H. Clark.

“God brings about all things in accordance with his will. It isn’t just that God manages to turn the evil aspects of our world to good for those that love him; it is rather that he himself brings about these evil aspects… This includes God’s having even brought about the Nazi’s brutality at Birkenau and Auschwitz as well as the terrible killings of Dennis Rader and even the sexual abuse of a young child.” —- Mark Talbot and John Piper.

Good Day,

What a list....Thanks

Lets put a bit of Amazing Gospel Grace in here:

God allows us to struggle with sin our whole lives to convince us until our dying breath of our desperate need of the gospel." -John Newton

In Him

Bill

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Good Day,

What a list....Thanks

Lets put a bit of Amazing Gospel Grace in here:

God allows us to struggle with sin our whole lives to convince us until our dying breath of our desperate need of the gospel." -John Newton

In Him

Bill

It was not meant to inspire you or anyone. It was meant to disgust you and or all people.

 

[Foghorn]

Without getting into a debate the vast majority of Christians agree on the following explanation ...

​

Justification means being declared righteous, "(just as if we'd never sinned); while sanctification means growing in righteousness.​

Some may differ on interpretation, but the purpose of this thread is your interpretation of Romans 7 - especially verses 17-20. Do you interpret Romans 7:17-20 that Paul is as much as saying that he finds it difficult to stop sinning even after (not before) his "born again" conversion (Titus 3:5).

17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.​

I believe Paul is speaking from his new life in Christ. He is a Christian

How does one grow in righteousness if they can't seem to stop their sinning ... "Sin no more, lest a worse thing come upon you.” (John 5:14) and "Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more. ... from now on sin no more." (John 8:10-11).

Sanctification is life long, and it’s also monergistic.

He saved us, not because of any works of righteousness that we have done, but because of His own compassion and mercy, by the cleansing of the new birth (spiritual transformation, regeneration) and renewing by the Holy Spirit, (Titus 3:5)​

 

[BBAS 64]

It was not meant to inspire you or anyone. It was meant to disgust you and or all people.

Good Day,

Now come on there you have to admit is is very telling that even Sin servers the the purpose of the creator.

He could stop it he wanted....

Roman 5 - For if, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ. Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous. Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.


Inspired... more like Amazed.

Martin Luther once said, “Even the devil is God’s devil.” So while this book is about Satan, it is even more about God’s sovereign power over him. Read it for wisdom, read it for peace, and read it for strength.

Good Book on the subject generally: God's Devil | Book | Moody Church Media

In Him,

Bill

 

[AbbaLove]

Like other "theology" threads after so many pages the discussion could become somewhat contentious ... with false accusations. In this thread as in others the discernment of scripture could be influenced by one's denominational (or non-denominational) theology.

If a Christian says: "I don't have a theology" it could come across to others that their study, understanding, and interpretation of scripture is based solely/entirely on the anointing of the Holy Spirit and NOT by any denominational theology (e.g. Calvinism v Armenism, etc).

biblelesson said:​

I don’t have a theology! And Christians are given the gift of discernment by the Holy Spirit according to the gospel, 1 Corinthians 12:10 KJV​

Isn't the supernatural Gift of discerning/distinquishing of spirits referring more to unbelievers or immature christians that may have an unclean spirit such as: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions ... (Galatians 5:19-21)

10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the ability to distinguish between spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. (ESV)​

10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: (KJV)​

1 John 2:27 (AMPC)​

But as for you, the anointing (the sacred appointment, the unction) which you received from Him abides [permanently] in you; [so] then you have no need that anyone should instruct you. But just as His anointing teaches you concerning everything and is true and is no falsehood, so you must abide in (live in, never depart from) Him [being rooted in Him, knit to Him], just as [His anointing] has taught you [to do].​

​

Is not the above anointed scripture a Biblical standard as to whose interpretation-clarification of scripture is annointed? Thus it's not impossible that an anointed Christian would rightly believe ...​

​

"The only theology i have is that of the Lord Himself. However, i'm still learning and therefore open to the anointed interpretation of other Christians. Christians who have the supernatural Gift of Knowledge and Wisdom when it comes to clarifying the interpretation of God's Word (2 Peter 3:15-17).​

Galatians 5:13-18​

 

[ladodgers6]

I am not new to the Calvnist discussion. I have been takling with Calvinists and Non-Calvinists who believe they can sin and still be saved on some level since 2010. Yes, I understand the double message that some of them say that they must live holy to show a true faith, but it is an illusion because they also teach you can sin, and still be saved.

I have dealt with this issue people keep bringing up. So, for clarification, does a person who is saved by Faith Alone in Christ, do they lose their salvation when they sin? This is not a trick question, it's an easy yes or no.

But yet, another problem of course is Determinism within Calvinism. In the upside down world of Calvinism: God determines who is saved and not saved ultimately.

Again before I address this same recurring argument, allow me to ask, do you hold to a Plan of Salvation? Please do me a favor and be as detail as possible, so that I do not misrepresent your position. That's not my goal, I just want to know your premise.

This is what UNconditional Election is about. Yes, I know there are folks who hold to different points in Calvinism but I am not talking about those who hold to the different points but to the classic 5 point position. I am even aware of High Calvinism who are folks who do not even believe in preaching the gospel (Which classic Calvinists do not believe in).

Thanks for identifying Classical Calvinism vs Hyper-Calvinism. But I see some issues with these comments. Here' why, either God saves sinners by Sheer Grace Alone (Unconditional) or by some virtuous condition worthy to place God in debt to them (conditional). I use to think as you do, once upon a time. Until I heard the Doctrines of Grace Alone.

I do agree with on your conclusions on Hyper-Calvinism. I am a Classical Calvinist who holds to the 5 Solas. Here's the thing, if someone doesn't understand sin, will not understand grace. People with a weak view of the Fall, will also have a weak view of Grace.​

Anyways, when you say that what I am saying is a caricature of Classic Calvinism, you gave you no real explanation as to WHY.
This is not a new tactic by Calvinists. The general response I get from Calvinists is:

“You don’t know Calvinism!” ​

Breath and relax! Why cannot I have my assessment of your paradigm? I am explaining now, so relax, dude, take a chill pill. By your own words here, I am making my conclusions. We are either saved by Grace Alone or by works Paul says, it cannot be both! Either we are radically depraved in our hearts or not! Either Redemption is God's plan that is fulfilled by His Son, or its a exhortation for us to fulfill. I have tried that hamster wheel of self-righteousness endeavor that leads only to destruction by delusional piety. Exactly what Paul condemns throughout his letters! The famous debate between Augustine vs Pelagius was epic, go check it out for yourself, if you haven't already. It's illuminating to understand what God promised he will do for his people, instead of the false premise of Cain that is too well practice on the mainstream.​

So your words are just another way of saying that cliche phrase that I heard over the years many times before. It used to appear in the top of the Google search results, but you know how Google is these days. It changes a lot.​

Instead of judging people, why do you simmer down, and allow other people to present their position before you try to bash them, by your conjecture. Can we have a civil debate or not. If not, I am have with that, I'll leave it here. And go my own way.

But you can do a Google image search on this cliche phrase and you will see what I am talking about.​

I will address this.

Please check out my write up here:

The Two Sides of the Coin of Faith

The Two Sides of the Coin of Faith: The 1st Side of the Coin of Faith: Faith starts off as a belief or trust in Jesus Christ as one's Savior (John 3:16). We are first saved by God's grace through faith without the deeds of the law or works ALONE (Ephesians 2:8-9). We are saved initially and...

www.christianforums.com

I will when I have time, I have a lot of things going on right now. But I will.

Side Note:

Please keep in mind that I do realize that the Bible does also speak from different perspectives and it can contrast faith and works as appearing to be different things. But it also speaks of works as also being a part of our faith, as well. My write up using Scripture (in the CF thread) proves that fact. Please carefully be a good Berean and look at the verses in prayer and take your time digesting the verses in what they say. If you offer a quick reply and ignore my points, there really is nothing to discuss. Most in my experience will simply brush aside the verses I posted, and they will not care (Only seeking to push their own false narrative). They want what they believe and that’s it (even if it does not agree with the Bible). They are not up to having their beliefs challenged by the Bible with them being willing to change based on what His Word says. At least that has been my experience with most anyways. But I am hoping your different.

​

I will read it, but I have studying these particular topics for several years, because these are crucial and the crux of the Gospel, where the church stands or falls. As I said before I once thought as you do now, and I vehemently debated Calvinists, until I understood and believe in God who justifies the "Ungodly", not the godly! For what do healthy people need a doctor to heal them. Christ came to redeem sinners! I love sharing and debating this topic in particular "Justification by Faith Alone", and I hope we can have a cordial and civil discussion, which is my aim. I will not insult you or ridicule you, I will only share my core beliefs with you. If this discussion gets heated, which it might, no ill will is intended on my part.​

 

[setst777]

Prophecy is given in riddles and not clearly (Nu 12:8).
The riddle of Rev 20 is figurative of the church age, 1000 years being a figure of the fullness of time for the church age.

The NT presents the fulfillment of that new covenant (Jer 31:31-33) as now, Jesus being its High Priest and Mediator now (Heb 8:1-13).
We are in the everlasting "millennial" kingdom now (Mt 12:28, Da 2:44,** Eph 2:6, 1 Pe 2:5, 1 Pe 2:9, Rev 1:6, Rev 5:9-10).
Jesus' kingdom is spiritual (of heaven), here and now (Mt 13:24, 31, 33, 44, 45, 47, 18:23, 20:1, Mk 4:26).
The future kingdom is the eternal kingdom, in the new heavens and new earth, the home of righteousness (2 Pe 3:13, Mt 5:5, 22:2, 25:1, Lk 21:25-28, 31, Ro 4:13, Isa 65:17ff, 66:22, Rev 21:1-4, no death).
But the temporal Messianic kingdom is now, for we are reigning with Christ now (Eph 2:6), in his spiritual kingdom now (Lk 22:69, Eph 1:19-22, Mk 14:62, 16:19, Ro 8:34, 1 Co 15:25, Col 3:1, Heb 1:3, 8:1, 10:12-13, 12:2, 1 Pe 3:22, Rev 1:6, Ps 2:6 w/ Heb 12:22).

** "in the time of those kings;" i.e., the Roman empire (Da 2:40-43), which conquered the Greek empire (Da 2:39, 8:21).
The everlasting Messianic (millennial) Kingdom was set up during the past Roman empire, at the first coming of Christ (Mt 12:28).
God has only one everlasting kingdom, it is now, there will be no other.

All God's promises (seed, Canaan) to Israel have been fulfilled, in the full possession of the land (Josh 21:43, 23:14) and in the full occupation of the land (1 Kgs 4:21, 24-25).
The only promise remaining to Israel is in the NT, of their grafting back into the church, the one olive tree of God's people going all the way back to Abraham (Ro 11:16-23), of both the OT and NT saints, IF (not "when") they do not persist in unbelief, in which they have been persisting for 2,000 years now, and counting.

According to Ezekiel and Zachariah, God will show the nations that His promises to Israel will be fulfilled, beginning with the rebirth of Israel, and at the Battle of Armageddon, into the Millennial Kingdom.

The Rebirth of Israel in fulfillment of prophecy.

In a single day, Isreal is re-born

May 14, 1948 Israel Restored in fulfillment of Prophecy

After being away from their homeland for almost 2,000 years, the Jews were given a national homeland in Palestine by the Balfour Declaration in November, 1917. In 1922, the League of Nations gave Great Britain the mandate over Palestine. On May 14, 1948, Great Britain withdrew her mandate, and immediately Israel was declared a sovereign state, and her growth and importance among nations became astonishing.”

Isaiah 66:7 “Before she travailed, she gave birth. Before her pain came, she delivered a son.
8 Who has heard of such a thing? Who has seen such things?
Shall a land be born in one day? Shall a nation be born at once?
For as soon as Zion travailed, she gave birth to her children.
9 Shall I bring to the birth, and not cause to be delivered?” says Yahweh.
“Shall I who cause to give birth shut the womb?” says your God.
10 “Rejoice with Jerusalem, and be glad for her, all you who love her.
Rejoice for joy with her, all you who mourn over her;
11 that you may nurse and be satisfied at the comforting breasts;
that you may drink deeply, and be delighted with the abundance of her glory.”
12 For Yahweh says, “Behold, I will extend peace to her like a river,
and the glory of the nations like an overflowing stream; and you will nurse.
You will be carried on her side, and will be dandled on her knees.
13 As one whom his mother comforts, so will I comfort you. You will be comforted in Jerusalem.”

Israel’s status as a sovereign nation was established and reaffirmed during the course of a single day, and that it was born of a movement called Zionism

Isaiah 11:11-12 (WEB) 11 It will happen in that day that the Lord will set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant that is left of his people from Assyria, from Egypt, from Pathros, from Cush, from Elam, from Shinar, from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea. 12 He will set up a banner for the nations, and will assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.

Amos 9:14-15
I will bring back my exiled people Israel; they will rebuild the ruined cities and live in them. They will plant vineyards and drink their wine; they will make gardens and eat their fruit. I will plant Israel in their own land, never again to be uprooted from the land I have given them,” says the Lord your God.

Jeremiah 16:14-15
“However, the days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when men will no longer say, ‘As surely as the Lord lives, who brought the Israelites up out of Egypt,’ but they will say, ‘As surely as the Lord lives, who brought the Israelites up out of the land of the north and out of all the countries where he had banished them.’ For I will restore them to the land I gave their forefathers.

Jeremiah 31:10
“Hear the word of the Lord, O nations; proclaim it in distant coastlands: ‘He who scattered Israel will gather them and will watch over his flock like a shepherd.’

Ezekiel 34:13
I will bring them out from the nations and gather them from the countries, and I will bring them into their own land. I will pasture them on the mountains of Israel, in the ravines and in all the settlements in the land.

Ezekiel 37:21-22 (Restored as a single nation - Judah and Isreal together)
and say to them, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: I will take the Israelites out of the nations where they have gone. I will gather them from all around and bring them back into their own land. I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel. There will be one king over all of them and they will never again be two nations or be divided into two kingdoms.

Although God gathers the Jews back to Israel from all the nations in which he scattered them, the Jews will not repent as one people until the Battle of Armageddon.

In this day that we now live in, and since its rebirth, God has made Israel to be an immovable rock among the nations, and will make all the nations reel, which is happening now. At the Battle of Armageddon, God will save Israel in the person of Lord Jesus to begin the Millennial Reign of Christ on earth to fulfill His promises that God made specifically to the Jewish people. The Gentile saints who are resurrected in glory will reign with Christ over the nations in that day.

Zechariah 12:1 The LORD, who stretches out the heavens, who lays the foundation of the earth, and who forms the human spirit within a person, declares: 2 “I am going to make Jerusalem a cup that sends all the surrounding peoples reeling. Judah will be besieged as well as Jerusalem. 3 On that day, when all the nations of the earth are gathered against her, I will make Jerusalem an immovable rock for all the nations. All who try to move it will injure themselves. 4 On that day I will strike every horse with panic and its rider with madness,” declares the Lord. “I will keep a watchful eye over Judah, but I will blind all the horses of the nations. 5 Then the clans of Judah will say in their hearts, ‘The people of Jerusalem are strong, because the Lord Almighty is their God.’
6 “On that day I will make the clans of Judah like a firepot in a woodpile, like a flaming torch among sheaves. They will consume all the surrounding peoples right and left, but Jerusalem will remain intact in her place.
7 “The Lord will save the dwellings of Judah first, so that the honor of the house of David and of Jerusalem’s inhabitants may not be greater than that of Judah. 8 On that day the Lord will shield those who live in Jerusalem, so that the feeblest among them will be like David, and the house of David will be like God, like the angel of the Lord going before them. 9 On that day I will set out to destroy all the nations that attack Jerusalem.
Mourning for the One They Pierced
10 “And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me (him), the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son. 11 On that day the weeping in Jerusalem will be as great as the weeping of Hadad Rimmon in the plain of Megiddo. 12 The land will mourn, each clan by itself, with their wives by themselves: the clan of the house of David and their wives, the clan of the house of Nathan and their wives, 13 the clan of the house of Levi and their wives, the clan of Shimei and their wives, 14 and all the rest of the clans and their wives.

Compare with Ezekiel 39.

See also:
Zechariah 13
Zechariah 14
Revelation 12:13-17
Revelation 7

 

[Clare73]

Like other "theology" threads after so many pages the discussion could become somewhat contentious ... with false accusations. In this thread as in others the discernment of scripture could be influenced by one's denominational (or non-denominational) theology.

If a Christian says: "I don't have a theology" it could come across to others that their study, understanding, and interpretation of scripture is based solely/entirely on the anointing of the Holy Spirit and NOT by any denominational theology (e.g. Calvinism v Armenism, etc).

biblelesson said:​

I don’t have a theology! And Christians are given the gift of discernment by the Holy Spirit according to the gospel, 1 Corinthians 12:10 KJV​

Isn't the supernatural Gift of discerning/distinquishing of spirits referring more to unbelievers or immature christians that may have an unclean spirit such as: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions ... (Galatians 5:19-21)

10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the ability to distinguish between spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. (ESV)​

10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: (KJV)​

1 John 2:27 (AMPC)​

But as for you, the anointing (the sacred appointment, the unction) which you received from Him abides [permanently] in you; [so] then you have no need that anyone should instruct you. But just as His anointing teaches you concerning everything and is true and is no falsehood, so you must abide in (live in, never depart from) Him [being rooted in Him, knit to Him], just as [His anointing] has taught you [to do].​

​

Is not the above anointed scripture a Biblical standard as to whose interpretation-clarification of scripture is annointed? Thus it's not impossible that an anointed Christian would rightly believe ...​

"The only theology i have is that of the Lord Himself. However, i'm still learning and therefore open to the anointed interpretation of other Christians. Christians who have the supernatural Gift of Knowledge and Wisdom when it comes to clarifying the interpretation of God's Word (2 Peter 3:15-17).

In the above, are you quoting the Greek of 2 Pe 3:15-17; i.e.,

"And deem the longsuffering of the Lord of us salvation, as indeed the beloved brother of us Paul according to the wisdom given to him wrote to you,
as also in all (his) epistles speaking in them concerning these things, in which is(are) some things hard to understand which the unlearned and unsteady twist as also the remaining scriptures to the(ir) own of them destruction.
Ye, therefore, beloved, knowing before guard lest being led away (with) by the error of the lawless ye fall from the (your) own stability,"
(2 Pe 3:15-17)

Galatians 5:13-18​

 

[Clare73]

According to Ezekiel and Zachariah, God will show the nations that His promises to Israel will be fulfilled, beginning with the rebirth of Israel, and at the Battle of Armageddon, into the Millennial Kingdom.

The promises to Israel of seed and land have been fulfilled. There are no promises remaining to Israel apart from the conditional promise of Ro 11:16-23 to be grafted back into the church, the one olive tree of God's people going all the way back to Abraham, of both OT and NT saints (Heb 12:22, the church of the firstborn wherein are the spirits of righteous men made perfect; e.g., Abel, Noah, Abraham, etc.).

Prophecy is given in riddles and not clearly (Nu 12:8), and is subject to more than one interpretation.

To be correct, personal interpretation of prophecy must not be in disagreement with authoritative NT apostolic teaching, because the word of God does not contradict itself.

The NT (as well as Da 2:44) teaches throughout that the everlasting kingdom of God is now, that it was set up at the first coming of Christ.
(See footnote on Da 2:44 in post #568.)
There are not two everlasting kingdoms.

The above personal interpretation of prophecy is contrary to NT teaching on the everlasting Kingdom of God being here and now, making that interpretation incorrect.

 

[setst777]

The promises to Israel of seed and land have been fulfilled. There are no promises remaining to Israel apart from the conditional promise of Ro 11:16-23 to be grafted back into the church, the one olive tree of God's people going all the way back to Abraham, of both OT and NT saints (Heb 12:22, the church of the firstborn wherein are the spirits of righteous men made perfect; e.g., Abel, Noah, Abraham, etc.).

Prophecy is given in riddles and not clearly (Nu 12:8), and is subject to more than one interpretation.

To be correct, personal interpretation of prophecy must not be in disagreement with authoritative NT apostolic teaching.

The NT (as well as Da 2:44) teaches that the everlasting kingdom of God is now, that it was set up at the first coming of Christ.
There are not two everlasting kingdoms.

The above personal interpretation of prophecy is contrary to NT teaching on the everlasting Kingdom of God being here and now, making it incorrect.

There will be only one Armageddon when all the nations are gathered against Israel. I did quote you some of those Passages and listed others, which specifically concerns Israel. I will believe the Scriptures. As well, in Matthew 24:9-22 [Daniel 9:27; Daniel 11:31; Daniel 12:11], Lord Jesus also takes the end time prophecy regarding Israel as literal.