Jesus prophesied that we would be keeping the Sabbath until He returns in Matthew 24

[BobRyan]

From whom did Abel learn how to offer sacrifices before Cain killed him?

Adam and Eve had to offer animal blood sacrifice after they fell into sin.

But they did not fall on day 7.

Genesis 3 happens outside of the 7 days of creation week.

Where did people get the idea that they had to kill an animal to please God back then?

From God

Where did Noah get the information for "clean and unclean animals" in Gen 7? Answer: -- from God.

God had a reason to kill an animal for Adam and Eve's clothes. But how did Abel come up with the idea of killing an animal and giving it to God as a sacrifice? What would Abel do if the Sabbath was observed?

As I said - I am sure that however long it was between Gen 2 and Gen 3 - they were not offering animal sacrifices. But after the fall recorded in Gen 3 - they started doing that.

 

[Mark Quayle]

God told King Hezekiah what He was going to do, but on the same day He changed His mind. (2 Kings 20:1-6)

V1… The prophet Isaiah son of Amoz came to him and said, “This is what the LORD says: ‘Put your house in order, for you are about to die; you will not recover.’ ”​

V5 Go back and tell Hezekiah the leader of My people that this is what the LORD, the God of your father David, says: ‘I have heard your prayer; I have seen your tears. I will surely heal you…​

In John 7, Jesus did the same thing.

V8 Go up to the feast on your own. I am not going up to this feast,…​

V10 But after His brothers had gone up to the feast, He also went…​

God's goal never changed, not the way he got there. Because He knew from the start what He wanted to do.

Change is also the removal of instructions about how to offer a sacrifice. If God can't change His mind, how come He told people to burn sacrifices that would be taken away at a later time?

The notion that God only predestines ('plans', 'decrees', 'causes' —whatever), his larger goals, keeps popping its ugly head up. I hope that is not what you are saying.

I like something RC Sproul said in one of his lectures, something to the effect that the Church which used to lead the way in the pursuit of logic has somehow lately begun to disrespect it as "not-faith". I agree with him completely, and the notion that God only has in mind the larger goals is logically vapid. I have to go do something I promised, so I leave this for now. If you want to know how that notion is not only logically vapid but also unscriptural, let me know. I, and several others have an answer.

 

[Lulav]

God told King Hezekiah what He was going to do, but on the same day He changed His mind. (2 Kings 20:1-6)

V1… The prophet Isaiah son of Amoz came to him and said, “This is what the LORD says: ‘Put your house in order, for you are about to die; you will not recover.’ ”V5 Go back and tell Hezekiah the leader of My people that this is what the LORD, the God of your father David, says: ‘I have heard your prayer; I have seen your tears. I will surely heal you…

20 In those days was Hezekiah sick unto death. And the prophet Isaiah the son of Amoz came to him, and said unto him, Thus saith the Lord, Set thine house in order; for thou shalt die, and not live.​

2 Then he turned his face to the wall, and prayed unto the Lord, saying,​

3 I beseech thee, O Lord, remember now how I have walked before thee in truth and with a perfect heart, and have done that which is good in thy sight. And Hezekiah wept sore.​

4 And it came to pass, afore Isaiah was gone out into the middle court, that the word of the Lord came to him, saying,​

5 Turn again, and tell Hezekiah the captain of my people, Thus saith the Lord, the God of David thy father, I have heard thy prayer, I have seen thy tears: behold, I will heal thee: on the third day thou shalt go up unto the house of the Lord.​

---------------------------------------
Many people that are on the verge of death, without divine intervention they will die at their appointed time. However the LORD gave Hezekiah a heads up that he would not recover which kicked Hezekiah into gear and he prayed to the LORD to heal him. The LORD answered his prayer and healed him and extended his life.

He did not 'change his mind' he knew aforetime what would happen. Had he not prayed to the LORD he would have died then.

 

[Cornelius8L]

Adam and Eve had to offer animal blood sacrifice after they fell into sin.

But they did not fall on day 7.

Genesis 3 happens outside of the 7 days of creation week.

From God

Where did Noah get the information for "clean and unclean animals" in Gen 7? Answer: -- from God.

As I said - I am sure that however long it was between Gen 2 and Gen 3 - they were not offering animal sacrifices. But after the fall recorded in Gen 3 - they started doing that.

So, how did Abel observe the Sabbath?

 

[BobRyan]

As I said - I am sure that however long it was between Gen 2 and Gen 3 - they were not offering animal sacrifices. But after the fall recorded in Gen 3 - they started doing that.

So, how did Abel observe the Sabbath?

By the time Cain and Able come along - mankind is fallen in sin - their worship (whether on Sabbath or not) would include no priests,,, but animal sacrifice.

• But that is not what it is in Gen 2:1-3,
• is not what it is in Is 66:23 for all eternity after the cross in the new Earth.
• And is not what it is in Acts 18:4 "every Sabbath" as Paul preaches the Gospel in worship services to gentiles and Jews.

As already noted.

Are you planning a trip in a time machine??

 

[Cornelius8L]

The notion that God only predestines ('plans', 'decrees', 'causes' —whatever), his larger goals, keeps popping its ugly head up. I hope that is not what you are saying.

I like something RC Sproul said in one of his lectures, something to the effect that the Church which used to lead the way in the pursuit of logic has somehow lately begun to disrespect it as "not-faith". I agree with him completely, and the notion that God only has in mind the larger goals is logically vapid. I have to go do something I promised, so I leave this for now. If you want to know how that notion is not only logically vapid but also unscriptural, let me know. I, and several others have an answer.

I think we were talking about what God changes and what God does not change. I just gave some examples of God changing.

 

[Cornelius8L]

20 In those days was Hezekiah sick unto death. And the prophet Isaiah the son of Amoz came to him, and said unto him, Thus saith the Lord, Set thine house in order; for thou shalt die, and not live.​

2 Then he turned his face to the wall, and prayed unto the Lord, saying,​

3 I beseech thee, O Lord, remember now how I have walked before thee in truth and with a perfect heart, and have done that which is good in thy sight. And Hezekiah wept sore.​

4 And it came to pass, afore Isaiah was gone out into the middle court, that the word of the Lord came to him, saying,​

5 Turn again, and tell Hezekiah the captain of my people, Thus saith the Lord, the God of David thy father, I have heard thy prayer, I have seen thy tears: behold, I will heal thee: on the third day thou shalt go up unto the house of the Lord.​

---------------------------------------
Many people on on the verge of death, without divine intervention they will die at their appointed time. However the LORD gave Hezekiah a heads up that he would not recover which kicked Hezekiah into gear and he prayed to the LORD to heal him. The LORD answered his prayer and healed him and extended his life.

He did not 'change his mind' he knew aforetime what would happen. Had he not prayed to the LORD he would have died then.

"Thus saith the Lord, Set thine house in order; for thou shalt die, and not live." - God asked him to set things in order. God intended to receive him back. Doesn't seem like asking him to pray for recovery.

 

[Cornelius8L]

By the time Cain and Able come along - mankind is fallen in sin - their worship (whether on Sabbath or not) would include no priests,,, but animal sacrifice.

• But that is not what it is in Gen 2:1-3,
• is not what it is in Is 66:23 for all eternity after the cross in the new Earth.
• And is not what it is in Acts 18:4 "every Sabbath" as Paul preaches the Gospel in worship services to gentiles and Jews.

As already noted.

Are you planning a trip in a time machine??

Only priest can make sacrifices. Melchizedek is a priest. Noah is also a priest. King Saul sinned because he thought he can offer sacrifices.

 

[BobRyan]

Only priest can make sacrifices.

Only at the time of Sinai - before that all the patriarchs did it.

Which does not matter for the Sabbath of course since

• No animal sacrifice need the holy day in Gen 2:1-3,
• No animal sacrifice in Sabbath services in Is 66:23 for all eternity after the cross in the new Earth.
• No animal sacrifices in Acts 18:4 "every Sabbath" as Paul preaches the Gospel in worship services to gentiles and Jews.

 

[BobRyan]

King Saul sinned because he thought he can offer sacrifices.

There is no indication that King Saul was charged with Sabbath breaking - and all Bible scholars affirm that the Sabbath was given by the time of King Saul.

Are you changing topics??

 

[Lulav]

Only priest can make sacrifices. Melchizedek is a priest. Noah is also a priest. King Saul sinned because he thought he can offer sacrifices.

Abraham made sacrifices when he cut the covenant with the LORD
Not to mention when he obeyed and took Isaac up to the mountain, he didn't sacrifice him but was prepared to but instead he found the ram caught in the thicket and sacrificed him.

Genesis 31:54​

Then Jacob offered sacrifice upon the mount, and called his brethren to eat bread: and they did eat bread, and tarried all night in the mount.​

​

Genesis 46:1​

And Israel took his journey with all that he had, and came to Beersheba, and offered sacrifices unto the God of his father Isaac.​

Exodus is full of words about sacrificing, before they left Egypt, and before a Priesthood was initiated.......... Not to mention the sacrifice of the Passover while still in Egypt, each head of the household was the priest.

 

[Lulav]

From whom did Abel learn how to offer sacrifices before Cain killed him?

From his parents who learned of this when they sinned.

Where did people get the idea that they had to kill an animal to please God back then? God had a reason to kill an animal for Adam and Eve's clothes. But how did Abel come up with the idea of killing an animal and giving it to God as a sacrifice?

Eating from the tree of the knowledge of not just evil but of good could have given them an inkling or God could have directly spoken to them and told them. After Cain killed Abel the LORD spoke to him so it is entirely possible.
We know that the LORD had to have told him because the offering Abel gave was not just an animal, it was a 'firstling' proper age, and most likely without blemish, also the fat which is found in Leviticus. That's why the LORD respected Abels offerering but Cain just brought something out of his garden. It was not a firstfruit, the best.

What would Abel do if the Sabbath was observed?

We have no direct observance but we do know that his father and mother were present on the first Sabbath.

Even more so, if it wasn't there, there would be no way to keep it holy because the way hadn't been set. Since the beginning, worship has been about in spirit and in truth (This, God never change).

Not sure what you're thinking or saying here but I'm sure they understood what it meant to work 6 days and rest on the 7th.

 

[Lulav]

"Thus saith the Lord, Set thine house in order; for thou shalt die, and not live." - God asked him to set things in order. God intended to receive him back. Doesn't seem like asking him to pray for recovery.

As I said, the LORD spoke through the prophet to tell him his expiration date was coming soon. Because the LORD knew when it would be and after hearing his prayers he extended his 'expiration date' does not mean he changed his mind.

Psalm 139 is a really good read, but here is a pertinent part:

When you were putting me together there,
16 your eyes saw my body even before it was formed.
You planned how many days I would live.
You wrote down the number of them in your book
before I had lived through even one of them.

So we can see it was already planned out.

 

[Cornelius8L]

• No animal sacrifice in Sabbath services in Is 66:23 for all eternity after the cross in the new Earth.
• No animal sacrifices in Acts 18:4 "every Sabbath" as Paul preaches the Gospel in worship services to gentiles and Jews.

Paul made spiritual sacrifices because he became a priest in the same way that we are today.

Only at the time of Sinai - before that all the patriarchs did it.

Which does not matter for the Sabbath of course since

• No animal sacrifice need the holy day in Gen 2:1-3,

Abraham made sacrifices when he cut the covenant with the LORD
Not to mention when he obeyed and took Isaac up to the mountain, he didn't sacrifice him but was prepared to but instead he found the ram caught in the thicket and sacrificed him.

Genesis 31:54Then Jacob offered sacrifice upon the mount, and called his brethren to eat bread: and they did eat bread, and tarried all night in the mount.Genesis 46:1And Israel took his journey with all that he had, and came to Beersheba, and offered sacrifices unto the God of his father Isaac.
Exodus is full of words about sacrificing, before they left Egypt, and before a Priesthood was initiated.......... Not to mention the sacrifice of the Passover while still in Egypt, each head of the household was the priest.

That means that God changed His mind about who can make sacrifices. But if making sacrifices has always been a priestly job. This just means that the patriarchs were priests, just like us. Just that it wasn't written down that way, but the pattern of truth is still the same.

There is no indication that King Saul was charged with Sabbath breaking - and all Bible scholars affirm that the Sabbath was given by the time of King Saul.

Are you changing topics??

Nope, I'm using an example to show that only priests can offer sacrifices.

 

[Cornelius8L]

From his parents who learned of this when they sinned.
Eating from the tree of the knowledge of not just evil but of good could have given them an inkling or God could have directly spoken to them and told them. After Cain killed Abel the LORD spoke to him so it is entirely possible.
We know that the LORD had to have told him because the offering Abel gave was not just an animal, it was a 'firstling' proper age, and most likely without blemish, also the fat which is found in Leviticus. That's why the LORD respected Abels offerering but Cain just brought something out of his garden. It was not a firstfruit, the best.

We have no direct observance but we do know that his father and mother were present on the first Sabbath.

Agree. God could have directly spoken to them and told them.

Not sure what you're thinking or saying here but I'm sure they understood what it meant to work 6 days and rest on the 7th.

Just saying that there were no instructions for how to keep the sabbath in Genesis.

 

[BobRyan]

Paul made spiritual sacrifices because he became a priest in the same way that we are today.

1. Paul was a Pharisee not a jewish priest.
2. The priesthood of all believers allows all to make spiritual sacrifices every day but that is not what Heb 10:4-12 is talking about - obviously.

That means that God changed His mind about who can make sacrifices.

You are conflating two different topics.

Daniel is also not a priest in Dan 9 yet he is interceding for himself and for his nation's sins - in prayer directly to God. A spiritual sacrifice - but no animal sacrifice.

You are changing subjects in the middle of the discussion.

But if making sacrifices has always been a priestly job. This just means that the patriarchs were priests

If you are talking about animal sacrifices that ended as Heb 10:4-12 said - at the cross -- that is one thing.

If you are talking about spiritual sacrifices , direct access to God in prayer and worship as we see in Dan 9:1-4 -- well that does not end at the cross and has always been at the individual level.

details.

 

[Lulav]

Agree. God could have directly spoken to them and told them.

Just saying that there were no instructions for how to keep the sabbath in Genesis.

It was an Oral Torah, just like in the garden

​

16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:​

17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.​

These things were handed down orally, passed from father to son just like in many cultures.

 

[Cornelius8L]

1. Paul was a Pharisee not a jewish priest.

Paul was not a Jewish priest, so he cannot offer a physical sacrifice. So, we won't see him offer sacrifices in the New Testament. But if he was a priest, he would do it because he was someone who will follow the customs for the sake of the people (like circumcising Timothy).

2. The priesthood of all believers allows all to make spiritual sacrifices every day but that is not what Heb 10:4-12 is talking about - obviously.

Heb. 10:4–12 doesn’t mean that there is no forgiveness of sin for those who sin again after Heb. 10:4–12. If someone sin again after Heb 10:4–12, is it by spiritual sacrifices that they were forgiven. We can all agree that the cross put an end to physical sacrifices, but not to spiritual ones.

You are conflating two different topics.

Daniel is also not a priest in Dan 9 yet he is interceding for himself and for his nation's sins - in prayer directly to God. A spiritual sacrifice - but no animal sacrifice.

You are changing subjects in the middle of the discussion.

Yes, many things are connected, and Daniel was doing the work of a spiritual priest. I didn't mean to add other subjects, but it turned out this way because we talked about sacrifices that have to do with priesthood.

But if making sacrifices has always been a priestly job. This just means that the patriarchs were priests,

If you are talking about animal sacrifices that ended as Heb 10:4-12 said - at the cross -- that is one thing.

If you are talking about spiritual sacrifices , direct access to God in prayer and worship as we see in Dan 9:1-4 -- well that does not end at the cross and has always been at the individual level.

details.

By law, physical sacrifices need a physical priest. If Oral Torah existed before the Mosaic law, as @Lulav suggested, and the law shouldn't change, then the patriarchs were also priests.