That's probably by he united us to Christ in eternity past, per Eph 1's teaching.
He chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world. Ring a bell?
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CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.
Jesus was not an Arminian
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That's probably by he united us to Christ in eternity past, per Eph 1's teaching.
He chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world. Ring a bell?
That's probably by he united us to Christ in eternity past, per Eph 1's teaching.
He chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world. Ring a bell?
So are the elect united to Christ prior to having faith? How about united to Christ prior to the cross? If so, I guess we can just throw those out; we don't need them.
The only way we are united to Christ is by faith, and it's all Now for our Eternal God.
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Eph 1:13
13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
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Everything starts with the WORD. I see this plainly. There is no union with Christ without the Word FIRST. Union is impossible without a reciprocal action from the recipient.
...you also were included in Christ WHEN you heard the word of truth...
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Rom 8:29-30
For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
In your version those in relationship with God are predestined to be justified by faith so they can stand in relationship with God. But, if they already are in intimate relationship with God without justification by faith then they don't need to be justified by faith in order to have a relationship.
For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
In your version those in relationship with God are predestined to be justified by faith so they can stand in relationship with God. But, if they already are in intimate relationship with God without justification by faith then they don't need to be justified by faith in order to have a relationship.
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Congrats. By your confusing the general, outward call of the Gospel to repent and believe with the inward, effectual call of God that results in regeneration, you have effectively pitted the Bible against itself. Observe:
1 Cor. 1:22-24 says that every one called is saved.
Matt. 22:14 says there are people called who aren't saved.
So either the Bible contradicts itself, or your understanding is lacking. My vote is on the latter.
1 Corinthians 1:22-24 does not say everyone called is saved. It is talking about foolishness and wisdom. As Jack pointed out earlier, Judas was not only called, but also chosen, or elected if you wish.
You have divided the call with your 'inward' and 'effectual' interpretation. There is no such thing. The only place you will find this in within Calvinist's books and writings. Sorry, but these writings do not dictate what the Bible says.
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Why is it not God choosing you for a specific purpose? Why must 'your' calling excel the calling of the disciples? Was not the purpose of your calling to be holy and blameless?
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The same way God "knows" people in these other verses:
Mat_7:23 And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you;
2Ti_2:19 But God's firm foundation stands, bearing this seal: "The Lord knows those who are his,"
Amo_3:2 "You only have I known of all the families of the earth; therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities.
In these examples, for God to "know" someone doesn't merely mean that he knows about them or their actions. it refers to an intimate knowledge, a relationship.
When Jesus said "I never knew you" in Mat 7:23, he wasn't merely saying that he didn't about their existence or about their actions. Obviously Jesus knows everyone, even those who perish. Therefore when he "knows" someone it means to know them intimately, to be in a relationship with them. The same is true of Amos 3:2. God said "you only have I known". Obviously he meant much more than knowing their existence. God knows every family on earth, not just Israel. So what did he mean by saying "I only know you among all the families". Obviously his "knowledge" of them means to know them in a personal, intimate way.
This is what is meant by God "knowing us before" (aka, foreknowing us) in Romans 8. He set his covenantal love upon us from eternity past.
2Ti_1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
The Bible is consistent in teaching this truth
How did you have an 'intimate' relationship with God before the foundation of the world? To have a relationship, you MUST have at least two parties. Where were you before the world was created? Do you believe in some strange reincarnation?
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Jack Terrence
Fighting the good fight
If elect believers were in Christ prior to earth or Adam being created, then they were justified before they were condemned in Adam. This is not possible. The elect were first condemned in Adam and afterwards justified in Christ.
The Greek preposition "ev" means "on the basis of" and indicates the grounds of our election and is NOT a statement about union with Him at all.
"According as He chose us on the basis of Him before the foundation of the world."
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