Maybe you dont understand that PAUL wrote 2 Corinthians .????????????????
Listen,
Paul was called by Jesus, from Heaven, after JESUS died, rose again, and ascended back into Heaven.
Wake up, Abbaove.
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2 Corinthians 5:19 is before NOT after one's born again
True, Lord Jesus died for all sinners, and whoever repents toward God, and believes in Lord Jesus, is justified and saved before one work is ever done.
All credit goes to Lord Jesus for our salvation. We receive that salvation by faith.Amen.
You just gave Jesus all the credit due Him, for our Salvation.
Isn't it wonderful to give Jesus credit for the CROSS ?
So many try to deny HIM ....... with their water, works, law, and commandment keeping : Galatians 1:8
Lord Jesus said that it was us who believe who pass out of death onto life. Lord Jesus does not believe for us; rather, he specifically teaches, multiple times, that we must repent, and we are to believe in the Son to have life. Lord Jesus makes this plain to understand.I said because of... Jesus (not us)
It seems to me believers had the Spirit before Pentecost, but at Pentecost the Spirit was given in a new way.Can you show me where in Scripture it teaches that those who believe in Jesus do not have a saving faith until they receive the Spirit?
John 3:16 (WEB) 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life. [The rebirth of the indwelling Spirit is eternal life]
In the Old Covenant, except for kings, judges, and prophets, and those whom God gifted to do a special work, the {{{New Covenant of the Spirit}}} poured out on believers had not yet occurred in the Old Testament, not until Lord Jesus was glorified, and began at Pentecost. Did the OT saints have saving faith before receiving the Spirit, or did they believe in vain?
Before Lord Jesus was glorified, all those believing in him, including the disciples of Lord Jesus, and the 70 disciples whom Lord Jesus sent out to preach the Gospel and do miracles, and those in the Upper Room who believed in Lord Jesus, had not yet received the indwelling Spirit by faith, because Lord Jesus had not yet been glorified. Are you saying none of them had saving faith?
John 7:37-39 (WEB) 37 Now on the last and greatest day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, “If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me and drink! 38 He who believes in me, as the Scripture has said, from within him will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But he said this about the Spirit, which those believing in him {{{were}}} to receive. For the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus wasn’t yet glorified.
So, those who believed before the New Covenant in the Spirit, and died before the Spirit was given, did they all believe in vain - all being condemned because they did not have a saving faith, since the Spirit had not yet been poured out?
Do we pass out of death (regeneration of the indwelling Spirit) onto life before having a saving faith in Lord Jesus or after?
God says that all are dead in sin until God makes us alive (regeneration). We pass from Death to Life {{by Faith}} – not before.
John 5:24 (WEB) Most certainly I tell you, he who hears my word {{{and believes}}} him who sent me {{{has eternal life,}}} and doesn’t come into judgment, but has {{{passed out of DEATH into LIFE}}}.
There are plenty of sins listed in Scripture, amounting to a return to the flesh, that will keep one from ever seeing God. But personally I don't believe that any sin is unforgivable, unless it's persisted in without repentance. And I would never agree that a "born again" could never commit sin that constitutes a turning back away from God, thereby losing his vital relationship with Him, forfeiting his justified state by living unjustly. And the difference between a born again and a lukewarm Christian is highly subjective anyway.The enlarged bold type may be a reference to: Matthew 12:31-32 and Mark 3:28-30. Which way one believes seems to hinge on whether one is a traditional continualist of cessationist. That discussion/debate is for a Controversial Theology thread ... so PLEASE lets not derail this thread by debating "the one unforegiveable sin". We'll just have to agree that a "born again" (Titus 3:5) would never be guilty, but a lukewarm Christian (heaven forbid) may be guilty of the above verses in bold.
True, I was speaking of our after conversion/justification state.
So you believe in Once Saved, Always Saved. Then if the believer backslides the typical reply is "He wasn't really Saved."True, Lord Jesus died for all sinners, and whoever repents toward God, and believes in Lord Jesus, is justified and saved before one work is ever done.
Maybe you don't understand that PAUL wrote 2 Corinthians 5:19 .????????????????Listen,Paul was called by Jesus, from Heaven, after JESUS died, rose again, and ascended back into Heaven.Wake up, Abbaove.
fhansen said:
The church has struggled with these matters many centuries ago. The problem involves whether there is any consequence for sin. Can no amount or gravity of sin separate us from God again? The early church actually taught that there can be no repentance for serious sin after conversion, such as for murder or adultery. Conversion to the living God involved the turning away from sin and the ways of the world. Various passages support this no-more-repentance-available idea and in any case Gal 5 and elsewhere affirm that such sins lead to death.
fhansen said:
This was modified fairly soon, meaning that it was recognized that, due to God's love and mercy and desire that none should perish, one can repent of any sin, with a true change of heart. But sin was taken very seriously back then; the early believers had given up much to become Christians, including their lives and those who had returned to the flesh were not easily, or quickly, considered to be under God's grace again.
fhansen said:
So the historic teachings maintain that a believer has embarked on a journey, away from sin and nearer and nearer to God, to the holiness without which he will not see God (Heb 12:14). He must be on that road, walking by the Spirit, remaining in Christ, or else he'll inevitably stray. While it's taught that absolute sinless perfection is not possible in this life, persistence in grave sin as mentioned above would be to mock God and the work of His Son as that kind of sin is directly opposed to and destructive of love of God and neighbor.
Take it you are referring to the Mosaic Law (e.g. 10 Commandmenets) as well as NT Scripture?There are plenty of sins listed in Scripture, amounting to a return to the flesh, that will keep one from ever seeing God.
Your referring to previous post when "sin used to be taken more seriously". Is 21st century Christian church too lax (abortion, divorce remariage within the so-called Body of Christ)?But personally I don't believe that any sin is unforgivable, unless it's persisted in without repentance.
One Way (only way) to distinquish a born again new creation (Titus 3:5) from a lukewarm Christian may not even take Holy Spirit Discernment. With others that look and sound like wheat, but could be a tare one needs the Spiritual Gift of Discernment.And I would never agree that a "born again" could never commit sin that constitutes a turning back away from God, thereby losing his vital relationship with Him, forfeiting his justified state by living unjustly. And the difference between a born again and a lukewarm Christian is highly subjective anyway.
That is your own opinion and belief, but not what the Scriptures actually teach. Everyone has an opinion, and that is why we have thousands of Christian denominations. But what does God say, and whom will you believe?It seems to me believers had the Spirit before Pentecost, but at Pentecost the Spirit was given in a new way.
I believe you receive the Holy Spirit through repentance and faith (belief in the fact that Christ died for our sins and rose), and then the Spirit gives you saving faith (you get to know Christ personally. It becomes a relationship)..
I'm not interested in convincing you, just sharing my view. What is it you find so problematic? That people can believe in Christ without having saving faith?
So you believe in Once Saved, Always Saved. Then if the believer backslides the typical reply is "He wasn't really Saved."
Proof that Jesus was justified was only after He arose NOT before. However, your seeker-sensitive theology is very popular with churches. Your post is an example of prevalent seeker-sensitive theology. It's as if you ignore scrpture that says otherwise going against the grain of easy-peasy theology that's appealing to the ear of nominal Christianity. Maybe you don't really believe what you posted. It's a dangerous theology, but it fills the pews when you tell them what they like/want to hear..
28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love Him, who have been called according to His purpose.29 For those God foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.30 And those He predestined, He also called; those He called, He also justified; those He justified, He also glorified.Some of you were such, but you were washed. But you were sanctified. But you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and in the Spirit of our God. (1 Corinthains 6:11)
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James 2:18 (WEB)
James is talking about works inspired and under the anointed by the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 12:1-11)
Yes, a man will say, You have faith, and I have works.Show me your faith without works, and I will show you my faith by my works.The inspiration and anointing of the Holy Spirit will instruct born again disciplesto good works inspired (2 Corinthians 11:1-12) that will further advancethe Kingdom of Heaven and thereby Glorify GOD.
You are of the belief then that OT believers didn't have God's Spirit and no one was born again? Or do you think they were born again without the Holy Spirit?That is your own opinion and belief, but not what the Scriptures actually teach. Everyone has an opinion, and that is why we have thousands of Christian denominations. But what does God say, and whom will you believe?
We are children of God by faith, before ever receiving the Spirit.
Galatians 3:26 (WEB) 26 For you are all children of God, through faith in Christ Jesus.
And because we are children of God, which is by faith, the Spirit indwells us.
Galatians 4:6 (WEB) 6 And because you are children, God sent out the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, “Abba,[a] Father!”
When did the New Covenant of the Spirit poured out on believers begin? Did the New Covenant in the Spirit begin in the Old Covenant?
Acts 2:32 (WEB) 32 This Jesus God raised up, to which we all are witnesses. 33 Being therefore exalted by the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured out this, which you now see and hear.
The Spirit of God has always been at active, working with the Word of God, but the indwelling of the Spirit is a promise only in the New Covenant. That is what makes the New Covenant so special, in that God will now dwell in us by faith, all of which Lord Jesus purchased with His own blood.
John 14:15-17 (WEB) 15 If you love me, keep my commandments. 16 I will pray to the Father, and he will give you another Counselor, that he may be with you forever: 17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world can’t receive; for it doesn’t see him and doesn’t know him. You know him, for he lives {{{with}}} you, and will be {{{in}}} you.
Ephesians 1:13-14 (WEB) 13 In him you also, having heard the word of the truth, the Good News of your salvation—in whom, having also believed, you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a pledge of our inheritance, to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of his glory.
You are of the belief then that OT believers didn't have God's Spirit and no one was born again? Or do you think they were born again without the Holy Spirit?
I have my own experience. I came to believe the gospel, but was not yet saved. Then I gave my life to God in prayer and God saved me.
Well, those are the other side of the equation. But Gal 5:19-21 gives examples, as well as Rev 22:15.Take it you are referring to the Mosaic Law (e.g. 10 Commandmenets) as well as NT Scripture?
There are instances where we may fail to identify an act as sinful and other instances where our theology simply downplays the danger of sin with a belief in a sort of carte blanc forgiveness -as long as I believe-no overcoming of sin necessary.Your referring to previous post when "sin used to be taken more seriously". Is 21st century Christian church too lax (abortion, divorce remariage within the so-called Body of Christ)?
Fruit is the most important evidence although that can be tricky too, of course: phony, motivated by the flesh, not the Spirit. Either way a reborn person is not immune from falling again.One Way (only way) to distinquish a born again new creation (Titus 3:5) from a lukewarm Christian may not even take Holy Spirit Discernment. With others that look and sound like wheat, but could be a tare one needs the Spiritual Gift of Discernment.
Paul is referring to the unsaved
I said nothing of the sort-just the opposite, in fact.2. From fhansen's posts it sounds like he believes sins by a born again Christian (even murder, adultery) can't be foregiven by GOD even with deep sorrow confessing repentance with tears and remorseful sobbing.
Well, those are the other side of the equation. But Gal 5:19-21 gives examples
I see-that's a new one on me. But we cannot allow our preferred theology to undermine truth.Did you notice that Paul didnt refer to those as "sin".?
He called them "works of the flesh".
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