Jesus prophesied that we would be keeping the Sabbath until He returns in Matthew 24

[Clare73]

Agree, and as presented it certainly does not say we are free to break God’s commandments as long as we love each other.

It also doesn't say the moon is blue. . relevance?

Love is keeping the commandments of God 1 John 5:3 which is why the commandments are summarized by love. Love is the motivating factor for obedience to God and faith to do what He commands of us is because it is for our own good.

Here are the patients of the saints, here are those who keep the commandments of God and faith in Jesus. Revelation 14:12

Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. Revelation 22:14


Summary does not mean deletion as Paul reminds us in 1 Cor 7:19 and Jesus in Matthew 15:3-9, Matthew 19:17-19, Matthew 5:19-30 John 15:10, John 14:15

Who said anything about not believing Paul, unless your are referring to someone else. I just don’t believe Paul contradicts himself or Jesus and Romans 13:9 works in harmony with 1 Cor 7:19 and the other scriptures posted not against.

Much ado about nothing. . .love is the fulfillment of the law (Ro 13:10).

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Much ado about nothing. . .love is the fulfillment of the law (Ro 13:10).

If love is the fulfillment of the law when we keep the law, what does that mean when we break God’s commandments. Love is obedience to God so being disobedient to God is the opposite of love. 1 John 5:3. Love does no harm to God or to our neighbor which is what the commandments of God is designed for, built on love. Exodus 20:6 When we break God’s commandments, that shows a lack of love and faith and does harm to God and neighbor. Sin is the transgression of God’s law 1 John 3:4, Romans 7:7 which is what separated man from God and that is harmful. Jesus said if you love Me, keep My commandments. John 14:15 not love Me and not keep My commandment or keep them if you feel like it.

Anyway, we will probably have to agree to disagree.

Take care.

 

[Clare73]

If love is the fulfillment of the law when we keep the law, what does that mean when we break God’s commandments. Love is obedience to God so being disobedient to God is the opposite of love. 1 John 5:3. Love does no harm to God or to our neighbor which is what the commandments of God is designed for, built on love. When we break God’s commandments, that shows a lack of love and faith and does harm to God and neighbor. Sin is the transgression of God’s law 1 John 3:4, Romans 7:7 which is what separated man from God and that is harmful.

Anyway, we will probably have to agree to disagree.

Take care.

Don't know why you would disagree with Ro 13:8-10.

 

[Lulav]

Both of you completely miss my point. Love is not commanded in the ten commandments. Sure, if the Israelites loved God and their fellow man, they would love to do what God instructed them to do out of that love. They could also do them out of fear or obligation. Why is that so hard to see and understand? By the way 2Cor3:6-11 tells us the ten commandments were the ministry of death. The KJV tells us they were done away, other versions tell us they were only temporary. The Holy Spirit has been given to all mankind as our guide. Notice the verses that are in past tense. That should tell us something.
7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?

9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.

10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.

11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.

Then there is Eph2:14-15 to be reckoned with. 14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace,

The Law was the barrier that kept Jews and Gentiles separated. I thank our Savior for the new command He gave us in Jn15:9-14 “As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10 If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love. 11 I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. 12 My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends. 14 You are my friends if you do what I command.

What were the commands that Jesus kept? Of course they were the commands of the old covenant. Jesus in those verses is telling us in those verses it is not the commands He kept that we are to keep, it is the new and better way we are to live our lives while waiting for eternity. What the World need is Love sweet Love.

Then I guess Paul and Jesus were not in sinc.

Jesus was asked what the greatest commandment was, he did not respond with, "None really because they all lead to death'' or ' All you need is love'

No he said this:

"On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. "​

They are interconnected. As I showed on the diagram I made, The ten are about loving God and Loving your fellow man in a nutshell.

How to love God?
1. By acknowledging that YHVH is your God
2. Regard no other gods above him
3. Do not use his name YHVH without true purpose
4. Sanctify him by keeping the one day he proclaimed as set apart, HOLY in the way he says to
5. Honor him as your heavenly Father

How to love your fellow man?

5. Respect your parents
6. Do not intentionally kill someone (murder)
7. Keep only to the one you married
8. Do not take from anyone that which is not yours
9. Do not lie about someone
10. Do not want something someone else has, property, family, wife, riches, fame, etc.

 

[Lulav]

The four gospels are not the full NT revelation, for there was much Jesus could not reveal before his atoning death.

In the light of full NT revelation, all the commandments are fulfilled by simply loving our neighbor as ourself and loving God more than ourself; i.e., submitting to all the New Covenant commands found throughout the NT writings.

Why do you resist this new revelation of the New Covenant (Ro 13:8-10),
where the law of God is written on our hearts, not in a written code (Heb 8:10)
and where the law written on our hearts requires every so much more than simply doing no harm to our neighbor?

Why do you resist the NT revelation of the obsoleteness of the Old Covenant (Heb 8:13)?

Paul came along it is said about 4-7 years after the resurrection. Years after that we read in Acts 21

17And when we were come to Jerusalem, the brethren received us gladly. 18And the day following Paul went in with us unto James; and all the elders were present. 19And when he had saluted them, he declared particularly what things God had wrought among the Gentiles by his ministry. 20And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law: 21And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs. 22What is it therefore? the multitude must needs come together: for they will hear that thou art come. 23Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them; 24Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.


If it's so 'obsolete' then why did James get on Paul for supposedly teaching not to keep the law? They had heard that was what he was doing. Not just him but Thousands of Messianic Jewish believers. None of them believed the Law given to Moses was obsolete.

"submitting to all the New Covenant commands found throughout the NT writings."

And what would those be? And why would you have to submit to something that is already written on your heart?

 

[Bob S]

Lulav wrote: Then I guess Paul and Jesus were not in sinc.

Why would you even think such a thing? During Jesus life here on this sinful planet He lived under the old covenant as did all He taught. Paul lived under both the old and new covenants. We are not privy as to how Jesus taught Paul, but we do know after his experience while traveling to Damascus he received the Holy Spirit at his conversion. We all need to remember that Jeremiah's prophecy said the new covenant would not be like the old one.

Yes, what Paul taught and recorded in the Holy Writ was new and different from what Jesus taught. I will quote Eph 214 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace, Those who are teaching that we are somehow under the dictates of the old covenant are denying that we are under the new and final covenant God will ever give to mankind on this Earth. God's covenant to Israel was exclusive to Israel. No other nation on Earth was subject to that covenant. The new and better covenant is inclusive for all nations on this Earth. To deny what Paul and the other New Testament writers taught is denying what Jesus came and suffered for all mankind. Old covenant ritual laws are past. Laws dealing with morality are forever. They were part of the old covenant and are prominent in the new, LOVE.

Jesus was asked what the greatest commandment was, he did not respond with, "None really because they all lead to death'' or ' All you need is love'

Yep, the greatest command ever given is to love others as Jesus loves us. Love was NOT one of the ten commands.
1 Corinthians 13:1
If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal.
1 Corinthians 13:2
If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.
1 Corinthians 13:3
If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing.
1 Corinthians 13:4
Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud.
1 Corinthians 13:6
Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth.
1 Corinthians 13:8
Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away.

No he said this:

"On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. "​

Gal5:18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

They are interconnected. As I showed on the diagram I made, The ten are about loving God and Loving your fellow man in a nutshell.

Once again, I refute that line of reasoning. They are not about loving anything. They are commands and commands cannot dictate love. Love comes from our hearts and prompted by the Holy Spirit. Love covers all aspects of morality.

 

[Bob S]

Lulav wrote:

If it's so 'obsolete' then why did James get on Paul for supposedly teaching not to keep the law?

Please provide scripture because I don't believe James ever refuted what Paul wrote.

 

[Clare73]

Paul came along it is said about 4-7 years after the resurrection. Years after that we read in Acts 21

17And when we were come to Jerusalem, the brethren received us gladly. 18And the day following Paul went in with us unto James; and all the elders were present. 19And when he had saluted them, he declared particularly what things God had wrought among the Gentiles by his ministry. 20And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law: 21And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs. 22What is it therefore? the multitude must needs come together: for they will hear that thou art come. 23Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them; 24Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.

If it's so 'obsolete'

So you deny the NT in Heb 8:7-13?

 

[Lulav]

So you deny the NT in Heb 8:7-13?

Don't jump to strawmen.

The question is, if the commandments of GOD were obsolete then why didn't Paul argue with James about it and tell him that they were done away with?

 

[Bob S]

Don't jump to strawmen.

The question is, if the commandments of GOD were obsolete then why didn't Paul argue with James about it and tell him that they were done away with?

It seems you don't believe what Paul wrote in 2Cor3:6-11 as being the truth about the ten commandments. Then there is Eph2:14-15.

Did you not read where I ask you to provide scripture for your statement about James and Paul?

 

[Leaf473]

Don't jump to strawmen.

The question is, if the commandments of GOD were obsolete then why didn't Paul argue with James about it and tell him that they were done away with?

(At the risk of derailing the train of thought, I offer this perspective. And I definitely encourage @Clare73 to continue with whatever line of reasoning she was using.)

To the Jews, Paul presents himself as a Jew.

Even today, many Jews who accept Jesus as the Messiah continue celebrating things like Passover and the feast of booths. Generally speaking, I don't make an issue out of that with them.

Peace be with you all

 

[Clare73]

Don't jump to strawmen.

Then address the fact that you deny Heb 8:13.

The question is, if the commandments of GOD were obsolete then why didn't Paul argue with James about it and tell him that they were done away with?

The fact is: you deny the NT text of Heb 8:13?

Why?

 

[BobRyan]

Indeed!

And the context in which Jesus lived and taught was under the Law.

Moses and Elijah stand with Christ in glory in Matt 17 - saved by grace through faith... and all that - before the cross ever happened.

Because as Gal 1:6-9 points out -- there has always been only "one gospel" and that gospel was also preached to Abraham Gal 3:8 back in Genesis.

The New Covenant - Jer 31:31-34 is Old Testament.

Heb 10:4 points out that no forgiveness at all happened in the OT due to the blood of bulls and goats. They could not forgive even one single sin. All the forgiveness that happened then - was via the blood of Christ a God could see it - even though man could not.

 

[BobRyan]

Don't jump to strawmen.

The question is, if the commandments of GOD were obsolete then why didn't Paul argue with James about it and tell him that they were done away with?

Amen! In fact Paul himself argues for the Law in Rom 3:31 "do we then make void the Law of God by our faith?? God forbid! In fact we establish the Law of God!"

So also in 1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" where that unit of Law is structured such that -- according to Paul -- "The first commandment with a promise is - Honor yourmfather and Mother" Eph 6:1-2

 

[BobRyan]

It seems you don't believe what Paul wrote in 2Cor3:6-11 as being the truth about the ten commandments. Then there is Eph2:14-15.

Then there is
1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" where that unit of Law is structured such that -- according to Paul -- "The first commandment with a promise is - Honor yourmfather and Mother" Eph 6:1-2

 

[BobRyan]

So you deny the NT in Heb 8:7-13?

Heb 8 is a direct quote of Jer 31:31-34 - the New Covenant of the OLD Testament stating that the "Law of God" as known to Jeremiah and his readers -- is written on the heart and mind - in that one-and-only New Covenant of the OLD Testament.

 

[BobRyan]

Gal5:18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

Not under it's condemnation --- and we can then join with Paul as he says in Rom 3:31 "do we then make void the Law of God by our faith?? God forbid! In fact we establish the Law of God!"

1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" where that unit of Law is structured such that -- according to Paul -- "The first commandment with a promise is - Honor yourmfather and Mother" Eph 6:1-2

Which means it is "still a sin" even in the NT - to "take God's name in vain"

 

[Clare73]

Heb 8 is a direct quote of Jer 31:31-34 - the New Covenant of the OLD Testament stating that the "Law of God" as known to Jeremiah and his readers -- is written on the heart and mind - in that one-and-only New Covenant of the OLD Testament.

Heb 8:13 is not a quote of Jer 31:31-34, rather it is a statement of the obsolesence of the Old Mosiac Covenant.

 

[Lulav]

Why would you even think such a thing? During Jesus life here on this sinful planet He lived under the old covenant as did all He taught. Paul lived under both the old and new covenants. We are not privy as to how Jesus taught Paul, but we do know after his experience while traveling to Damascus he received the Holy Spirit at his conversion. We all need to remember that Jeremiah's prophecy said the new covenant would not be like the old one.

Yes, what Paul taught and recorded in the Holy Writ was new and different from what Jesus taught. I will quote Eph 214 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace, Those who are teaching that we are somehow under the dictates of the old covenant are denying that we are under the new and final covenant God will ever give to mankind on this Earth. God's covenant to Israel was exclusive to Israel. No other nation on Earth was subject to that covenant. The new and better covenant is inclusive for all nations on this Earth. To deny what Paul and the other New Testament writers taught is denying what Jesus came and suffered for all mankind. Old covenant ritual laws are past. Laws dealing with morality are forever. They were part of the old covenant and are prominent in the new, LOVE.



Yep, the greatest command ever given is to love others as Jesus loves us. Love was NOT one of the ten commands.
1 Corinthians 13:1
If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal.
1 Corinthians 13:2
If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.
1 Corinthians 13:3
If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing.
1 Corinthians 13:4
Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud.
1 Corinthians 13:6
Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth.
1 Corinthians 13:8
Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away.



Gal5:18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.


Once again, I refute that line of reasoning. They are not about loving anything. They are commands and commands cannot dictate love. Love comes from our hearts and prompted by the Holy Spirit. Love covers all aspects of morality.

I guess then the maker of Love didn't know what he was talking about nor what he taught his people.

 

[BobRyan]

Clare73 said:

So you deny the NT in Heb 8:7-13?

Well in the case of Heb 8:7-13

BobRyan said:
Heb 8 is a direct quote of Jer 31:31-34 - the New Covenant of the OLD Testament stating that the "Law of God" as known to Jeremiah and his readers -- is written on the heart and mind - in that one-and-only New Covenant of the OLD Testament.

Heb 8:13 is not a quote of Jer 31:31-34, rather it is a statement of the obsolesence of the Old Mosiac Covenant.

Your post included Heb 8:7-13 which is a direct quote of of the NEW Covenant in Jer 31:31-34. The New Covenant is Old Testament and Heb 8 reminds us that the New Covenant is "unchanged" verbatim the same in the NT.

It tells us that the "Law of God " known to Jeremiah and his readers is written on the heart in the NEW Covenant.

Paul reminds us in Eph 6:1-2 --- that the LAW mentioned above - includes Ex 20:12 "honor your father and mother"
James 2 reminds us that it includes more than that from the Law of Moses.

BTW: Heb 8:13 does not use the term "Law of Moses" at all.

7 For if that first covenant had been free of fault, no circumstances would have been sought for a second. 8 For in finding fault with the people, He says,

“Behold, days are coming, says the Lord,
When I will bring about a new covenant
With the house of Israel and the house of Judah,
9 Not like the covenant which I made with their fathers
On the day I took them by the hand
To bring them out of the land of Egypt;
For they did not continue in My covenant,
And I did not care about them, says the Lord.

10 For this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel
After those days, declares the Lord:
I will put My laws into their minds,
And write them on their hearts.
And I will be their God,
And they shall be My people.
11 And they will not teach, each one his fellow citizen,
And each one his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’
For they will all know Me,
From the least to the greatest of them.
12 For I will be merciful toward their wrongdoings,
And their sins I will no longer remember.”

13 When He said, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is about to disappear.

Also note

"Love your neighbor as yourself' Lev 19:18 -- is "Law of Moses"
"Love God with all your heart" Deut 6:5 -- is "Law of Moses".