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  1. shilohsfoal

    shilohsfoal Newbie

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  2. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Act 22:19  And I said, Lord, they know that I imprisoned and beat in every synagogue them that believed on thee: 
    Act 22:20  And when the blood of thy martyr Stephen was shed, I also was standing by, and consenting unto his death, and kept the raiment of them that slew him. 


    Orthodox Rabbis who use the Babylonian Talmud as their source of truth have tremendous power in the modern State of Israel.


     
  3. Ken Rank

    Ken Rank Well-Known Member

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    None... Christians are the best friend Israel has and believe me, they know it. The problem is (with anti-missionary laws) is that they see modern forms of evangelism as being "Hitler-esque." Why? Because what Hitler did was attempt to erase Jewish identity from the planet. He nearly succeeded taking out at least a couple of million, if not the reported 6 million. When a Christian comes and tries to convert them, they see that as trying to eradicate Jewish identity because all of the things they do that stand as an identification of their ethnicity (the Feasts, Sabbath, eating kosher, etc.) are said to be "done away with" and they are encouraged to no longer do those things making them... IN THEIR EYES.... no longer Jewish. It would be like somebody telling you to avoid Easter and Communion and more. So... to protect their identity in a world that wants them dead (they are surrounded by enemies) they enacted anti-missionary laws. Not AGAINST the Christians but as a means to protect who and what they are. It isn't just Christians that fall under this law, it is ANY religion that proselytizes.

    So I expect NO laws passed against Christians unless Christians side with their enemies!
     
  4. shilohsfoal

    shilohsfoal Newbie

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    Luke 21:12 "But before all this, they will seize you and persecute you. They will hand you over to synagogues and put you in prison, and you will be brought before kings and governors, and all on account of my name.



    So you believe the Christians in Israel who do as jesus said and attempt I go throughout Israel preaching the gospel will be judged by the antimissionary laws which have already been passed by the Knesset?
    You don't believe the Knesset will pass any other antichrist laws calling for imprisonment for preaching the gospel?
     
  5. Dave-W

    Dave-W Our six grandchildren Supporter

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    That does not explain the animus against Messianics (which seems even more ardent than that against regular christians) because we DO keep Sabbath and the Feasts, eat kosher, etc.
     
  6. shilohsfoal

    shilohsfoal Newbie

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  7. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    What do Orthodox rabbis say about Christ?

     
  8. Ken Rank

    Ken Rank Well-Known Member

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    No, what I am saying is... do you allow Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses into your home and to have access to your children? No... so you expect Israel... which has been in the brink of annihilation many times in history... to just open their doors to you and give you access to their people and children because of a truth that you perceive that they don't?

    I am not taking their side in the sense you might think.... I believe Yeshua is messiah with every fiber of my being. All I am doing is looking at this from THEIR perspective...and from their perspective, many Jews have died in "Jesus name" and when they see an evangelist coming, that is what they think. We are better to do as the Great Commission actually tells us. You do know what it REALLY says, right? The "Go!" is only a command in ENGLISH... in the Greek it is a participle... it is the word "going." So the idea... and feel free to check with ANY Koine Greek scholar on this... is "as you are going" and then the command, "TEACH!" The thrust behind the Great Commission is not go and force the world to accept your view of Jesus... it is to walk in a manner that reveals Jesus' character and reputation to the world around you and when God draws them (John 6:44) and they begin to seek (they won't find unless they do) then TEACH. But teaching is not handing them a tract or the NT and hoping they show up on Sunday... it is taking them in as a student which takes YEARS.
     
  9. Ken Rank

    Ken Rank Well-Known Member

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    If you haven't read my whole first post in this thread please do before reading this addition to it...

    In addition to my first post I add in response to that for you... that the Messianic Jewish movement began in the 1970's as an attempt to make Christianity look more Jewish so that the gospel message would be more palatable for the Orthodox. That is what it was... and so, the Orthodox know this and see it as an attempt to evangelize through stealth. Sure, I believe that the messianic Jewish movement (and Hebrew Roots movement to a lesser degree) has evolved into more than that as per God's will I believe.... but it isn't up to the Orthodox to track OUR progress... that would be like expecting us to follow the decisions and movements of the Bahá'í Faith or Mormons if that is an acceptable analogy.
     
  10. Ken Rank

    Ken Rank Well-Known Member

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    This will pass, but it must happen.

    Isaiah 11:13 Also the envy of Ephraim shall depart, And the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off; Ephraim shall not envy Judah, And Judah shall not harass Ephraim.
     
  11. Dave-W

    Dave-W Our six grandchildren Supporter

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    I did read it.
    Except that is not how it happened. It (the modern messianic movement) was started in eastern Europe in the 1880s by 3 orthodox/chassidic rabbis: Joseph Rabinowitz in Russia, Isaac Lichtenstein in Romania and Leopold Cohn in Hungary.

    While I agree that the description you give is what many or most in the Orthodox community believe, it simply is not true.
     
  12. Ken Rank

    Ken Rank Well-Known Member

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    3 Orthodox Rabbis started the Yeshua following messianic movement? By definition they wouldn't be Orthodox. But listen, I really am not trying to cause strife, I hope you realize that. My concern was ONLY that the tone was quickly going anti-Judaic which it need not be. We would not allow access to our family to groups outside our belief system and they are simply doing the same. The only reason theirs rises to the level of national decree is because of who they are and where they are. And seeing you agree that the Orthodox believe that the Messianic movement was Christianity made to look Jewish... and since their decisions are based on what they believe... then that is the only thing that matters here. Change their perspective... but as far as why they have these laws, what I said is true. And I don't expect other laws to come forth unless we give them a reason to make new laws. I know of Christian groups, Dave, that have free unfettered access all over the country because they are not passing out tracts... they are simply, instead, showing Yeshua in the deeds and allowing him to be heard in their words. And the Jewish people don't have an issue with that.
     
  13. Dave-W

    Dave-W Our six grandchildren Supporter

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    Yes. All independent from each other. I suggest you read their stories. Cohen did not fully come to faith in Jesus/Yeshua until arriving in New York, but his start on that route was in Hungary. In NY he started a Jewish outreach "mission" that currently goes under the name Chosen People Ministries.

    Lichtenstein did not let the other orthodox Jews know of his beliefs until after his death just prior to WW1, but his congregation did and followed him. Word got to the Vatican and the pope sent an emissary, who was sent packing. After his death, his writings led many more eastern European Jews to faith in Yeshua.

    Rabinowitz, OTOH, (the chassidic rabbi) was more outspoken and open. He started a whole string of Messianic synagogues across pre-revolution Russia. That made it possible for Jonathan Bernis and others to re-establish Messianic synagogues in post-communist Russia.
     
  14. Dave-W

    Dave-W Our six grandchildren Supporter

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    Actually, there is a LOT more to it than that. In Matt 23 our Lord said that Jerusalem would not see him again until they (Jewish leadership) say of Him "Baruch haba b'shem Adonai," Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord. That is from the Jewish wedding customs and is the bride welcoming the coming of her groom and the consummation of their marriage.

    Zechariah says that He will return and set His feet on the Mount of Olives which is just east of the Old City. So if the devil can keep the Jews away from the gospel, there will be no one to welcome Him and thus prevent His 2nd coming.
     
  15. Dave-W

    Dave-W Our six grandchildren Supporter

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    I personally know or at least have met probably a quarter of the Messianic leaders in Israel. For a while the congregation in Haifa was vandalized on a regular basis, tires slashed and eventually their building was fire bombed by the orthodox. My daughter attended there for about a year and a half.
     
  16. shilohsfoal

    shilohsfoal Newbie

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    I didn't say anything about outsiders coming into israel,preaching the gospel.
    Matthew 10:21 "Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; children will rebel against their parents and have them put to death.

    What im,telling about is the Israeli goverment passing antichrist laws that imprison Israeli Christians.

    Disciples of Christ in Israeli following Jesus footsteps and preaching what they are told to by Christ,being hated as Christ was hated for his namesake and being persecuted and murderd as Christ was persecuted and murderd.

    Being murderd for doing good.
    Being murderd for doing the will of God.
     
  17. Ken Rank

    Ken Rank Well-Known Member

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    I think God has this one more than most of us give Him credit for. Zech 12:10 speaks of the Jews and of them seeing him who was pierced and like their reaction after coming out of Babylon (Persia) and learning of Sukkot again (they mourned) so too will their descendants mourn as one mourns for his only son. But then? Then they will do what they did in Ezra's time... get about living. No, I am not saying don't share your faith with those who seek... it is our DUTY to give an answer for the hope of our calling "to every man WHO ASKS." (1 Peter 3:15) We don't need to go knock on doors and scare old people with stories of hell... we need to walk the walk and when people ask about the hope of our calling, give them the reasons... that is what real evangelism is.
     
  18. Ken Rank

    Ken Rank Well-Known Member

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    You see that an anti-Christ laws... they don't see Christ as having come yet (most don't, many do). All they are doing is trying to protect their identity. People like Hitler (and others before and after him) have come to eradicate the Jews, some in Jesus name.... and they perceive giving up those things that define being Jewish as another attempt at the same. That law (which isn't new, it has been around for some time) only serves to protect themselves and their identity as they understand things. You see evil... I don't.. sorry. I just see somebody who doesn't have your (or my) understanding about Yeshua trying to protect themselves from what is unknown to them. :)
     
  19. Ken Rank

    Ken Rank Well-Known Member

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    Yes... I can tell you many stories as well as I know many Messianic Jews but I know more Orthodox than I do messianic (in Israel). So I get both sides... I do Dave... I am not condemning either, I am simply saying I understand it, and think calling it anti-Christ in light of our history is wrong.

    In A.D. 150, Justin Martyr wrote to Trypho the Jew, saying, "You can be a Jew or a Christian, but you can't be both." That set a tone... the face of the faith (after the bar Khokba Revolt which ended 15 years before Martyr wrote this) began to shift to being more "non-Jewish" and comments like the one above and phrases like "Christ-killer" have given Christianity a slightly anti-Judaic undertone that still exists and is picked up on by the Orthodox. We don't take that into consideration, we think they should just accept what WE believe as truth... and darn with the rest. :) But it doesn't work that way... we are better off learning to live in mutual respect and understanding and walking in a manner that makes Yeshua as plain as the light of the sun to all who are exposed to our words and deeds. And then... and THEN... they WILL ASK, and when they do, give an answer for the hope of our calling. Until then... they are not seeking so they will not find.
     
  20. Steve Petersen

    Steve Petersen Senior Veteran

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    If Christians would allow Jews to retain their Jewish practice and not insist that they worship Jesus as God, there may be room for interfaith dialog.

    But, Israeli Jews are overwhelmingly secular (like 80% from what I hear.) They may be more open to Yeshua.
     
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