Israel law

[GingerBeer]

Israel's laws suppressing Christianity in Israel today are not cultural, they are wicked. Just wicked.

 

[Ken Rank]

Israel's laws suppressing Christianity in Israel today are not cultural, they are wicked. Just wicked.

Their laws do NOT suppress Christianity... my God... the Sukkot (Tabernacles) parade (also called the Parade of Nations) done in downtown Jerusalem every year and is filled with Christian organizations. The idea that they are opposed to Christians is ludicrous.... the law simple states that you are not allowed to try to convert them.

You are a person who would fight against Islamic evangelists coming into your church to convert your people and children and yet you expect to be able to have that exact privilege in a foreign country involving another religion. That isn't consistent...

And calling somebody wicked means you know the intent of their heart AND have determined their eternal destination even though judgment unto condemnation is frowned upon by the teachings of your own religion!

 

[GingerBeer]

The idea that they are opposed to Christians is ludicrous.... the law simple states that you are not allowed to try to convert them.

The gospel calls Christians to "Go to the people of all nations and make them my disciples. Baptize them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, and teach them to do everything I have told you." And the mission that Jesus gave to Christians is to "tell everyone about me in Jerusalem, in all Judea, in Samaria, and everywhere in the world." And the laws in Israel forbid evangelism among Jews in Israel. As Peter once said to the Jews "We ought to obey God rather than men." So tell me how Israel's laws are not suppressing Christianity in Israel and I'll tell you how the gospel of Jesus Christ is compromised by those who obey Israel's laws designed to suppress Christianity.

 

[Ken Rank]

The gospel calls Christians to "Go to the people of all nations and make them my disciples. Baptize them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, and teach them to do everything I have told you. I will be with you always, even until the end of the world." And the mission that Jesus gave to Christians is to "tell everyone about me in Jerusalem, in all Judea, in Samaria, and everywhere in the world." And the laws in Israel forbid evangelism among Jews in Israel. As Peter once said to the Jews "We ought to obey God rather than men." So tell me how Israel's laws are not suppressing Christianity in Israel and I'll tell you how the gospel of Jesus Christ is compromised by those who obey Israel's laws.

Yep... but those in the nations are not bound to have to listen to you. The commandment to go and teach and baptize was given to YOU not to the Jewish people in Israel.

You have this geocentric blinder on... you seem to not be able to stand in the shoes of another and see what they see. Again... would YOU open your church doors to Islamic evangelists? No... not for a stinking second and yet you want the Jews to open the door for you so that you can convert their people to a religion that they put on the same level as you put Islam.

Listen... here is a test... go and find the Israeli law code or statute that says it is illegal to proselytize in Israel. Please... you have taken this position against them... we should at least have the law in front of us so we can see it, right?

 

[Ken Rank]

Folks..... listen... please pay attention. There is >>NO LAW IN ISRAEL AGAINST PROSELYTIZING<<. None... there is a law against offering money to convert to a religion, but evangelizing goes on all the time over there.

I have MANY Jewish friends in Israel... and I just asked one of them, just seconds ago... how he would answer this question:

"Other than the antimissionary laws of israel,what other laws do you believe the Israeli goverment will pass calling for the imprisonment for Christians in Israel?"

His response was first to laugh... and it was really out loud. He then said, "There are no anti-proselytizing laws in Israel, as everyone assumes there are. It is ONLY illegal to offer money to a minor to convert to another religion. It is NOT illegal to proselytize - they do it all the time." That is straight from Israel just seconds ago. He then added, "Christians have a GREAT life here - this is the ONLY place in the ENTIRE Middle East where Christians can live as Christians."

So, no laws against sharing Jesus and Christians are free to function as Christians. And this thread has been nothing but a collection of vile statements against a people who have not done what is claimed here.

And if you want to prove me otherwise... just get the Israeli LAW CODE.... not some blogger or rich television or internet pastor... but the actual LAW CODE that supports your claims. I will be waiting. Thanks.

 

[Steve Petersen]

I think the case could be made that it was just the disciples who were told to go and make disciples. They were Jews.

 

[Ken Rank]

I think the case could be made that it was just the disciples who were told to go and make disciples. They were Jews.

It could, but the point of this thread is an accusation against the Jewish people who have not passed any laws like that which has been claimed. I too thought there was a law, but there isn't... it doesn't exist. Israel will limit access to certain groups known to evangelize to certain public places... but there is no law to prevent somebody from going to Jerusalem and handing out New Testaments.

 

[GingerBeer]

It is interesting to see how people manage to interpret scripture into meaninglessness. If the command to "tell everyone about me in Jerusalem, in all Judea, in Samaria, and everywhere in the world" is for the disciples only and the command to "Go to the people of all nations and make them my disciples. Baptize them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, and teach them to do everything I have told you" is for gentiles only then people might as well toss away their new testament because it was written for people other than them - people who are now long dead - and people today have no basis for evangelistic activity nor any business being converted to a religion that applied only to a few in the days immediately following Jesus' earthly presence. Those who interpret scripture this way are wicked. They know that they are wicked. They ought to repent.

 

[Ken Rank]

It is interesting to see how people manage to interpret scripture into meaninglessness. If the command to "tell everyone about me in Jerusalem, in all Judea, in Samaria, and everywhere in the world" is for the disciples only and the command to "Go to the people of all nations and make them my disciples. Baptize them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, and teach them to do everything I have told you" is for gentiles only then people might as well toss away their new testament because it was written for people other than them - people who are now long dead - and people today have no basis for evangelistic activity nor any business being converted to a religion that applied only to a few in the days immediately following Jesus' earthly presence. Those who interpret scripture this way are wicked. They know that they are wicked. They ought to repent.

It is interesting to me when a person has this position and when asked direct questions the answers to which weaken his own argument... he ignores the questions and keeps arguing.

This thread is about Israeli law. You have laid great claims AGAINST the Jewish people for a law that does not exist. And... you refuse to answer what your position would be on letting Islamic evangelists into your church would be. Why? Because we both know that you would NOT allow them because you don't want your people to be whisked away into something you don't see as true. But then you expect the Jews to allow their people to be whisked away into something they don't see as true. That isn't consistent my friend.

 

[Steve Petersen]

It is interesting to see how people manage to interpret scripture into meaninglessness. If the command to "tell everyone about me in Jerusalem, in all Judea, in Samaria, and everywhere in the world" is for the disciples only and the command to "Go to the people of all nations and make them my disciples. Baptize them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, and teach them to do everything I have told you" is for gentiles only then people might as well toss away their new testament because it was written for people other than them - people who are now long dead - and people today have no basis for evangelistic activity nor any business being converted to a religion that applied only to a few in the days immediately following Jesus' earthly presence. Those who interpret scripture this way are wicked. They know that they are wicked. They ought to repent.

When Jesus' disciples were sent out, they became apostles. They were given the command to evangelize by Jesus himself. The office of apostle is NOT given to everyone. It is conveyed from apostle to disciple by the laying on of hands. Those disciples are then sent out making them into apostles themselves. How many Christians have been through this process of ordination by laying on of hands from a chain of Apostles going back to the originals?

APOSTLE AND APOSTLESHIP - JewishEncyclopedia.com

 

[BABerean2]

Folks..... listen... please pay attention. There is >>NO LAW IN ISRAEL AGAINST PROSELYTIZING<<. None... there is a law against offering money to convert to a religion, but evangelizing goes on all the time over there.

Tell that to Sam Nadler, who is a Jewish man who converted to Christianity and heads the organization "Word of Messiah".
I have talked to Sam personally before.

Sam was arrested for preaching the Gospel on the street in Israel.

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[Ken Rank]

Tell that to Sam Nadler, who is a Jewish man who converted to Christianity and heads the organization "Word of Messiah".
I have talked to Sam personally before.

Sam was arrested for preaching the Gospel on the street in Israel.

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I will say this again... do not quote other people... show me the law code! There is no law... if Sam got arrested, he did more than he is saying which is usually the case. Being in places no allowed, doing other things to break the law... but none of this matters... you will see evil in the people you want to see evil in even if there is no law to support the point of this thread.

 

[BABerean2]

There is no law... if Sam got arrested, he did more than he is saying which is usually the case.

The Babylonian Talmud is the law of Orthodox Judaism.

Do you think these Israeli Christians are making up a story in the video above?

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[Ken Rank]

The Babylonian Talmud is the law of Orthodox Judaism.

Respectfully, you are showing you don't understand Judaism... what you are doing is just parroting what other people say. Yes, they place great weight in the Talmud (which is a compilation of all of their ancient sage and rabbinic writings almost all of which are post Babylon... in fact the Talmud itself was written over a period of time beginning 200 YEARS after the ascension) but that is because the Talmud contains the arguments and decisions made from those arguments that have shaped their understanding and walk. We have it too, we have a history of discussion, councils and decisions and from that all we have church bylaws and we even control membership based on the individual church bylaw (which is our interpretation of Scripture) ruling out anyone coming in who might have reached a different conclusion on really important topics like the rapture or whether or not we believe in once saved always saved.

Do you want to be a good Berean? Take a few weeks and read this book and learn how the doctrine of trinity came to be. Look at what was considered, weighed out, accepted and then rejected over an incredible period of time. And then come back and indict the Jews from a more scholarly position.

Do you think these Israeli Christians are making up a story in the video above?

The video didn't work for me (DSL out in the country, not always good) but it doesn't matter. I am not calling anyone a liar, I am simply telling you a fact... there is >>NO<< anti-Christian proselytizing laws in Israel and if there were, you would already have produced the law code so we could read it. But you haven't and you have had all day to be a good Berean and produce the evidence to back your claim. Bottom line is if they were arrested, they crossed a boundary somewhere and then cried persecution when they were at fault. There is NO law against preaching Jesus in Israel... NONE.

 

[jgr]

So then there is a rather large problem.
Concluding statements in the article:
"...the number of people in the world today with the “Abrahamic Genetic Signature” is too large to count precisely. A reasonable estimate is in the hundreds of millions."

This could itself be conservative. In the approximately 50 biblical generations since Abraham, the probability that by now virtually every person on earth possesses at least one molecule of Abrahamic DNA could be 100%.

But irrespective of which estimate we use, we see:

Zechariah 13
8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the Lord, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.

This is doom for potentially hundreds of millions of individuals, a majority of whom are almost certainly unaware of the death sentence written in their Jewish DNA.

Jewish converts would be in addition to these numbers.

Does anyone else recognize a problem?

Not to worry (as much).

The immediately preceding verse of Zechariah 13:7 states:
“Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the Lord of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.”

Our Lord quotes it in part in fulfillment the night of His betrayal in Matthew 26:31:
“Then saith Jesus unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad.”

Zechariah 13:8 then speaks of the event which “shall come to pass” which would reasonably be expected to follow without excessive delay – the death of two thirds of the land's inhabitants.

The ensuing generation after Christ died, arose, and ascended saw the commencement of the ultimate destruction and dispersion of the nation of Israel in the period including 70 AD and beyond.

There is historical evidence that two thirds of Israel's inhabitants eventually perished in the wars and conflicts associated with the nation's destruction. The Keil and Delitzsch OT Commentary states:
“The cutting off of the two-thirds of Israel commenced in the Jewish war under Vespasian and Titus, and in the war for the suppression of the rebellion led by the pseudo-Messiah Bar Cochba. It is not to be restricted to these events, however, but was continued in the persecutions of the Jews with fire and sword in the following centuries.”

This would fulfill the associated portion of the Zechariah 13:8 prophecy. It would also mean that there will be no future bloodbath claiming hundreds of millions or more of the earth's inhabitants.

So there should be no need to worry about whatever Jewish genes you may knowingly or unknowingly possess – your DNA will not doom you.

But your Judaic religion will, unless you forsake it and receive the salvation which Christ offers, before your opportunity window closes.

 

[BABerean2]

Respectfully, you are showing you don't understand Judaism... what you are doing is just parroting what other people say.

If you want to know what is taught by the Babylonian Talmud, read the book "Judaism's Strange Gods", by Michael Hoffman.

It is made up of direct quotes from the Talmud, instead of what other people say.

https://www.amazon.com/Judaisms-Strange-Gods-Revised-Expanded/dp/0970378483/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1505351393&sr=8-1&keywords=Judaism's+Strange+Gods

Also read "Jesus in the Talmud", by Jewish author Dr. Peter Schafer.

https://www.amazon.com/Jesus-Talmud...505352273&sr=8-1&keywords=Jesus+in+the+Talmud

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[Ken Rank]

If you want to know what is taught by the Babylonian Talmud, read the book "Judaism's Strange Gods", by Michael Hoffman.

If you want to be a Berean, you don't read somebody else's opinion of a subject, you read the source. I have the Talmud in a 20 volume collection and on eSword. I know what it says, I don't need Hoffman to tell me.

As for odd quotes... again, a Berean should know better. The Talmud often has MANY different opinions on 1 subject and some of the opinions are... literally... CRAZY! However, just because they recorded the opinions that are crazy does NOT mean they accepted them. However, you can go and cherry pick through any book and find the crazy stuff and say, "see, these people are evil, they believe ____." But, it isn't true, in fact... it could be bearing false witness because you would be spreading information that is not the opinion they accepted.

Finally... I can show you at least 3 places in the Gospels where Messiah is doing something ONLY FOUND IN THE TALMUD, and is not rebuking it.. he is taking part in it. That doesn't mean he condones it all... nor does it mean I do.... I am simply sharing a fact. Be a good Berean... don't parrot other people's work... go to the source and prove the thing yourself.

Be blessed.
Ken

 

[BABerean2]

If you want to be a Berean, you don't read somebody else's opinion of a subject, you read the source. I have the Talmud in a 20 volume collection and on eSword. I know what it says, I don't need Hoffman to tell me.

As for odd quotes... again, a Berean should know better. The Talmud often has MANY different opinions on 1 subject and some of the opinions are... literally... CRAZY! However, just because they recorded the opinions that are crazy does NOT mean they accepted them. However, you can go and cherry pick through any book and find the crazy stuff and say, "see, these people are evil, they believe ____." But, it isn't true, in fact... it could be bearing false witness because you would be spreading information that is not the opinion they accepted.

Finally... I can show you at least 3 places in the Gospels where Messiah is doing something ONLY FOUND IN THE TALMUD, and is not rebuking it.. he is taking part in it. That doesn't mean he condones it all... nor does it mean I do.... I am simply sharing a fact. Be a good Berean... don't parrot other people's work... go to the source and prove the thing yourself.

Be blessed.
Ken

Do you accept the Babylonian Talmud as a source of truth?

Dr. Peter Schafer, who is a professor at Princeton, is also an expert on the references to Jesus in the Talmud.
Do you claim to be a greater scholar than he is?

Sorry, but Bereans are required to ask these types of questions.

Peter Schafer


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[Ken Rank]

Do you accept the Babylonian Talmud as a source of truth?

No, I think there is some truth in it just as I think some commentaries have some things we can glean from. But they are not Scripture and while we can weigh out the thoughts and conclusions of others, prayerfully... Scripture still has the final say.

Dr. Peter Schafer, who is a professor at Princeton, is also an expert on the references to Jesus in the Talmud.
Do you claim to be a greater scholar than he is?

I am not claiming to be anything. But I will say this, just because somebody is at Princeton doesn't mean they are correct in every aspect of Scripture. God said through Jeremiah that ALL would be corrected in due course and all means all... even your Mr. Schafer.

Sorry, but Bereans are required to ask these types of questions.

The problem is, you are not asking the right questions. You ignored everything I said in my last couple of posts and spend your time exalting doctors. You have indicted the Jewish people over remarks in the Talmud that are taken out of context. AGAIN... 1 decision might have had 10 or 20 different arguments being made and some of the points really are crazy. But then they settle on something, most of the time it makes sense even if I wouldn't personally go there... and you have your "scholars" go and pull the crazy line that was REJECTED by the Jews and throw it out there and say, "See, this is in the Talmud so the Jews are evil." That is not only poor scholarship (is it even scholarship?) it is intellectually dishonest and downright silly!

John, Bob, Sam... whatever your real name is.... you don't take a position on a historical event by the work of man who is your contemporary, you take the position after PERSONALLY going to the historical source itself and finding the answer. If there is something in the Talmud that is said to be evil... go to the Talmud and find it, read it in context, and then make that determination on your own. Listen... I once did exactly as you are doing... quoting as fact things people said that I agreed with. And then I ran into a real teacher that showed me how to find a historical source and why it was so important. And why is it important? Because if you are wrong about the Jews, you are sinning by bearing false witness against them. Maybe that doesn't mean anything to you... but it does to me and is why I won't ever just take some smart doctor's answer as fact. Be a Berean not a parrot.

 

[BABerean2]

You have indicted the Jewish people over remarks in the Talmud that are taken out of context.

I am not indicting a whole race of people.
Most people of Jewish heritage have no idea what is in the Babylonian Talmud.

Do you deny that the Talmud makes derogatory remarks about Christ?

Here is an Orthodox rabbi "parroting" from the Talmud.

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