Israel law

[shilohsfoal]

Hopefully Israel will pass no further laws to suppress Christianity within their borders, but it is possible that they will. It ought to be remembered that Israel is allegedly a secular state however it has strong religious biases against Christianity.

Daniel 7:25 He will speak against the Most High and oppress his holy people and try to change the set times and the laws. The holy people will be delivered into his hands for a time, times and half a time.

I'm inclined to believe the Israeli government will continue to adopt laws against Christianity.

 

[Brian Mcnamee]

Luke 21:16 You will be betrayed even by parents, brothers and sisters, relatives and friends, and they will put some of you to death.

Other than the antimissionary laws of israel,what other laws do you believe the Israeli goverment will pass calling for the imprisonment for Christians in Israel?

Hi the parallel passage in Mathew shows they asked a 3 part question after Jesus said the temple would b be destroyed so no two stones would be left together. They asked when will these things be and what is the sign of your coming and the end of the age. The being persecuted killed and betrayed for the name of Jesus has and is still going on and it is not just Israel who participated and fulfilled the portion dedicated to the synagogues and all. The sign of Israel destruction was when they are surrounded. That happened 70AD and the Christians did escape knowing this. The signs of the end of the age and 2nd coming are then given with the parable of the fig tree and the idiom of a woman in birth pangs. Rev describes another intense persecution of both Christian and Jews during the 7 year tribulation.

 

[Ken Rank]

Here is one such murder
Acts 7:59 While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit."

Now you show me one such murder of a jew by an Israeli Christian.

That was Jew on Jew or don't you realize that Christianity in the first century was considered a sect of Judaism and by far majority Jewish in members?

That said... this thread nor my point was about something that happened in Roman occupied Judea 1950 YEARS ago. We are talking about the laws of the current, independent, and secular state of Israel. Can you show me Christians put to death by Jews because they evangelized? No, you can't show me anything even close to that... all you have is a nation trying to protect it's identity against a world that has tried to eradicate that identity for millennia. If you don't understand that... my apologies. But responses like the one you just gave won't change my mind... they have no bearing on this at all and could only serve to cause division. Why not do as I asked... just think about what I said about Hitler and Christians attempting to pull Jews away from Torah. Think about... better yet, ask God if there is something there you should ponder on before replying back. Thanks and be blessed.

 

[Ken Rank]

The torah is the first five books of every Christian's old testament. It is not going to disappear.

Another brilliant reply. The PRACTICES of what is contained in those 5 books is what culturally defines as Jew as being Jewish. We don't have to remove those pages... we have removed their practices with doctrine that tells them they no longer need to do those things and in fact better not or they will be returned to bondage and end up in hell????????

 

[Ken Rank]

Hopefully Israel will pass no further laws to suppress Christianity within their borders, but it is possible that they will. It ought to be remembered that Israel is allegedly a secular state however it has strong religious biases against Christianity.

And Christianity has built in bias' against looking like them. There has been reactionary theology done by both sides. On ours... the Council of Elvira which passed the decree that we are not to eat the food of the Jews. Other decrees state not to rest in the Jewish Sabbath. Interestingly... we all seem to miss... there must have been enough Christians still doing these things for there to have been a need to pass such a decree. Our messiah was Jewish, he rested on Sabbath, observed the feasts, ate cleanly... and we call him our "model" and then berate the very lifestyle he led.

 

[BABerean2]

Our messiah was Jewish, he rested on Sabbath,

Christ was accused by the Pharisees of working on the Sabbath and He did work on the Sabbath by healing on that day.

However, He did not break the Sinai Covenant, because the priesthood was allowed and expected to work on the Sinai Sabbath.

Heb_5:6　 As He also says in another place: "YOU ARE A PRIEST FOREVER ACCORDING TO THE ORDER OF MELCHIZEDEK";

.

 

[Ken Rank]

Christ was accused by the Pharisees of working on the Sabbath and He did work on the Sabbath by healing on that day.

However, He did not break the Sinai Covenant, because the priesthood was allowed and expected to work on the Sinai Sabbath.

Heb_5:6　 As He also says in another place: "YOU ARE A PRIEST FOREVER ACCORDING TO THE ORDER OF MELCHIZEDEK";

.

He was accused by one sect of Pharisees (Shammai) not both sects of Pharisees. Those who were accusing him were from the one school that was known to teach the letter of the law and who were the elite at the time and threatened by his existence. But you are correct, healing doesn't break any Sabbath command any more than helping your neighbor get his ox out of a ditch does.

 

[shilohsfoal]

That was Jew on Jew or don't you realize that Christianity in the first century was considered a sect of Judaism and by far majority Jewish in members?

That said... this thread nor my point was about something that happened in Roman occupied Judea 1950 YEARS ago. We are talking about the laws of the current, independent, and secular state of Israel. Can you show me Christians put to death by Jews because they evangelized? No, you can't show me anything even close to that... all you have is a nation trying to protect it's identity against a world that has tried to eradicate that identity for millennia. If you don't understand that... my apologies. But responses like the one you just gave won't change my mind... they have no bearing on this at all and could only serve to cause division. Why not do as I asked... just think about what I said about Hitler and Christians attempting to pull Jews away from Torah. Think about... better yet, ask God if there is something there you should ponder on before replying back. Thanks and be blessed.

Why do you continue to compare Israeli Christians to Hitler?
Its not the same thing.

Matthew 10:23 When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another. Truly I tell you, you will not finish going through the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.
Christians will continue to be persecuted throughout Israel till Christ comes and even more so toward the time of the end.

 

[GingerBeer]

Another brilliant reply. The PRACTICES of what is contained in those 5 books is what culturally defines as Jew as being Jewish. We don't have to remove those pages... we have removed their practices with doctrine that tells them they no longer need to do those things and in fact better not or they will be returned to bondage and end up in hell????????

The laws of Moses are not cultural they are religious. Jews have themselves removed the practises. They no longer appoint priests to sacrifice animals in a temple in Jerusalem. They have invented a new religion for themselves that takes bits and pieces from the old testament and applies them while removing any obligation to observe other bits and pieces so that they can be safely ignored.

 

[GingerBeer]

And Christianity has built in bias' against looking like them. There has been reactionary theology done by both sides.

I have no bias against what Jews look like. As far as I can tell they look like anybody else. Do you have some stereotype in mind for what a Jew looks like yourself?

 

[Ken Rank]

Why do you continue to compare Israeli Christians to Hitler?
Its not the same thing.

Matthew 10:23 When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another. Truly I tell you, you will not finish going through the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.
Christians will continue to be persecuted throughout Israel till Christ comes and even more so toward the time of the end.

I don't, the Orthodox do. I thought I had made that clear.

 

[Ken Rank]

The laws of Moses are not cultural they are religious.

Most Jews are secular and they still keep Passover and other aspects of what you are saying are only religious. I have a personal Jewish friend whose family does a Passover Sedar every year and do so eating things like shrimp. So it is cultural to degrees you might not be aware of.

 

[jgr]

Most Jews are secular and they still keep Passover and other aspects of what you are saying are only religious. I have a personal Jewish friend whose family does a Passover Sedar every year and do so eating things like shrimp. So it is cultural to degrees you might not be aware of.

Since this discussion is focusing on the ubiquitous term "Jew" and its derivations, this would be an appropriate time to ask:

What is the definition of Jew? What is/are the distinguishing characteristic/s which qualify one as a Jew?

 

[Ken Rank]

Since this discussion is focusing on the ubiquitous term "Jew" and its derivations, this would be an appropriate time to ask:

What is the definition of Jew? What is/are the distinguishing characteristic/s which qualify one as a Jew?

Great question because it matters so much. Like all words which have many meanings, the word "Jew" also has many meanings. A Jew can be a member of Judaism (whether born into it and confirmed through a bar/bat mitzvah or a convert), but it can also be a reference to somebody from the Southern Kingdom, the tribe of Judah itself, and also somebody who is genetically Jewish... whose ancestors trace back to, say, the Southern Kingdom after the split? One can be genetically Jewish, be an atheist, still do a Passover Sedar every year even though he doesn't believe the stories... and still be Jewish by not just genetics but by practical identity. And that has been my connection in this thread... religious and non-religious Jews are identified today BY RELIGIOUS practice. Sounds odd... but like I said, one of my best friends is a secular agnostic Jew who makes darn sure he gets to his secular dad's home for Passover dinner where they eat unclean meats... but STILL tell the story and go through the order of events like the religious Jews do.

Their practice identifies them.... whether secular or religious... and the "you don't have to keep Passover" pitch by the Christians is taken as a threat NOT by me... but by THEM.

 

[GingerBeer]

Most Jews are secular and they still keep Passover and other aspects of what you are saying are only religious. I have a personal Jewish friend whose family does a Passover Sedar every year and do so eating things like shrimp. So it is cultural to degrees you might not be aware of.

Many Atheists celebrate Christmas which is neither religious, cultural, nor racial for them. It's a holiday and little more. For "secular Jews" passover is probably much the same as Christmas is for "secular atheists"

 

[Ken Rank]

Many Atheists celebrate Christmas which is neither religious, cultural, nor racial for them. It's a holiday and little more. For "secular Jews" passover is probably much the same as Christmas is for "secular atheists"

Yes it is cultural and if you tried to take Christmas away from any atheists WHO KEEP IT you would have a war. Think about it.

 

[jgr]

Great question because it matters so much. Like all words which have many meanings, the word "Jew" also has many meanings. A Jew can be a member of Judaism (whether born into it and confirmed through a bar/bat mitzvah or a convert), but it can also be a reference to somebody from the Southern Kingdom, the tribe of Judah itself, and also somebody who is genetically Jewish... whose ancestors trace back to, say, the Southern Kingdom after the split? One can be genetically Jewish, be an atheist, still do a Passover Sedar every year even though he doesn't believe the stories... and still be Jewish by not just genetics but by practical identity. And that has been my connection in this thread... religious and non-religious Jews are identified today BY RELIGIOUS practice. Sounds odd... but like I said, one of my best friends is a secular agnostic Jew who makes darn sure he gets to his secular dad's home for Passover dinner where they eat unclean meats... but STILL tell the story and go through the order of events like the religious Jews do.

Their practice identifies them.... whether secular or religious... and the "you don't have to keep Passover" pitch by the Christians is taken as a threat NOT by me... but by THEM.

Thanks for those definitions. So if an individual qualifies as a Jew under any one or more of these definitions, everything that Scripture has to say about the Jew is fully applicable to that individual?

 

[shilohsfoal]

I don't, the Orthodox do. I thought I had made that clear.

You've made it clear you condone the atrocities of some because of the acts of others.The Israeli Christians are not the cause of the holocaust.
If a jew pesecutes a Israeli Christian you should see it as persecution instead of saying it's ok because someone at sometime named Hitler persecuted or killed someone who was related to that person.
Persecutions of Christians is exactly what it is and you can't white wash it.

 

[Ken Rank]

Thanks for those definitions. So if an individual qualifies as a Jew under any one or more of these definitions, everything that Scripture has to say about the Jew is fully applicable to that individual?

No, because when Scripture speaks of Judah I believe it is dealing more with the practicing Jew (whether messianic or not) and not the atheist Jew. But... since we "read" through the lens' of the cultures we are raised in... we need to be at least cognizant of the other definitions because sometimes we will read them into Scripture of current events... or not when we need to. The latter seems to be the point most have focused on with me today. I am not condoning the Israeli government decisions concerning Christian evangelism (which is not new by the way, these laws have been around for some time) but rather than I understand why they would make them. And us getting all mad and calling it persecution rather than understanding how THEY got to the place that causes them to make such a decision does not help the situation at all. If we took the time to talk to the Jews, build relationships and just be a good Samaritan (so to speak) then perhaps some walls will come down and people will ask more questions.

 

[Ken Rank]

You've made it clear you condone the atrocities of some because of the acts of others.The Israeli Christians are not the cause of the holocaust.

That is absolutely not what I said, think or condone nor did I come even close to making such a statement or thinking such a thing. What I am saying is, and what you are not hearing... is if an Orthodox Jew loses a loved one to somebody who claims to be a Christian... then to them, all Christians are like those who took the life of their loved one. So, they pass some laws to protect themselves.

You're listed as a non-denominational Christian. There is then a decent chance that you at least support vetting refugees who come into this (or your) country from Islamic nations? If the case, your decision is only to defend the ones you love along with your way of life. Take that and turn it over and think like a Jewish person... almost every nation has either come against them or pressured them to give up what GOD said was theirs... and, like those who tried to erase them from history through death... they see Christians trying to do the same through conversion to something that causes them to not practice as they and their ancestors have for millennia. So, they pass laws. I am >>>NOT<<< saying I agree or not... I have NO ONCE taken a position on their law. All I have said, repeatedly... is I understand why they do it.