Italy makes vaccination compulsory

[HannahT]

(Shrugs) I remember the polio vaccine, and people couldn't rush fast enough to get it. People had seen the devastation left behind.

I think part of the problem is many haven't seen the devastation left behind from not being able to have - or they haven't seen invented yet - vaccines.

 

[JackRT]

I remember a polio outbreak in my town in the early 1950s. People were absolutely terrified! The streets were deserted and the stores empty. No one left their house unless absolutely necessary. Then Jonas Saulk developed his vaccine. It was rushed into production and I can recall no one naysaying. People flocked to the vaccination stations and stayed there till the vaccines ran out and then lined up again in the morning. People saw what it could do and the photos of patients in the iron lungs. Smallpox is eradicated and polio almost unknown. Tuberculosis, diptheria, typhoid. We don't want to go back.

 

[Trogdor the Burninator]

(Shrugs) I remember the polio vaccine, and people couldn't rush fast enough to get it. People had seen the devastation left behind.

I think part of the problem is many haven't seen the devastation left behind from not being able to have - or they haven't seen invented yet - vaccines.

Exactly. The anti-vaxxers I've come across have all been middle-aged to young westerners living in western countries - in other words people who have likely never seen an outbreak of one of these diseases or what it does to people.

Talk to people who grew up in Asia (and probably Africa as well) and they genuinely don't understand why people would balk at the chance to get a vaccine that they (at least the older ones) never had the chance to get. A friend of mine contracted Polio when they were young because the vaccine wasn't available. Luckily they lived but ended up with a twisted spine and still walk with a limp to this day because of it.

 

[Landon Caeli]

Well, all my kids were vaccinated. I don't do the flu shot, and I always lie and say I had a tetanus shot last year, but other than that we're pretty healthy.

 

[Quid est Veritas?]

It is not possible for Medicine to have some great conspiracy. Modern Medicine operates by the arcane statistical rules of Evidence-Based Medicine (EBM). It is a tyranny of numbers, unfeeling and cold, which largely determines what treatments doctors advocate. If the complication rates of a drug or treatment are higher than the illness it opposes, it is discontinued.
EBM was created to oppose human bias and lessen our adherence to opinion. It uses double-blind trials, placebos, retrospective cohort studies etc. to render as deductively sound verdict as possible. Researchers are largely kept in the dark themselves on findings until the final tally. If there is one field of human endeavour least susceptible to manipulation, it is medicine. Even though some studies may be flawed, they are easily shown as such or rendered an outlier or statistical anomaly.

The anti-vaccine movement's gullibility beggars belief and show a fundamental misunderstanding of the nature of the medical profession. Few doctors would advocate something they thought harmful, not only on the ground of ethics or professional repercussions, but from a personal grounds as well.

 

[trunks2k]

I think part of the problem is many haven't seen the devastation left behind from not being able to have - or they haven't seen invented yet - vaccines.

This is exactly the issue. Most of us now have grown up in a world where the diseases that we get routine vaccinations for are no longer prevalent (because we get routine vaccinations). We don't remember the period of time when polio was a serious risk, or that measles was very common childhood disease. So our risk analysis is way off. We don't see the effect of the disease, so it's way too easy for people to think "What's the big deal? Why should I put my child at even a tiny risk of $_BADTHING from a vaccine, when we won't get the disease anyways. Even if we got the disease, it can't be that bad".

Of course, when there's a big breakout of a preventable disease, like the measles outbreak in CA, there's sudden change in risk analysis.

 

[JackRT]

This is exactly the issue. Most of us now have grown up in a world where the diseases that we get routine vaccinations for are no longer prevalent (because we get routine vaccinations). We don't remember the period of time when polio was a serious risk, or that measles was very common childhood disease. So our risk analysis is way off. We don't see the effect of the disease, so it's way too easy for people to think "What's the big deal? Why should I put my child at even a tiny risk of $_BADTHING from a vaccine, when we won't get the disease anyways. Even if we got the disease, it can't be that bad".

Of course, when there's a big breakout of a preventable disease, like the measles outbreak in CA, there's sudden change in risk analysis.

What is even worse is when the parents of a sick child decide to just pray the disease away. They ignore the advice of friends and/or relatives and do not seek medical help till the child is on death's door.

 

[Joshua_5]

But back to my question? Where are the anti-vaxxer hospitals and medical practices???

When you sack medical staff for questioning vaccines, you tend not to have many medical staff left who (openly) question vaccines. Its simple, but I don't expect most people to get it, so if you don't, you won't be alone.

 

[Joshua_5]

It uses double-blind trials, placebos, retrospective cohort studies etc. to render as deductively sound verdict as possible

Except vaccines are not required to undergo double-blind trials as most drugs are, and manufacturers are protected by law against claims for injury, contrary to other drugs. Those ignorant folk who reject vaccines claim that's because such trials would disprove the claims of the vaccine pushers, or without protection laws, vaccine manufacturers would be sued out of business.

 

[Trogdor the Burninator]

Except vaccines are not required to undergo double-blind trials as most drugs are, and manufacturers are protected by law against claims for injury, contrary to other drugs.

Another anti-vaxxer argument that's been debunked - for reasons that should be obvious.

We don't want to give a bunch of people a placebo and stand by while they contract and then die from polio or some such disease just so we can confirm that people die without a vaccine.

The latest such “argument” is that the safety and efficacy of vaccines have never been proven because they have not been subjected to a controlled randomized double blind study against a placebo. This “argument” is designed to impress those with a minimal knowledge of statistics. In other words, it is designed to impress those who know enough statistics to realize that anecdotes are not a substitute for scientific studies and are familiar with the concept that a controlled randomized double blind study against a placebo is the “gold standard” in some areas of drug research.

Unfortunately, they don’t know enough to realize that controlled randomized double blind studies are unethical in certain circumstances, including the testing of vaccines. So what is presented on vaccine rejection websites as a startling and inexplicable refusal of scientists to test vaccines is actually the inevitable result of complying with ethical rules for scientific investigations.

There are many situations in which controlled randomized double blind studies are unethical. Consider infant carseats:

Do carseats minimize the risk of injury and death of infants?

There never been a controlled randomized double blind study of carseats. Why not? Because it is unethical to randomize some infants to be unbelted in cars simply so we can check how many will be injured and die.

Does that mean we don’t know if carseats reduce the risk of injury and death? Of course not. There are a myriad of statistical investigations that allow us to determine whether carseats reduce injury and death, including large scale population studies, retrospective cohort studies and many others.

So the fact that there are no controlled randomized double blind studies of vaccines is a red herring. It works only on those who don’t understand science and statistics. On them, of course, it works very well.

 

[Rick Otto]

Italy makes 12 vaccinations compulsory for children - BBC News

There are very few things in the world more silly than not vaccinating children.
Vaccination is compulsory where I come from as well. We don't discharge mothers from hospital till their children are immunised. If they aren't found to be vaccinated when they come for check-ups, we keep the children till they are.

If anything, this is a lesson in the misapplication of medical studies. One flawed study in the Lancet in 1998 kicked of years of human stupidity (the famous MMR Autism one).

It is the height of selfishness not to immunise your children and to trust others' herd immunity will protect yours. You are putting your own child and everyone else at risk.
Vaccines have known complications true, but they are vanishingly rare and usually far milder than the illnesses they protect against.

This is dangerous, not silly.
Full of propaganda and misinformation.
"Health care reform is a hot topic today, as it has been for much of America’s history. Benjamin Rush, one of the signers of the Declaration of Independence, warned in 1787 that medical freedom needed to be included in the American Constitution. Without this protection, Rush warned that the medical establishment would naturally progress – as many of mankind’s institutions do – into an oppressive dictatorship. His words, echoing from over 200 years ago, ring strikingly true today:

“The Constitution of this Republic should make special provision for medical freedom. To restrict the art of healing to one class will constitute the Bastille of medical science. All such laws are un-American and despotic. … Unless we put medical freedom into the constitution the time will come when medicine will organize into an undercover dictatorship and force people who wish doctors and treatment of their own choice to submit to only what the dictating outfit offers.”**

http://www.oldthinkernews.com/2012/11/27/benjamin-rush-medical-freedom/o

 

[Rick Otto]

The origin of AIDS Is The Polio Vaccine.Dr Koprowski tested his oral vaccine in the Belgian Congo

 

[He is Risen 72]

The world will finely know how science has just been a tool of Satan and that they were deceived when the entire population of Italy has Autism and Cancer in 20 years.

 

[Rick Otto]

The world will finely know how science has just been a tool of Satan and that they were deceived when the entire population of Italy has Autism and Cancer in 20 years.

Certainly when it is too late.
Scientist like Statism, is a "stealth religion"... followed on faith.

 

[Rick Otto]

(Shrugs) I remember the polio vaccine, and people couldn't rush fast enough to get it. People had seen the devastation left behind.

I think part of the problem is many haven't seen the devastation left behind from not being able to have - or they haven't seen invented yet - vaccines.

News of the disease and devastation were manipulated to produce vaccine success.

 

[Rick Otto]

Except vaccines are not required to undergo double-blind trials as most drugs are, and manufacturers are protected by law against claims for injury, contrary to other drugs. Those ignorant folk who reject vaccines claim that's because such trials would disprove the claims of the vaccine pushers, or without protection laws, vaccine manufacturers would be sued out of business.

Almost nobody knows that. They believe in "science".
Also, they have an openly secret exclusive court.

 

[Rick Otto]

It is not possible for Medicine to have some great conspiracy. Modern Medicine operates by the arcane statistical rules of Evidence-Based Medicine (EBM). It is a tyranny of numbers, unfeeling and cold, which largely determines what treatments doctors advocate. If the complication rates of a drug or treatment are higher than the illness it opposes, it is discontinued.
EBM was created to oppose human bias and lessen our adherence to opinion. It uses double-blind trials, placebos, retrospective cohort studies etc. to render as deductively sound verdict as possible. Researchers are largely kept in the dark themselves on findings until the final tally. If there is one field of human endeavour least susceptible to manipulation, it is medicine. Even though some studies may be flawed, they are easily shown as such or rendered an outlier or statistical anomaly.

The anti-vaccine movement's gullibility beggars belief and show a fundamental misunderstanding of the nature of the medical profession. Few doctors would advocate something they thought harmful, not only on the ground of ethics or professional repercussions, but from a personal grounds as well.

Wow. Talk about gullible...

 

[Rick Otto]

What is even worse is when the parents of a sick child decide to just pray the disease away. They ignore the advice of friends and/or relatives and do not seek medical help till the child is on death's door.

I see. Prayer should be the last ditch effort.
Great.

 

[Rick Otto]

Well, all my kids were vaccinated. I don't do the flu shot, and I always lie and say I had a tetanus shot last year, but other than that we're pretty healthy.

I think I may lie for the next tetanus...

 

[Rick Otto]

I remember a polio outbreak in my town in the early 1950s. People were absolutely terrified! The streets were deserted and the stores empty. No one left their house unless absolutely necessary. Then Jonas Saulk developed his vaccine. It was rushed into production and I can recall no one naysaying. People flocked to the vaccination stations and stayed there till the vaccines ran out and then lined up again in the morning. People saw what it could do and the photos of patients in the iron lungs. Smallpox is eradicated and polio almost unknown. Tuberculosis, diptheria, typhoid. We don't want to go back.

Yep, one photo can induce enough fear to totally shut down critical thinking.