ISIS and the Old Testament

[BobRyan]

I don't have to embrace a brutal God, because I embrace a just God. I do not explain the Old Testament, I accept it. Yes, God did order those things, and they were carried out. I do not believe it was just political manoeuvring,

Indeed - and the attempt to put ISIS in God's chair, or the dark-ages Christian church-state groups in God's chair as if to excuse them because "God did it in the OT" is to gloss over a great many key details found in the NT regarding the persecuted church not torturing or murdering anyone at all to force them to convert.

 

[Soyeong]

Absolutely he did:

"20 “Whoever sacrifices to any god other than the Lord must be destroyed." Ex. 22:20 (NIV)

Death is the penalty for breaking a covenant, not for simply following a different religion.

"40 Then Elijah commanded them, “Seize the prophets of Baal. Don’t let anyone get away!” They seized them, and Elijah had them brought down to the Kishon Valley and slaughtered there." 1 Kings 18:40 (NIV)

Elijah was not God.

 

[Achilles6129]

Death is the penalty for breaking a covenant, not for simply following a different religion.



Elijah was not God.

Following a different religion is breaking the covenant.

Are you saying that Elijah was wrong?

 

[Achilles6129]

Indeed - and the attempt to put ISIS in God's chair, or the dark-ages Christian church-state groups in God's chair as if to excuse them because "God did it in the OT" is to gloss over a great many key details found in the NT regarding the persecuted church not torturing or murdering anyone at all to force them to convert.

I'm certainly not trying to excuse anyone. I'm just trying to show a parallel, that's all.

 

[HomeinSalem]

The OT describes a period of theocracy. So God was the immediate ruler and God is righteous: The LORD is righteous in all his ways and faithful in all he does.(Psalm 145:17) God in NT teaches us how to live now: Be subject for the Lord's sake to every human institution,whether it be to the emperor as supreme or to governors as sent by him to punish those who do evil and to praise those who do good. For this is the will of God, that by doing good you should put to silence the ignorance of foolish people. (1 Peter 2:13,14,15).
The god of Isis probably is the devil and you know the way of the devil: Lies, murder, destruction.

 

[fhansen]

We're all aware of the barbarity that ISIS terrorists have displayed towards anyone outside of their organization. We're also all aware that Western society (including, of course, modern Christianity) is basically horrified by their actions and that they have become the new face of evil for many in the West. However, there is something here that I think is worth considering from a theological standpoint (and I want to be careful how I say this):

In the Old Testament God commands things that are very similar, though perhaps not the exact same, to what ISIS terrorists do. Obviously the nature of God can never change. Indeed, the New Testament also has a great deal of violence in it: there's violence in the statements of Jesus Christ and there's an enormous amount of violence in the book of Revelation.

What do you make of these things? Wouldn't a society run by the Torah be sort of similar to one run by Sharia law (which is apparently what ISIS terrorists follow, if I'm not mistaken)? How does modern Christianity respond?

When the time was ripe in human history-when man was becoming ready- the true, full revelation of God was given-in the person of Jesus Christ. Love your enemy, turn the other cheek; nothing about rape, pillage, slaughter, beheadings. The OT contained imperfect and distorted understandings of God's image, nature, and will, first conceived by man at the beginning, from the Fall, corrupted by an imperfect knowledge of Him, a knowledge that man shaped to fit his own will, desires, agendas; God as made in man's own image.

Besides, in religious wars both sides think that God's, exclusively, on their particular side. So which could an objective observer support anyway?

 

[Soyeong]

Following a different religion is breaking the covenant.

Indeed, following a different religion is breaking the covenant, but the death penalty comes from breaking the covenant, not from following a different religion. They were not commanded by God to kill anyone who was not a member of that covenant simply because they followed another religion. Someone who enters a contract where the penalty for breaking it is death is obligated to keep that contract, but someone who has not entered that contract is not obligated to keep it and will not face death for not keeping it.

Are you saying that Elijah was wrong?

I was not talking about Elijah or whether he was right or wrong; I was talking about what God has commanded.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

God is a God who brutally tortures and kills those who disobey his commands.

This quote shows you don't know the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob... First, we need to understand that God creates, therefore, He has the right to destroy. Not out of sinful anger or petty vengeance but because of what He had to do in response to Satan introducing sin into this world. Satan is the destroyer and God does what He does from a place of Love that none of us will ever fully understand... but I believe that God is Just and Righteous and Loving. The nations that He destroyed that were opposed to His people, was because Satan was controlling the heathen nation. God had to destroy them as they would have carried out Satans designs and destroyed the seed that was to come to crush the serpents head. Satan has tried since Cain killed Abel, to destroy the one who would bring this death sentence upon him... all through the OT, Satan tried to thwart God's plan of redemption and had to be dealt with accordingly. If you believe that God is Just, then you have to believe that no one dies that God does not know the condition of their heart.. if He knew someone would sincerely repent and obey and worship Him, then He would not let that person die without opportunity. The millions of people before the flood that perished showed that even though Noah warned them for 120 years, their hearts were hardened against God's voice as was Pharaoh's during the time of the plagues. The recent movie about Noah, portrayed God in the manner in which you are suggesting.. as a cruel tyrant who had to be stopped. It's Satans deception for these last days for men to call good evil and evil good. That is what you are suggesting....

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

And we are aware of similar things done in the dark ages by the RCC against 50 million or 100 million saints - over a period of time covering 1260 years.

On this point, it's interesting that God has used Islam three times now to agitate Rome. This is found in the three woes of Revelation chapter 9 and 11. There is even a time prophesy regarding this that was rightly understood in 1838 that correctly predicted the fall of the Ottoman empire to the western nations in 1840. Even though Satan does everything in his imagination to thwart God's plans, God can use all things for His purpose and Glory.

In Genesis, in the story of Abraham, Ishmael and Hagar, we read that God pronounced a curse upon Ismael's descendants... that every man's hand would be against them and they would be against every man. Since the beginning of Islam, this has been the case.

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan said: ↑
Indeed - and the attempt to put ISIS in God's chair, or the dark-ages Christian church-state groups in God's chair as if to excuse them because "God did it in the OT" is to gloss over a great many key details found in the NT regarding the persecuted church not torturing or murdering anyone at all to force them to convert.
I'm certainly not trying to excuse anyone. I'm just trying to show a parallel, that's all.

I'm certainly not trying to excuse anyone. I'm just trying to show a parallel, that's all.

No doubt that Islam and the RCC tried to "sit in the seat of God" at certain points in history - yet God never tortured anyone to get them to convert. No parallel at all on that point - not even if you elevate them to "peers with God" status.

 

[Armoured]

We're all aware of the barbarity that ISIS terrorists have displayed towards anyone outside of their organization. We're also all aware that Western society (including, of course, modern Christianity) is basically horrified by their actions and that they have become the new face of evil for many in the West. However, there is something here that I think is worth considering from a theological standpoint (and I want to be careful how I say this):

In the Old Testament God commands things that are very similar, though perhaps not the exact same, to what ISIS terrorists do. Obviously the nature of God can never change. Indeed, the New Testament also has a great deal of violence in it: there's violence in the statements of Jesus Christ and there's an enormous amount of violence in the book of Revelation.

What do you make of these things? Wouldn't a society run by the Torah be sort of similar to one run by Sharia law (which is apparently what ISIS terrorists follow, if I'm not mistaken)? How does modern Christianity respond?

Good points all.

It never ceases to bemuse me that the people who condemn Sharia law (or their strawman understanding of it) the loudest are invariably the people who think laws should be based on the Bible.

 

[Armoured]

On this point, it's interesting that God has used Islam three times now to agitate Rome. This is found in the three woes of Revelation chapter 9 and 11. There is even a time prophesy regarding this that was rightly understood in 1838 that correctly predicted the fall of the Ottoman empire to the western nations in 1840. Even though Satan does everything in his imagination to thwart God's plans, God can use all things for His purpose and Glory.

In Genesis, in the story of Abraham, Ishmael and Hagar, we read that God pronounced a curse upon Ismael's descendants... that every man's hand would be against them and they would be against every man. Since the beginning of Islam, this has been the case.

Not that the Ottoman Empire fell to Western Nations in any meaningful sense, but hey, I understand claiming prophetic hits is more important than historical accuracy.

Say, shouldn't you be in Church as legally required under Obama's new laws this fine Sunday?

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

Not that the Ottoman Empire fell to Western Nations in any meaningful sense, but hey, I understand claiming prophetic hits is more important than historical accuracy.

Interesting how you qualify what constitutes the restraining of Islam... whether meaningful to you or not, it was a huge deal to the Moslems of the day to be ruled over by infidels... they fell as surely as did Communism in '89. Can you explain how Litch was able to predict this event two years ahead of time... to the exact day? If it makes you feel any better, he was a Methodist Episcopal preacher at the time, but he understood prophesy.

Say, shouldn't you be in Church as legally required under Obama's new laws this fine Sunday

Considering that this day is the first day of the week, I feel pretty good about being at work. That won't change anytime soon.... death before dishonour.

 

[Armoured]

Interesting how you qualify what constitutes the restraining of Islam... whether meaningful to you or not, it was a huge deal to the Moslems of the day to be ruled over by infidels... they fell as surely as did Communism in '89. Can you explain how Litch was able to predict this event two years ahead of time... to the exact day? If it makes you feel any better, he was a Methodist Episcopal preacher at the time, but he understood prophesy.

Individually, every word here makes perfect sense.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

Individually, every word here makes perfect sense.

How do you explain how Litch was able to predict the event to the very day some two years previous?

 

[Achilles6129]

This quote shows you don't know the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob... First, we need to understand that God creates, therefore, He has the right to destroy. Not out of sinful anger or petty vengeance but because of what He had to do in response to Satan introducing sin into this world. Satan is the destroyer and God does what He does from a place of Love that none of us will ever fully understand... but I believe that God is Just and Righteous and Loving. The nations that He destroyed that were opposed to His people, was because Satan was controlling the heathen nation. God had to destroy them as they would have carried out Satans designs and destroyed the seed that was to come to crush the serpents head. Satan has tried since Cain killed Abel, to destroy the one who would bring this death sentence upon him... all through the OT, Satan tried to thwart God's plan of redemption and had to be dealt with accordingly. If you believe that God is Just, then you have to believe that no one dies that God does not know the condition of their heart.. if He knew someone would sincerely repent and obey and worship Him, then He would not let that person die without opportunity. The millions of people before the flood that perished showed that even though Noah warned them for 120 years, their hearts were hardened against God's voice as was Pharaoh's during the time of the plagues. The recent movie about Noah, portrayed God in the manner in which you are suggesting.. as a cruel tyrant who had to be stopped. It's Satans deception for these last days for men to call good evil and evil good. That is what you are suggesting....

The doctrine of hell alone proves what I'm saying, much less the rest of Scripture.

 

[Armoured]

How do you explain how Litch was able to predict the event to the very day some two years previous?

I have no idea what you're talking about.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

Josiah Litch, a Methodist preacher predicted the fall of the Ottoman Empire in 1838, to the day, two full years before it happened in 1840. He did this by properly understanding prophetic interpretation. The prophesy he was using was found in Revelation 9:5,15. This fulfillment confirmed William Millers methods of interpretation as correct.

Adventists have been one of the only denominations that has bothered to search the prophetic record to see what God has revealed to His people for these last days... God will not leave us without a witness from His Word.

 

[Armoured]

Josiah Litch, a Methodist preacher predicted the fall of the Ottoman Empire in 1838, to the day, two full years before it happened in 1840. He did this by properly understanding prophetic interpretation. The prophesy he was using was found in Revelation 9:5,15. This fulfillment confirmed William Millers methods of interpretation as correct.

Adventists have been one of the only denominations that has bothered to search the prophetic record to see what God has revealed to His people for these last days... God will not leave us without a witness from His Word.

Well that's good, considering the Ottoman Empire was a going concern until the end of the First World War, you know, in 1918.

Another predictive hit!

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

The doctrine of hell alone proves what I'm saying, much less the rest of Scripture.

The current popular doctrine of hell is not a right understanding of God's Mercy and Love... annihilation of the wicked in the lake of fire, is "a strange work" for God, but it is the only Righteous thing that God can do to those that reject Him.

Your thoughts of God are a great example of what the dangers of the current belief in a eternal burning place where God punishes His creation for an eternity can cause.