Jesus was not an Arminian

[gmm4j]

“For you are a people holy to the LORD your God. The LORD your God has chosen you to be a people for his treasured possession, out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth. It was not because you were more in number than any other people that the LORD set his love on you and chose you, for you were the fewest of all peoples, but it is because the LORD loves you and is keeping the oath that he swore to your fathers, that the LORD has brought you out with a mighty hand and redeemed you from the house of slavery, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt. (Deuteronomy 7:6-8 ESV)

Interesting. That is the exact opposite of what synergists say. God says he chose Israel, not because of any quality they possessed, but rather because he loved them. Synergists tell us God chooses us because of some quality we possess compared to the non-elect who don't possess that trait. Huh.

“For you are a people holy to the LORD your God. The LORD your God has chosen you to be a people for his treasured possession, out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth. It was not because you were more in number than any other people that the LORD set his love on you and chose you, for you were the fewest of all peoples, but it is because the LORD loves you and is keeping the oath that he swore to your fathers, that the LORD has brought you out with a mighty hand and redeemed you from the house of slavery, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt. (Deuteronomy 7:6-8 ESV)

 

[cygnusx1]

What about Lutheranism?

You would have to ask Lutherans , I do know the Reformers Calvin Luther Zwingli differed on some things, yet salvation by grace , mans bondage of the will in sin etc wasn't where they disagreed , Lutherans today would perhaps deny or ignore Luthers best work , Bondage Of The Will

 

[gmm4j]

Yep. He foreknew people. Not actions about them. Eisegesis.

God is omniscient. He knows the number of hairs on the head of everyone who was, is, and is yet to be. Surely He knows their heart and future actions.

And, if He foreknows (intimately) people... Does He intimately know them outside of a union with Christ?

 

[NorrinRadd]

You would have to ask Lutherans , I do know the Reformers Calvin Luther Zwingli differed on some things, yet salvation by grace , mans bondage of the will in sin etc wasn't where they disagreed , Lutherans today would perhaps deny or ignore Luthers best work , Bondage Of The Will

My point was the assertion that "there is no in-between." The Lutheran view as described on that page is clearly not Calvinist, and I'm sure they would not identify themselves as Arminian, nor would Arminians agree if they did so. (In case you didn't click on the link, Lutherans hold to the "TU" of TULIP, and even then not the "double predestination" form of "U.")

 

[Arcoe]

Why was Abraham chosen?

Lincoln was elected by the people because they like him.

 

[Arcoe]

Yep. He foreknew people. Not actions about them. Eisegesis.

Who has God NOT foreknown?

Rom 8:29
For those God foreknew he also predestined...

 

[elman]

Why was Abraham chosen?

He was willing to go.

 

[cygnusx1]

Who has God NOT foreknown?

Rom 8:29
For those God foreknew he also predestined...

those who are not elect

 

[Skala]

God is omniscient. He knows the number of hairs on the head of everyone who was, is, and is yet to be. Surely He knows their heart and future actions.

Of course he does, but you keep trying to get Paul to say that the reason he predestined them is because he knew about their future faith. But he doesn't say that.

It's called eisegesis.

Mark my words, not a single time in the entire Bible are we told that God elected us in eternity past because he foresaw that we would believe.

On the contrary there's plenty of scripture that states that rather, we believe because we were elected.

See Acts 13:48 and 1 Corinthians 1:22-31 for the start of your study.

I would even argue that Rom 8:29-30 teaches this same thing. It does not say we were foreknown and predestined because He foresaw that we would answer the call and be justified. But rather, it says we are called and justified because we were predestined. Read the order of God's work in Rom 8:29-30. He foreknows and predestines, then calls those he predestined, then justifies those he calls. Being justified is predicated on being foreknown, not vice versa. The foundation of Arminianism is that we are foreknown predicated on being justified (ie, God foresees our saving faith)

 

[Erth]

Joh 17:15 I do not ask that you take them out of the world, but that you keep them from the evil one.

Arminians say that it is up to each person to stay away from evil. They say God would never actually effectually do something that results in one outcome over another. He must sit back (in order to be fair and just, of course) and not intervene or effectivelly bring about a result.

However here Jesus prays for God to actually do something effectual.

It is clear Jesus believed that God is sovereign over this affair, thus is able to pray God to effectually do something.

If Arminianism were true, Jesus would know better, and never ask God to do something that He knows God would not or could not do.

I wonder if it is possible that Jesus showed us how we should pray?

 

[gmm4j]

Of course he does, but you keep trying to get Paul to say that the reason he predestined them is because he knew about their future faith. But he doesn't say that.

It's called eisegesis.

Mark my words, not a single time in the entire Bible are we told that God elected us in eternity past because he foresaw that we would believe.

On the contrary there's plenty of scripture that states that rather, we believe because we were elected.

See Acts 13:48 and 1 Corinthians 1:22-31 for the start of your study.

I would even argue that Rom 8:29-30 teaches this same thing. It does not say we were foreknown and predestined because He foresaw that we would answer the call and be justified. But rather, it says we are called and justified because we were predestined. Read the order of God's work in Rom 8:29-30. He foreknows and predestines, then calls those he predestined, then justifies those he calls. Being justified is predicated on being foreknown, not vice versa. The foundation of Arminianism is that we are foreknown predicated on being justified (ie, God foresees our saving faith)

Okay Mr. exegesis,
In what sense are "those God foreknew" foreknown?

Rom 8:29
For those God foreknew he also predestined

 

[guuila]

It does not say we were foreknown and predestined because He foresaw that we would answer the call and be justified.

Amazing how consistent Paul is... he says the same exact thing here:

For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. (1 Corinthians 1:22-24 ESV)

Synergists - notice: The ones who are called are saved. There's no such thing as a person who is called only to end up *not* saved like you insist.

 

[JackSparrow]

Luke 6:13 And when it was day, he called unto him his disciples: and of them he chose twelve, whom also he named apostles;

....
16 And Judas the brother of James, and Judas Iscariot....

 

[gmm4j]

Amazing how consistent Paul is... he says the same exact thing here:

For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. (1 Corinthians 1:22-24 ESV)

Synergists - notice: The ones who are called are saved. There's no such thing as a person who is called only to end up *not* saved like you insist.

Matt 22:14
For many are called, but few are chosen.

 

[guuila]

Matt 22:14
For many are called, but few are chosen.

Congrats. By your confusing the general, outward call of the Gospel to repent and believe with the inward, effectual call of God that results in regeneration, you have effectively pitted the Bible against itself. Observe:

1 Cor. 1:22-24 says that every one called is saved.
Matt. 22:14 says there are people called who aren't saved.

So either the Bible contradicts itself, or your understanding is lacking. My vote is on the latter.

 

[crimsonleaf]

Luke 6:13 And when it was day, he called unto him his disciples: and of them he chose twelve, whom also he named apostles;

....
16 And Judas the brother of James, and Judas Iscariot....

Jack, Jesus choosing 12 men for a specific purpose says nothing about salvation. Of course we believe that they were all saved except one, but even he had a major part to play.

 

[Skala]

Okay Mr. exegesis,
In what sense are "those God foreknew" foreknown?

Rom 8:29
For those God foreknew he also predestined

The same way God "knows" people in these other verses:

Mat_7:23 And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you;

2Ti_2:19 But God's firm foundation stands, bearing this seal: "The Lord knows those who are his,"

Amo_3:2 "You only have I known of all the families of the earth; therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities.

In these examples, for God to "know" someone doesn't merely mean that he knows about them or their actions. it refers to an intimate knowledge, a relationship.

When Jesus said "I never knew you" in Mat 7:23, he wasn't merely saying that he didn't about their existence or about their actions. Obviously Jesus knows everyone, even those who perish. Therefore when he "knows" someone it means to know them intimately, to be in a relationship with them. The same is true of Amos 3:2. God said "you only have I known". Obviously he meant much more than knowing their existence. God knows every family on earth, not just Israel. So what did he mean by saying "I only know you among all the families". Obviously his "knowledge" of them means to know them in a personal, intimate way.

This is what is meant by God "knowing us before" (aka, foreknowing us) in Romans 8. He set his covenantal love upon us from eternity past.

2Ti_1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

The Bible is consistent in teaching this truth

 

[gmm4j]

it refers to an intimate knowledge, a relationship.

Can God have an intimate relationship with fallen men without them being in union with Christ by faith?

 

[Skala]

Can God have an intimate relationship with fallen men without them being in union with Christ by faith?

What good does it do to talk about what is "possible" and hypothetical?

Jesus himself said that he would tell those that perish "I never knew you". How is that not a clear enough answer? Whether he COULD or whether it was POSSIBLE for him to have an intimate relationship with them is irrelevant.

The fact is, he, himself, said that he didn't.

 

[gmm4j]

What good does it do to talk about what is "possible" and hypothetical?.

The answer is: He can't have an intimate relationship with fallen men without them being united to Christ.

And, how are the foreknown (who are in an intimate relationship with God) united to Christ?


Hab 1:13
Your eyes are too pure to look on evil; you cannot tolerate wrong.