ISIS and the Old Testament

[Achilles6129]

We're all aware of the barbarity that ISIS terrorists have displayed towards anyone outside of their organization. We're also all aware that Western society (including, of course, modern Christianity) is basically horrified by their actions and that they have become the new face of evil for many in the West. However, there is something here that I think is worth considering from a theological standpoint (and I want to be careful how I say this):

In the Old Testament God commands things that are very similar, though perhaps not the exact same, to what ISIS terrorists do. Obviously the nature of God can never change. Indeed, the New Testament also has a great deal of violence in it: there's violence in the statements of Jesus Christ and there's an enormous amount of violence in the book of Revelation.

What do you make of these things? Wouldn't a society run by the Torah be sort of similar to one run by Sharia law (which is apparently what ISIS terrorists follow, if I'm not mistaken)? How does modern Christianity respond?

 

[farout]

We're all aware of the barbarity that ISIS terrorists have displayed towards anyone outside of their organization. We're also all aware that Western society (including, of course, modern Christianity) is basically horrified by their actions and that they have become the new face of evil for many in the West. However, there is something here that I think is worth considering from a theological standpoint (and I want to be careful how I say this):

In the Old Testament God commands things that are very similar, though perhaps not the exact same, to what ISIS terrorists do. Obviously the nature of God can never change. Indeed, the New Testament also has a great deal of violence in it: there's violence in the statements of Jesus Christ and there's an enormous amount of violence in the book of Revelation.

What do you make of these things? Wouldn't a society run by the Torah be sort of similar to one run by Sharia law (which is apparently what ISIS terrorists follow, if I'm not mistaken)? How does modern Christianity respond?

Your profile indicates you are intelligent, and it looks like your read the Bible. Do you honestly think our HOLY CREATOR G-D did anything whatsoever that compares with ISIS? You are making a seriously flawed comparison!

 

[Achilles6129]

Your profile indicates you are intelligent, and it looks like your read the Bible. Do you honestly think our HOLY CREATOR G-D did anything whatsoever that compares with ISIS? You are making a seriously flawed comparison!

So when God says exterminate civilizations, burn harlots alive, execute children for cursing parents, stone adulterers, etc., you don't think that's even remotely similar to what's going on in the Middle East today?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Achilles6129 said: ↑
We're all aware of the barbarity that ISIS terrorists have displayed towards anyone outside of their organization. We're also all aware that Western society (including, of course, modern Christianity) is basically horrified by their actions and that they have become the new face of evil for many in the West. However, there is something here that I think is worth considering from a theological standpoint (and I want to be careful how I say this):

In the Old Testament God commands things that are very similar, though perhaps not the exact same, to what ISIS terrorists do. Obviously the nature of God can never change. Indeed, the New Testament also has a great deal of violence in it: there's violence in the statements of Jesus Christ and there's an enormous amount of violence in the book of Revelation.

farout said: ↑
Your profile indicates you are intelligent, and it looks like your read the Bible. Do you honestly think our HOLY CREATOR G-D did anything whatsoever that compares with ISIS? You are making a seriously flawed comparison!

So when God says exterminate civilizations, burn harlots alive, execute children for cursing parents, stone adulterers, etc., you don't think that's even remotely similar to what's going on in the Middle East today?

I know some people that won't even read most of the Hebrew OT just for that reason. And they sure won't read Revelation.......
You might find this commentary interesting:

http://www.awitness.org/contrabib/history/genress.html
Genocide and resurrection

Holy War as political propaganda in the Bible


Nations that were said to be the victims of Holy War and genocide rise from the dead in the first recorded resurrection on the pages of the Bible, demonstrating that much of what passes for history in the Bible is actually a kind of political propaganda and polemic, and that the Bible consists of source materials composed by different groups at different times, representing various ideological viewpoints.


The Bible does not present a consistent picture of what is moral or what is right and what is wrong, as is demonstrated by the constant call for genocide on its pages. Old and young, men, women and infants, all were to be ruthlessly slaughtered, using the techniques of the day (a very messy affair. Use your imagination and try to picture what it would be like to hack an infant to death with the sword, or to chase down and hack to death a screaming grandmother).
Holy War remained with us down through the ages, and in parts of the world it is still practiced, and it is not hard to identify the source of this fanaticism. Moslems were influenced by the Bible, and picked up on its call for 'Jihad'. I watched a documentary recently where Muslim fighters were launching shoulder held rockets and firing machine guns, each volley accompanied by a cry of 'God is Great'.


One polemical excuse often employed to justify the vitriolic violence on the pages of the Bible is that, 'the Bible accurately portrays reality. The world is a violent place.' But 'portraying reality' and ascribing homicidal fury to God, even actively endorsing and promoting a genocidal, racist mindset are two very different things.


The Bible actually portrays God in many different ways. For example one should either hate Moabites, and parcel out their land, or one should avoid all conflicts with Moabites and not attempt to take their land.
Christ was given to say, 'put away your swords for those who live by the sword, will die by the sword.' And again he recommended that rather than resist, one should offer to carry the packs of the invading army. If they asked you carry their pack one mile, he recommended that it be carried two miles. And the Jewish prophets dreamed of the day when 'swords would be hammered into plough shares, and people would learn war no more.'

The victims of genocide in the Bible do not remain in their graves, instead of rising repeatedly from the ashes, to deliver testimony to the actual political and ideological conflicts found on the pages of the Bible.
The Bible is composed of multiple sources, and these sources represent different political and ideological viewpoints. An interesting example of what I mean can be found when we consider the ‘multiple massacres' of the Bible. As I indicated in the section on the book of Joshua, nations wiped out by Joshua make a miraculous resurrection from the dead in the book of Judges. They rise zombie like from the ashes to fight Israel again, and apparently nothing short of a silver bullet would suffice to put them down once and for all...................




.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

We're all aware of the barbarity that ISIS terrorists have displayed towards anyone outside of their organization. We're also all aware that Western society (including, of course, modern Christianity) is basically horrified by their actions and that they have become the new face of evil for many in the West. However, there is something here that I think is worth considering from a theological standpoint (and I want to be careful how I say this):

I appreciate your sense of prudence here. We all should be careful with what we say in regard to this issue.

In the Old Testament God commands things that are very similar, though perhaps not the exact same, to what ISIS terrorists do. Obviously the nature of God can never change. Indeed, the New Testament also has a great deal of violence in it: there's violence in the statements of Jesus Christ and there's an enormous amount of violence in the book of Revelation.

What do you make of these things?

In very basic terms, it seems to me to mean that in the Old Testament, God at times utilized His people (the Israelites) to affect His will of judgment upon the world. By contrast, in the New Testament era, it is God's will to reserve judgment upon ungodliness through His own means rather than through His people (the Church), specifically because grace, mercy, love, as well as holiness, are the operative values. This is probably reflected in the words of Jesus as referred by John where He says to Pilate, "My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight...but now My kingdom is not from here" (John 18:36).

This is further reflected by the Apostle Paul where he says, "For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war according to the flesh. For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds, casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ" (2 Corinthians 10:3-4). The implication here is that since our weapons are spiritual and not material in nature (i.e. the Bible, but not swords and guns), the fight we fight as Christians is against Satan and his deceptive forces, not against people (even though we may have to confront people about God's Truth).

Wouldn't a society run by the Torah be sort of similar to one run by Sharia law (which is apparently what ISIS terrorists follow, if I'm not mistaken)?

In short, a Torah ruled society might seem similar in some ways to a society ruled today in the Middle-East, but in saying this, the comparison would not be identical, and it would be based upon a much different rendering of Theology.

How does modern Christianity respond?

We pray for the peace of Christ, first of all, and while doing so, we recognize that one order is, and has been, a cheap similucrum of a past order. [Don't ask me to be more explicit.] As Christians, we are in an order that is different from either one of the other two orders to which I've just now alluded.

Peace

 

[farout]

So when God says exterminate civilizations, burn harlots alive, execute children for cursing parents, stone adulterers, etc., you don't think that's even remotely similar to what's going on in the Middle East today?

\You are not taking the action taken because of the crime. Look deeper than just the surface. People were given ample time to change or warned to STOP. They did not. G-ds people were pledged to being His Holy People. They were warned over and over, but refused to believe G-d PpppG0ds Holy ones were warned not to become or use prostitutes. Again they did not listen. G-d wanted Holiness and he never changed. Even today people are saving up G-ds wrath for themselves.

ISIS is killing not for holiness, but for submission to their evil way against Yahweh. Who do you think will win.

I am not being snarky, but read deeper into the Scripture. Got a great study Bible? If so read the notes as many times they will give good explanations for the reasons G-d did such a thing. Remember G-d made the Laws we are to obey, we disobey than we will pay the price unless we confess our sins. God is HOLY He expects us to live as holy men and woman as much as humanly possible. Please keep in mind Yahweh says He knows our frame is made of dust. G-d is a Holy G-d and His nature is LOVE not punishment. However He has provided a way of escape, and forgiveness.

There is nothing in common with good and evil. There is nothing in common with Yahweh and Islam. Be careful not to set yourself as Judge in this. You are on a slippery slope here.

 

[Achilles6129]

I think that ISIS terrorists also raise questions about God's (apparent) lack of intervention. Though, obviously, reading human history also raises the same questions. Anyone want to comment on that?

 

[Achilles6129]

Farout, in regards to your post, I understand that there's an entirely different mentality behind God's commands in the OT and what ISIS terrorists do. I'm just saying that the deeds themselves are somewhat similar, that's all.

 

[Achilles6129]

Just as kind of an FYI for anyone interested in this thread: I find that many theologians/philosophers and other people interested in religion attempt to soften certain texts in the OT that aren't meant to be softened. In other words, they paint a very generous portrait that I don't believe is meant to be painted. I think that people just need to stare the Bible straight in the eye and admit the truth to themselves: God is a God who brutally tortures and kills those who disobey his commands.

 

[katerinah1947]

Just as kind of an FYI for anyone interested in this thread: I find that many theologians/philosophers and other people interested in religion attempt to soften certain texts in the OT that aren't meant to be softened. In other words, they paint a very generous portrait that I don't believe is meant to be painted. I think that people just need to stare the Bible straight in the eye and admit the truth to themselves: God is a God who brutally tortures and kills those who disobey his commands.

Hi,

Many apologists are liars.

You are not the only one to notice that, if you feel like you are the only one who knows and can confirm that.

As far as A God, Who Is Tender and Mild, yet also Has Done All That you say, think of that in terms of Love and what Love requires, if a person or God, Truly Loves.,

Perhaps mothers who need to correct an errant child, is the closest thing we have to God of The Bible, in correcting anyone.,

Sodom and Gamorrah was about protecting others from their cruel ways. It is not correct to say, that everyone of the males and females had a problem with attractions to the same gender, as in nature now, and probably then, the ratio of naturalness in gender attractions to the same gender is about 10% or so.

Instead, these were people we call straight people, physically assaulting other straight people.

And they engaged not only in same sex relations, forcible ones with other straight people, they also abused women in rape style, as is mentioned there.

Biblically, from others, it is said it was their mean ways that God, acted upon.

Notice, God made sure everyone was guilty before acting. That conversation with God and Abraham let us know that.

What would a loving mother do, if her children were doing what those people were doing to others, and would not change for her?

What?

And, how would everyone perceive that mother, who acted that way, and did not know why?

LOVE,

 

[BobRyan]

We're all aware of the barbarity that ISIS terrorists have displayed towards anyone outside of their organization.

And we are aware of similar things done in the dark ages by the RCC against 50 million or 100 million saints - over a period of time covering 1260 years.

We're also all aware that Western society (including, of course, modern Christianity) is basically horrified by their actions and that they have become the new face of evil for many in the West. However, there is something here that I think is worth considering from a theological standpoint (and I want to be careful how I say this):

In the Old Testament God commands things that are very similar, though perhaps not the exact same, to what ISIS terrorists do. Obviously the nature of God can never change.

God destroyed the entire world in the flood - leaving only 8 people alive. If you put ISIS in "God's chair" then they have considerably more latitude to do far more damage to the planet than they have done.

In both the case of ISIS and the case of the RCC in the dark ages the problem is that neither of them were in a Theocracy and neither were acting at the direction of God - although BOTH would CLAIM to be.

BOTH ISIS and the RCC operate in the NEW Testament age of the "persecuted church" model given to us by NT authors of the NT text - and in that model there is nobody getting approval from God for torturing anyone and then killing them.

What is more EVEN in the OT model there is nobody 'getting tortured to convert' - at all.

Indeed, the New Testament also has a great deal of violence in it: there's violence in the statements of Jesus Christ and there's an enormous amount of violence in the book of Revelation.

That is not true. Jesus does not tell us to torture anyone to convert - nor to kill or torture anyone that does not convert.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Just as kind of an FYI for anyone interested in this thread: I find that many theologians/philosophers and other people interested in religion attempt to soften certain texts in the OT that aren't meant to be softened. In other words, they paint a very generous portrait that I don't believe is meant to be painted. I think that people just need to stare the Bible straight in the eye and admit the truth to themselves: God is a God who brutally tortures and kills those who disobey his commands.

So, do you mean to say that as long as the killing isn't brutal and tortuous, then it's ok, Achilles? (This is just meant to be a philosophical question, and not as a cheap shot, by the way.)

 

[Hieronymus]

I think that ISIS terrorists also raise questions about God's (apparent) lack of intervention. Though, obviously, reading human history also raises the same questions. Anyone want to comment on that?

Sure.
God has kind of let the world go its way, until The Day of the LORD.

 

[Achilles6129]

BOTH ISIS and the RCC operate in the NEW Testament age of the "persecuted church" model given to us by NT authors of the NT text - and in that model there is nobody getting approval from God for torturing anyone and then killing them.

Except the two witnesses.

That is not true. Jesus does not tell us to torture anyone to convert - nor to kill or torture anyone that does not convert.

That's not what I said: I said that there is a considerable amount of violence in the statements of Jesus Christ and also in the Revelation of Jesus Christ. I was correct.

 

[Achilles6129]

Sure.
God has kind of let the world go its way, until The Day of the LORD.

Why?

 

[Achilles6129]

So, do you mean to say that as long as the killing isn't brutal and tortuous, then it's ok, Achilles? (This is just meant to be a philosophical question, and not as a cheap shot, by the way.)

I don't really understand what you're asking. I was commenting on the fact that God brutally tortures and kills everyone who disobeys his commands in Scripture. That's the real God (and the real Christ) of the Bible. That's the God and the Christ that people should embrace.

 

[Hieronymus]

Why?

He decided to let the wheat grow along with the thorns and thistles, and then harvest the lot, keeping the wheat, burning the rest.
Earth is a tough school, but it probably produces 'everlasting wheat'.

Iḿ unable to make it sound any better, sorry...

 

[JBaker45]

Your profile indicates you are intelligent, and it looks like your read the Bible. Do you honestly think our HOLY CREATOR G-D did anything whatsoever that compares with ISIS? You are making a seriously flawed comparison!

Surra 9:29 is one that every Christian should know.

Quran (Usama Dakdok translation) 9:29 Engage in war with those who do not believe in Allah and in the last day. And do not forbid what Allah and his messenger (Mohammad) forbid, and do not believe in the religion of the truth (Islam) among those who have been given the book (Jews and Christians) until they pay the jizya (protection money) and they are subdued.

I do not believe that the old testament proscribes anything resembling this toward non-Jews.

 

[Hieronymus]

I don't really understand what you're asking. I was commenting on the fact that God brutally tortures and kills everyone who disobeys his commands in Scripture.

No torture, annihilation.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I don't really understand what you're asking. I was commenting on the fact that God brutally tortures and kills everyone who disobeys his commands in Scripture. That's the real God (and the real Christ) of the Bible. That's the God and the Christ that people should embrace.

So, you mean like how Adam and Eve were brutally tortured and killed? Or like how Jesus was brutally tortured and killed?