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CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.
Jesus was not an Arminian
- Thread starter Skala
- Start date
And belief is the condition for election.
1. Belief
2. Election of believers
3. Salvation of the elect
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Jack Terrence
Fighting the good fight
No. Belief is the consequence of election.
Paul: Chosen in Him before the foundation of the world.
gmm4j: Believed in Him before the foundation of the world.
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No. Belief is the consequence of election.
Paul: Chosen in Him before the foundation of the world.
gmm4j: Believed in Him before the foundation of the world.
You are only IN HIM by faith. He chooses those who are IN HIM by faith before the foundation of the world.
Rom 8:29
For those God foreknew he also predestined
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Jack Terrence
Fighting the good fight
Nobody can be "in Him" by faith before they have faith. No one can be "in Him" in the sense you speak of before the foundation of the world.
I use the expression "in Him" the way Paul meant it and not the way you use it. The Greek word "ev" (in) actually means "on the basis of."
Example:
"This is the new testament on the basis of (ev) my blood."
"Chosen on the basis of (ev) Him before the foundation of the world."
We were chosen on the basis of Him, that is, because of His atoning work and not because of faith. See Moulton's Analytical Greek Lexicon on the Greek preposition "ev."
It says that He foreknew THEM. It says nothing about their acts being foreknown. You assume too much.
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Election isn't an "experience". You cannot "experience" election !
We were elected unto salvation prior to the world -much less us- existing. We NEVER "experience" election. It's a state or condition.
As far as 'having to make a decision'...
Conversion is NOT something we do ! It's 100% by Grace. Therefore, it's something God does !
You can "decide" to be a Republican or Democrat. You can "decide" to like Obama. Conversion to Christ ain't similar to those things.
Instead: You find yourself believing Christ saved you. Saving Faith is a gifted faith that God gives us ( "it is the gift of God" Ephesians 2:8 NASB, NIV) !
.
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Faith is perfected or finished when the thing hoped for manifests and is fully realized.
Yes, Jesus is the Author of our faith, not by giving us belief, but by giving us something to believe in (His saving work on the cross). Faith is perfected when we know Him fully as we are fully known.
Faith is the substance of things hoped for...
Rom 8:24-25
For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what he already has? 25 But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.
Again, faith is given (authored) by giving something to believe in and faith is (completed/finished) when what we have been believing for is fully realized.
Blessings!
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So, on the basis of His atoning work that is applied by faith we were chosen. Okay
Foreknow - Does He intimately KNOW those not in union with Christ? And, does He foreknow them without knowing their acts or heart?
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Jack Terrence
Fighting the good fight
No! We were chosen on the basis of Him, that is, because of His atoning work apart from anything else. Why do you add to the word of God? There is no profit in it.
Don't be ridiculous. The elect could not have been in union with Christ BEFORE they were in union Adam. They were not in union with Adam before the foundation of the world. Therefore, they could not have been in union with Christ before the foundation of the world. God knew them on the basis of what Christ would do for them.
Okay, so you are saying that we are our own savior after all. You are saying that God knows us on the basis of our own acts rather than the acts of Christ. But Paul said,
"We were chosen on the basis of Him before the foundation of the world"
and,
"By the obedience of the one man the many were made righteous."
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What Christ would do for them was done for them in God before the foundation of the world.
Rev 13:8
Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
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G
guuila
Guest
“For you are a people holy to the LORD your God. The LORD your God has chosen you to be a people for his treasured possession, out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth. It was not because you were more in number than any other people that the LORD set his love on you and chose you, for you were the fewest of all peoples, but it is because the LORD loves you and is keeping the oath that he swore to your fathers, that the LORD has brought you out with a mighty hand and redeemed you from the house of slavery, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt. (Deuteronomy 7:6-8 ESV)
Interesting. That is the exact opposite of what synergists say. God says he chose Israel, not because of any quality they possessed, but rather because he loved them. Synergists tell us God chooses us because of some quality we possess compared to the non-elect who don't possess that trait. Huh.
Interesting. That is the exact opposite of what synergists say. God says he chose Israel, not because of any quality they possessed, but rather because he loved them. Synergists tell us God chooses us because of some quality we possess compared to the non-elect who don't possess that trait. Huh.
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NorrinRadd
Xian, Biblicist, Fideist, Pneumatic, Antinomian
- Sep 2, 2007
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Neh 9:7-8
"You are the LORD God, who chose Abram and brought him out of Ur of the Chaldeans and named him Abraham. 8 You found his heart faithful to you, and you made a covenant with him to give to his descendants the land of the Canaanites, Hittites, Amorites, Perizzites, Jebusites and Girgashites. You have kept your promise because you are righteous.
Gen 22:16-18
"I swear by myself, declares the LORD, that because you have done this and have not withheld your son, your only son, 17 I will surely bless you and make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as the sand on the seashore. Your descendants will take possession of the cities of their enemies, 18 and through your offspring all nations on earth will be blessed, because you have obeyed me."
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